Beginnning question here. I keep wondering if a biscuit cutter would be a welcome addition to my woodshop. I’ve got several large cabinet projects that I’m still designing, and really want to do. I’m an advanced beginner and can really only work on weekends, so time is of consideration. I’m too tired evenings to be safe in the shop. OR should I make myself learn to do proper mortise and tenon joints.
If biscuit cutter is a good idea – advice on what to buy?
Thanks..
Replies
Biscuit joiners are great!
For Large carcass work with plywood cabinets I think that they are quick, efficient and effective. If you are looking to teach yourself higher skills then make mortise and tenons. It will drive you nuts for awhile but you WILL learn. But it sounds to me like you don't have all day to play around and need to get work done when you are on the site, so I would advise a bicuit joiner.
Cheers
It depends on what you want to use it for. I use the Biscuit jointer for things that are gonna be seen. I use a pocket hole jig for everything else. If its paint grade I use the pocket hole jig for it also. For Cab doors and drawers theres router bits designed for them. It all depends on what your going to do.
Darkworks: We support the US military "We kick your #### and take your gas"
As to which one to choose, there are several good ones out there, but I've always hankered after the Porter Cable model that can cut both regular biscuit slots and the mini-slots for the much smaller biscuits.
I bought the improved model that Freud put out a couple of years ago, because the price was right and it gets decent reviews. Figured I wouldn't be using it so much that the couple of shortcomings sited in the reviews would be a big deal to me.
One of the applications that intrigues me is the installation of specialized hinges in cabinets. They are hinges in the shape of the biscuit slot, so you can slot the door and frame simultaneously and they put the hinges in the resulting mortise.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
i'm a prpfessional cabinet maker finish carpenter and i use a bicuit joiner everyday and wouldnt work without it. for joining sheet goods it cant be beat and for things like joining face frames to carcasses, no nails, just clamp eith filament tape for 25 minutes.
it's a tool i bought for a particular job but have found many uses for since
i us e the porter cable unit(dont know model number) but looks like a grnder with a fancy fence system
I have the freud js 102 biscuit jointer its a great tool at a great price..one of those more bang for your buck type of tools...
ToolDoc
AmP,
As others have mentioned, it's a very useful tool for joining boards, face frames and hard wood to plywood shelves. In many cases you really don't need biscuits the glue should do it but, it aligns and makes it that much stronger. Many have argued and presented studies that say it is suitable for M&T replacement however, I have only used it once with a very light door..so far so good.
Recently there was a tread on Biscuit joiners ..which one was best. My sense was they were all pretty good and only a few of us have had more than one model. good luck
Thank you all.
I see confirmation that in fact it's a good tool to have. I sort of got my answer as I was writing my question..How much time. I have realistically to be in the shop... I wish I had more to play in teh workshop but don't. I spent the money to download article on which one is best and am now the owner of a Porter Cable 575. (Bought at Sears, found out Home Deport would have been $10 cheaper.) I figured it's one of those tools where spending good money was well worth it, several times over.
No one has told me it is a waste of money. That's great.
Again thanks for confirming...
AmP,
The answer to the questions "Do I need this tool"? "Should I buy this tool?" "Should I get one?", is Always: YES!
Toys, toys, toys! Have fun with it.
Oh, if your married, build something (anything) right away with it. Helps justify the purchase.
Enjoy, Roy
We need you over in the Jointer vs. Bandsaw thread, where Mr. Stanford's trying to convince us all that tools are not toys, and we should make everything by non-electrified handiwork. ROFL! The Great Debate.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Tools aren't toys??!! I've been trying to convince my wife of this for over 10 years. Of course every time I go for a new purchase she asks why, and then procedes to go through the list of projects that are still undone in our house. It's like the cobbeler's kids that have no shoes. I'm building the 3rd kitchen this year for others and ours is still vintage '76. I try to convince her that if I do more of these other projects I can buy more tools, which makes my work faster so I can buy more tools, so I can get more jobs done and get to ours(someday). I don't think it will work much longer though.
Ahhhhh, I think I've seen that syndrome before! I'll tell you a secret (shhhhhhh! c'mere) If you clench your teeth, get a grip, gird your loins and DO IT, you will be an absolute hero!!!!! It'll do more for your marriage than all the diamonds, flowers and chocolate in the world!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I know, I know. It's already on the calander for June. If the early summer rainbow fishing isn't too good. :)
You have a GOOD point for all. And I have my comment about the subject too,
Worked for years doweling everything and was spending more time on it ,and then had to re-a-line the dowel when I started assembling it, so I tried a biscket cutter and never went back to dowels , only for stretchers on chairs. and it's much faster. Take the advice of the pro's or ones with the experience!!
Hi Roy
Love your logic, you must have a good partner. Being a tool junkie is a non curable disease.! If you pull a piece of string it is strong.
Mac
I am trying to decide whether all of these posts about the size and proper cooking temperature of biscuits are a joke. Am I being dull here? Ed, Steve, Jon - you guys can't answer.
yes freud
see I did it without 10 paragraphs of analyzation too
It would be a very welcome addition if you work in sheet goods.
I'm always late and short of change but...
for the sake of discussion, I have a Dewalt and enjoy it very much. I would recommend one. But I have used and occasionally still do, a router slot bit with a table mounted router. It's a cheaper alternative if money is an issue and, from my experiance, works just as well.
Depending on what your woodworking ambitions are, i.e. what do you want to make, I would definately take the time at some point to learn the mortise and tenon joint. Both for the strength and the beauty of the joint. I've recently got on an Arts and Crafts kick and the exposed mortise and tenon joint is absolutely essential. It's shows a level of skill and gives your piece a structural honesty that is for me an important aesthetic. I use my router for that also - a spiral upcut for the mortise and a mortising bit for the mortise.
Learning is what keeps us young.
Good luck.
Others have already answered "yes," so I don't have to add to that, but you might think about a router slot cutter designed for biscuit work to see if they work for your designs. Joiners are much more versatile, but this might give you a feel for working with biscuits to see if you want to spend the money in order to do them faster. I did this for years before buying a joiner; ran into a project that just could not be done with a router/slot cutter.
Dissenting opinion:
1) Biscuits are splines. They are for alignment and should not be considered a structural joint.
2) If you really get your stock flat before glue up you probably do not need them for alignment.
If I was a professional cabinet maker working under production pressures I'd probably be more enthusiatic.
Frank
Counter dissent, Frank:
1. Yup, they are splines, but have excellent strength for many purposes. There was a semi-scientific test in FWW a while back that looked at mortise and tenon, biscuits, lag screws, and glued tongue and groove (possibly some others). Joints were stressed with a hydraulic press to failure. Double biscuits took the most pressure before failure, even more than mortise and tenon, but failed completely; the mortise and tenon joint failed at a lower pressure point, but held together rather than separating into two pieces. The test was short on sample size--one joint per test is a test of those joints in those particular pieces of stock, and wood is never completely uniform. Still, this particular example showed that the inherent structural strength of biscuits is in the same league as traditional mortise and tenon joints.
That said, I generally use them for pieces that will convey with the house, will be painted (daughter loves bright colors--hopefully taste will kick in with adolescence), or is otherwise intended as a quick, informal project.
They ARE an excellent structural joint; just one that could be seen as cheesy for certain applications. :)
2. They definitely help with alignment even with perfectly flat stock and top/bottom restraints; I have never run across a high-friction glue, and finding that boards have slipped 1/8" out of alignment 15 minutes after setting the clamps can ruin a whole morning.
Cheers!
/jvs
JVS,
Thanks for your reply. Nonetheless, I would never use a spline of any sort in a joint that I thought would take any sort of weight or torque. How a thin spline would sustain as fuch force to breakage as a properly made MT joint with a 1/2 inch tenon with a much bigger glue surface area is not clear to me.
I could see how maybe they would be handy for some applications and I do use them in gluing up boards at times.
Frank
It makes no sense to me, either, Frank. I had heard things about the strength, and did my own non-scientific test by offsetting two pieces of scrap with a single biscuit between them (glue only on the biscuit itself plus minor squeeze-out that i couldn't clean up in the last 1/4" before closing the gap), letting it set up overnight, and then squeezing the assembly in a vise. the ends of the 7/8" cherry crushed like circus tent pegs, the board cracked above and below where the slot was cut, but the biscuit was fine. Weird, but I trust them more than I would have thought....
/jvs
JVS,
Interesting! You may be right. However, I would be interested in what happens if you apply force across the joint (perpendicular to the long axis of the biscuit). Torsional force down the long axis would also be important to assay as that is really what you see in things like chair stretchers and carcases around drawers.
Regards,
Frank
Agreed, despite what I have seen, I would worry, too, at that end of the mechanical strain spectrum.
An example of the "quick/informal/for a todder anyway" project is below. Soft maple, left over from a moulding project, two sheets of birch-veneer plywood, analine dye in deep magenta and forest green (colors only approximate in graphic), with water-based acrylic. Not what anyone would call fine furniture, but it was a weekend project (plus finishing) for a basement playroom. Thus, biscuits, glue, and screws...
http://66.95.232.147/icons/sophia-play.jpg
I believe the scientific answer has to do with the orientation of the biscuits. They are diagonal to the joint, which apparently helps greatly with strength.
Hi AmP
I´m an American professional woodworker in Germany....my advice??
A biscuit cutter is a wonderful mashine both in the shop and on job-sites. I spent
3 years building interior designs for pharmacies and it was our most important
tool (exept our circular saw). As for which make....the original Lamello is my choice
it´s extremely expensive but very rugged...I own an Elu which is the same as
Dewalt...
I just recently bought a maschine like a biscuit cutter but it has 2 drill bits instead
of a cutter...it´s from Mafell in Germany.
OK..have lots of fun with your new biscuit cutter...which ever you choose.
[email protected]
AmP,
I used 2 different biscuit cutters (Porter Cable and Dewalt) and found two problems. First I found that the depth on the Porter Cable changed as I cut the slots to align a pair of red oak boards; I think that I may not have clamped the depth sufficiently. In the case of the Dewalt I found that the biscuit fitted very tightly in the slot and when I came to glue up I had a terrible time closing up the joint. I then tried hammering and sanding the biscuits to make them thinner; this was time consuming and difficult to do consistently. Still there were problems because there was no control over the process. Finally I decided to buy a Lamello Biscuit Joiner. It has an adjustable depth which changes by 0.004" per indent or "click" In this way I cut the slots wider in a controlled manner and now my biscuit fitting is much easier. Discussions with others including Garret Hack indicated that the tightness of biscuits is a common problem, sometimes due to poor quality control of the biscuits, sometimes due to moisture. (I keep mine in a plastic zip lock bag). I think it important that you think about this aspect as you consider your choice of machine. I would be interested in any comments on this problem and also how it was solved.
davidh
Edited 3/27/2003 2:18:05 PM ET by davidh
Edited 3/27/2003 2:18:55 PM ET by davidh
I've never had a biscuit seem "too tight" for the slot, and I use a DeWALT joiner.
But if your biscuits are "too tight", it would seem to me that simply putting them in a metal vise and squeezing them would, temporarily, get them working. The glue would allow them to expand back to their nominal size and the glue-up would proceed correctly. The hammer thing sounds very low tech and time consuming.
John
Unfortunately I do not have a metal vice. It seems to me that the force necessary to crush the biscuit might exceed the crush strength of the faces of my wood vice and result in a vice that loses its grip or parralellism. Does this work for you? What type of vice do you use?
Also you are quite right. Hammering the biscuits (which I agree is very low tech-brute force if you will) or sanding them took too much time; that is why I use the Lamello to control the cut slot width.
davidh
I am not sure I really understand your problem. By "width" do you mean the thickness of the kerf, or do you mean the depth of the kerf? My DeWALT has three settings for biscuits, so that I can cut a kerf for the three biscuit sizes. If the biscuits don't fit it is not due to the depth of the kerf, it's because the biscuit is too "thick". But I've never had a biscuit that wouldn't go in with some clamping pressure (clamp both pieces and the biscuit is shoved into the slots).
If you have to use your Lamello to cut the kerf and then readjust it so that you make a kerf that is larger (i.e., a thicker biscuit can be inserted), something is wrong. I'd get a new batch of biscuits and keep them in a controlled environment.
John
P.S. A metal vise is very cheap and is a good thing to have in a shop. I wouldn't use a wood vise for lots of things that have to be "pounded".
John,
My problem is the thickness of the kerf. The width of the biscuit is controlled by selection of the biscuit size and has plenty of leeway. It is surprising to me to find that others do not see this problem because up until now I have had numerous conversations with woodworkers, all of whom have experienced the same problem. At first I had concluded that the problem had to do with moisture and movement. Since I again had the problem with a fresh batch of biscuits which I purchased from Lamello, which seems to be a quality oriented company, and as a result of my other conversations, I thought that this was a common problem resulting from one or both of quality control and moisture. The conclusion I drew was that it is necessary to be able to vary the kerf in order to accommodate the variation in biscuit thickness. I find that frequently I can insert biscuits into a single cut kerf and after dry assembly they are so tight that I have to remove them with pliers, occasionally breaking the biscuit! any other comments/suggestions would be welcomed. Always willing to learn
davidh
Hmmm. You've got a Lamello joiner and Lamello biscuits, and they really don't work correctly? Could it be that the teeth on your blade are not the right size? Lamello is the king of biscuit joiners and this just doesn't sound right. With my DeWALT I've never had a biscuit refuse to go in (dry), and they can be removed when dry by hand. When I do a glue-up some biscuits don't do all the way in but the clamping pressure works like a champ.
I'd check the blade of your joiner. (The biscuits I use are Porter Cable and the ones you can get by the boxfull at Woodworker's Supply.)
John
John,
You have stimulated me to action again to try and understand this problem. I will use a pair of calipers to check the blade thickness (kerf) and also the thickness of the biscuits. The package of biscuits have been opened for some time now and, despite being stored with the desiccant, they may have absorbed some moisture. I think that I will also heat a few biscuits in the oven to 220 degrees F as suggested by Tom Ferreira and check what change in dimension results. I will post the results when I have completed the checks but I do not think that I will get to it for a few days. Thank you for your suggestions
davidh
Guys, this all getting a bit pedantic. Just use the biscuit jointer, cut the slots, and shove a biscuit in. The blade makers have generally got the kerf thing worked out just so, but it is true that you might get a really bad blade-- very rare.
It's no big deal. You pick out a bunch of biscuits prior to doing the actual glue up, test each biscuit, and some spare, that you plan to use in a random slot or two, and if the biscuit's too tight to fit easily when dry you toss the biscuit into the round file-- aka, the bucket. The same for the really sloppy biscuits too.
The ones that slip in reasonably easily when dry, and not sloppily, you use. The ones that don't-- who cares? I buy 10,000 biscuits at a time for about $30-- I'm not going to get all knicker twisted about 200 or 300 that are a bit fat, or skinny-- oh, I always buy Lamello biscuits-- the Porter-Cable ones, for instance, have always proven to be flaky, and essentially junk-- complete waste of money. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.
You get a hell of deal on Lamello biscuits Richard ,I pay about that for a 1000 ! <g>
jako, I thought I'd better double check the price after your comment, so I pulled up some reports from my accounts. I was a bit low. I paid $36 for 10,000 no. 20's and $35 for 10,000 no. 10's. in December '01. I don't suppose i'll buy a new box for a year or two though, ha, ha. Ha. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.
Richard,
Would you care to share your supplier of Lamello biscuits with us? For that price I'll order some ... even if it's gone up 50% I'll order some. Thanks.
John
Sorry, jako. Sorry, John. I really messed up and gave bad information. I looked at my boxes of biscuits earlier, and, er-- whoops. There's only 1,000 per box. So apologies all around for trying to lead you all astray-- well apparently not really, as you were both rightfully sceptical anyway. For some reason, I'd got in my mind there were 10,000, duh. But I do typically pay about $35 a go for a 1,000. Sorry again. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.
We just thought jealously " that canny Scot has us beat again" not just at cabinet making but at forging deals ! <g>
The next thing we will hear about is a large Delta tool used to shape biscuits.
I think the microwave would work, no? Quicker too.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl, others interested
You forgot to include the recipe! I microwaved 10 biscuits for 5 minutes with an average dimensional change of about 2 mils; concluded that I needed more time so I cooked them for another 10 minutes. Result was two blackened and one very brown biscuit. the rest were OK. The max change I saw was 5 mils. I do not have the details of the biscuit thicknesses initially or after microwaving with me and so I will share those later. I think that the thinnest was 0.157 initially. Also I measured the blade and the body of the blade was 0.116 inches and across a single tooth 0.141. allowing for the kerf extending on both sides suggests that the perfect blade would cut a 0.156 inch kerf. I have yet to check what the actual kerf cut by the blade is.
davidh
The precise measurement for a new Lamello blade is 4mm Therefore it is 0.15748 inches. Simply put if it doesn't cut that width talk to Colonial Saw re purchase of a new blade. Just for fun I ran a micrometer over a lot of Lamello biscuits and came up with 0.151in average ie 3.8354mm .Incidentally not one of the boxes of 1000 Lamello biscuits in my possession are packed in plastic or include desiccant
Jako,
Just for fun I ran a micrometer over a lot of Lamello biscuits and came up with 0.151in average ie 3.8354mm
What was the sample size and the standard deviation? This is important because the complaint was that only some of the biscuits were too big. Given this information we could calculate the Z-score allowing us to predict the number defective in the population within a confidence interval.
Incidentally not one of the boxes of 1000 Lamello biscuits in my possession are packed in plastic or include desiccant
I don't understand your point here. Are you saying that because Lamello doesn't use desicant it's not needed or helpful?
TDF
1 A visit to the lamello web site will give you the percentage of rejects to expect
2 The point I was making was that I have never seen the boxes of 1000 biscuits either wrapped in plastic or including a desiccant .The boxes are of a folded card construction which I find surprising given lamello's overall quality.However I have found them to have fewer oversize than other makes .This may be due to the wholesaler having a faster turnover than other suppliers
Jako and Tom,
Thank you for your inputs. I still do not have the numbers with me because I left them in my shop. However I seem to remember that the thinnest biscuit started at 0.156. I think most were around 0.157-.158. After 5 mins in the microwave the typical change was only about 0.002, that's why I really "cooked" them. The additional change was small, at most 0.001 to 0.002. This suggests that most would still be a tight interference fit.
My biscuits were delivered in a cardboard box as described, some in plastic, some not-no desiccant. I have placed them in a plastic container with desiccant after talking to other woodworkers about the problem. They are now about six to eight months old. I was wondering if, due to the construction once they swell due to moisture perhaps they do not shrink back totally to original dimension when dried out. I have not found one as small as 0.151! I have been doing what another contributor suggested to get my jobs done, just using the ones that fit. However my curiosity was stimulated because I did not understand what was going on and I found myself giving advice on something I did not fully understand-and still do not, at least not yet. Thank you both again for your inputs; they have helped. I hope someday to get to the bottom of this. Meanwhile I will still continue to use biscuits!!
davidh
David,
Even though they have been opened "for a while now" you are keeping the lid on or the bag tightly closed, right? Even the best desiccant does not work indefinitely. Get some new desiccant or toss the old one in a 250 degree oven for an hour to drive off the absorbed moisture.
In answer to FG's microwave question/statement, Yes, it works very well. I was helping to teach a class building a face frame book shelf and they were using dowels for the face frames. As they started putting in the dowels, only 1 in 10 fit. I grabbed a hand full popped them in the microwave for 2 minutes and like magic, they fit! I can't imagine that it would not work for biscuits.
Dr. Bill
Dr Bill,
I sore the biscuits in a plastic container which I believe to be relatively airtight. I have not "recharged" the dessicant and it has been about six months since I bought the biscuits. How often should I heat it?
davidh
Once, when you're about to use them. Glad we don't have to pre-toast our toast!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The beauty of that white bread that sticks in the roof of your mouth is that it fits any size slot and is pre glued.The ultimate solution no more measuring one size fits all! <g>
Good idea. Do you recommend the peanut butter lubricant? Or, the resourcinal-colored glue?
forestgirl,
Sorry I was not clear; I was asking about heating the desiccant
to re-activate it.
davidh
I store my biscuits in a sealed plastic container with a desicant pack inside. If the biscuits are tight they have probably absorbed moisture. You could put them in the oven at 200 degrees F or so for an hour or two to dry them out. You need to store them with desicant to maintain the moisture level.
TDF
Tom,
I had this problem even with biscuits that I received from Lamello which were in a sealed pack with dessicant. Someone also suggested the idea of using an oven to"dry" them out but I have not had the opportunity to try that yet. Next time I do some biscuit work I will try it to see if it works. Thank you for reminding me.
davidh
AmP:
I owned a DeWalt biscuit joiner for a while -- as a matter of fact I just sold it last week. If you are going to buy a biscuit joiner, the DeWalt is nice. (If you need some Lamello biscuits let me know -- I've got a couple of boxes of them left over).
As for biscuit joinery generally, I found that as I developed my skills I used it less and less. Finally, a couple of weeks ago, it dawned on me that my biscuit joiner had been sitting unused for quite a while.
As far as strength is concerned, I am pretty certain biscuit joints offer good strength IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. In projects with little stress on the joint they are OK. They are also OK for small shelf units (replacing dadoes) with a span of under 20" (my opinion).
As far as time is concerned, I don't believe biscuits really save you much. For example, if you use biscuits to align boards, you have to spend the time laying out the boards and marking the lines, then doing all the plunge cuts. Then you have the annoying task of dry fitting every biscuit to make sure it fits neatly in each slot. That's right, you can't count on biscuits to be uniform thickness -- some are too thin and some are too thick. Then you have to spend your time putting just the right amount of glue in each slot. Instead of all this, I made a simple jig that squeezes my boards down as I clamp them so they don't buckle, and I use cauls on the ends to stop boards from shifting around. Very simple setup. My glue-ups are faster now that I DO NOT use biscuits.
For mortise and tenon joints, I use my bandsaw to cut the tenons, and I rout my mortises on a router table. I am about to buy a mortiser for this. You can also cut your tenons on the table saw or on the router table. The mortiser costs as much as the biscuit joiner.
And I found that dadoes are plain and simple to do either on the router table or with a free-hand router (I DO NOT do dadoes on the table saw). Doing dadoes these other ways is faster than using a biscuit joiner.
If you are interested in making furniture, I think a biscuit joiner can be helpful in a few projects. But in my opinion, you'll see that, over a short time, you'll start to favor other methods.
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