Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | May 10, 2002 07:26pm | #1

   Ahhhh, yes, Made in America.  Pardon me for being so cynical, but it seems every time the Delta/Jet/Grizzly conversation recycles, someone jumps in and says they only buy Delta because Delta is made in the US, and Jet and Grizzly are "made overseas" or "made in Taiwan" or "made in one of those Asian countries."  Delta is not perfect!

   Don, I am so glad you weren't hurt, and the accident happened to someone who could emerge unscathed!

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   Andrew | May 10, 2002 07:57pm | #2

   I believe the delta 20" is made in Taiwan as well. the only company that still makes a drill press in north America is general if I'm not mistaken. the problem is that no one wants to pay $1300 for a 15" Canadian made drill press when you could buy a 20" import for less. if only the consumers knew what kind of corners are being cut in order to keep prices low.

   it's good to hear that your alright don, and give delta hell for sending you a piece of junk.

2. 
   Alan | May 10, 2002 07:59pm | #3

   Don,

   I think "school shop" explains more than "Delta" or "made in America."  I know when I was in shop class we spent an enormous amount of energy and ingenuity figuring out ways to vex the teacher and get out of doing anything that resembled conscientious work.  That included abusing the tools--not out of malice or any real desire to hurt the tools, but out of adolescent energy, lack of experience as to damage we could do, and an immature sense of fun.  (If I'd spent a fraction of the amount of energy I used cutting up to actually learning something...sigh.)  I don't think kids have changed that much since.....never mind.  Remember that the best way to remove old cast iron pipes is to knock them to pieces with a hammer:  cast iron can be very easily broken.

   I'm not saying anyone did anything deliberately; but unmalicious horseplay and disinterested neglect can explain a lot of "mysterious" goings on at school.

   Alan

1. 
   bill_1010 | May 11, 2002 01:42am | #4

   every delta drill press ive seen (most all other brands too) are made in china

1. 
   Biscardi | May 11, 2002 03:36am | #5

   Gross generalization perhaps, but I think this is true. . .

   If it is made in China it isn't necessarilly junk. If it is made in China and is cast iron  it probably is junk. If it is made in China and looks machined but is actually cast you can bet your sister's shoelaces it is an unmitigated piece of goat crut.

   Edited 5/10/2002 8:42:23 PM ET by BISCARDI

1. 
   Sancho | May 12, 2002 06:02pm | #6

   Hey frank good to see ya still hanging out here...

   Yea most of the tools are made in Taiwan or China but like Deltas "Made in America" is assembled here. In fact I think most of the tools are made from just a handful of manufacturers. They are manufactered to different specs and quality requirements thus the difference in prices. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

1. 
   Biscardi | May 12, 2002 10:20pm | #7

   Ron,

   I've mostly been lurking, but I'm still around.

   Things are very busy here.I'm building a house, selling a house and working on a very interesting desk on frame. I'll try to post a picture if I ever get it done.

   Thanks

   Frank

2. 
   sschefer | May 13, 2002 08:42am | #8

   Frank, lighten up... Taiwan is an island off the coast of China. The people in Taiwan are Chinese. So... what does that tell you... Absolutely nothing my friend. Its not who or where, its how much... If American manufacturers are looking to save money, its really simple to do. You just farm all of it out to a foriegn counttry and don't pay them anything to produce it. Then when your product line goes bad, you just tell everyone "what did you expect, its made in China". Steve - in Northern California

3. 
   PMurrett | May 13, 2002 04:59pm | #9

    Well I’ll wade into this mess. . . . .

   We are all grateful that Don wasn’t seriously hurt.  There is no excuse for how his drill press performed regardless if it was manufactured in the Far East or Trenton, NJ.

   I am old enough to remember when we used another country – Japan -- to characterize something as cheap and of poor quality, as in “cheap Japanese transistor radio.”  Since that time the Japanese have taught us a ting or two about quality and have performed a complete turnaround.  People now brag “it’s a Sony!”  I also remember a time in the 60’s and early 70’s when a Japanese car was immediately thought to be cheap and of inferior quality.  It wasn’t too long before Acura, Toyota, Infinity, Honda, and others proved to be more responsive to the market than their Detroit brethren and put that to rest.

   There is a lesson here.

   I also remember not too long ago when no self respecting woodworker could utter the phrase “Taiwanese tools manufacturer” without a curl of the lip and a sneer in their voice.  Of course, that was before almost every US manufacturer started sourcing parts or doing the whole thing in Taiwan.  I think most of us would agree that, for the most part, these tools offer exceptional value and the quality & customer service offered is either exceptional or, at worse, improving.

   But the direction of this thread is not appealing.  Just below the surface of “What do you expect, it’s made in China” are other equally bigoted notions including all Italians are in the mob, Irish are drunks, Mexicans are lazy, and girls are bad at math.

   Steve, not too long ago you started a terrific thread asking that we all show a more courtesy and respect here and, for the most part, it has had the desired effect.  Is it too much to further elevate the discussion by dispensing with the irrelevant xenophobic raciest remarks?

   PMM

1. 
   Bengst | May 13, 2002 06:04pm | #10

   Thank you Paul, you read my mind.

   Jeffrey 

2. 
   bill_1010 | May 14, 2002 01:01am | #14

   --

   But the direction of this thread is not appealing.  Just below the surface of “What do you expect, it’s made in China” are other equally bigoted notions including all Italians are in the mob, Irish are drunks, Mexicans are lazy, and girls are bad at math.

   Steve, not too long ago you started a terrific thread asking that we all show a more courtesy and respect here and, for the most part, it has had the desired effect.  Is it too much to further elevate the discussion by dispensing with the irrelevant xenophobic raciest remarks?

   PMM

    

   Why do people like you always assume its about race?

   The fact of the matter is Quality isnt as good in china as other places. taiwan quality isnt the same as chinese quality.   Junk is made here in North America as well. By your assumption, a car made in either North America or China or Poland is of the same quality.  Regardless of the metals and alloys and machines and blueprints. People follow a certain standard according to the boss.  However you call anyone who talks bad about stuff made in china a racist and xenophobe from your supposed high horse.  And you ask to show respect even though you make assumptions that we all think its racist. And i scroll back to see those racist remarks and dont rteally find one. Hmmm ironic isnt it.... youre the one bringing up racist notions that arent on this thread.

    

1. 
   quatersawn | May 14, 2002 01:19am | #15

   Frankly, I don't hear a racist remark in the whole thread. I believe Steve stated it wasn't "who, or where...." but the choice of the manufacturer to cut costs, and I have mic'd out enough machine parts in my time to know that tolerances  and manufacturing practices vary widely around the globe. So, Racist remarks???? Sorry guys, didn't hear it. I did hear sloppy quality control just underneath, no, on top of the conversation.

3. 
   Biscardi | May 14, 2002 05:59am | #16

   I did not say that all chinese tools were junk. I did say that such tools when made out of cast metal is of generally poor quality especially when it is finished to look like it was machined out of tool steel. I weigh only 130 pounds and yet I have broken several sockets from cheap sets that on closer inspection are clearly cast. I recently broke a c-clamp made in china while torquing it down by hand (actually that may have been aluminum).

   The quality of the metallurgy is not very good. It isn't racism to say that these folks are not making Sheffield steel.It is Ok to call a  pot metal spade a potmetal spade. If someone has been exceptionally impressed with Chinese steel please set me straight.

   Frank

1. 
   Sancho | May 14, 2002 06:16am | #17

   Some folks read into things anything they want. This discussion was not about race. It was about manufacturing tools in another country. If your going to get so sensitive then how are we supposed to continue this discussion. I guess we could always the country above the 38th paralell and to the east of Russia but they'd  find fault with also i guess Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

1. 
   forestgirl | May 14, 2002 08:30am | #18

   Actually, this discussion (as started by Don) was about an accident that happened in a shop.  I doubt that he anticipated (or welcomes) the turn it has taken, a turn for which I probably should take some responsibility, since I sniped first.  Sorry Don! 

   Don, was there any response from Delta?  Would love to know how they reacted to this situation.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   DonC | May 14, 2002 05:42pm | #19

   No response yet from Delta. It very early and it's in the hands of the Administration now. Probably really be slow now. HeHe

   By the way, I have lots of girls in my classes, they are the BEST! I love having them and they do equal work with all the males. The guys treat them with respect too.

   Someone made an earlier post talking about how they just screwed around/horseplayed in shop class due to imaturity. I have seen this in some guys classes as well ,BUT not in my class. If students are screwing around in class then the teacher is not doing his job right. My students are on task from entry to the room until clean-up is finished. My lesson plans don't allow for idle time. I also call Mon and Dad at the first hint of trouble. Communication with parents and respect to the students has earned me admiration from all my students.

   I just got my new issue fo Woodshop News today and there is a web site listed entitle,"Women in Woodworking". I hope all here will give it a visit.

   http://www.womeninwoodworking.com

   Thanks for all the concern over this accident and yes, I'm still sore.

   Don

2. 
   Sancho | May 14, 2002 06:06pm | #21

   Ive been to the site it pretty good,good info ect...reconmend it top anyone/everyone... Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

3. 
   Sancho | May 14, 2002 06:05pm | #20

   These threads tend to evolve into a "discussion" and sometimes(a lot more than not) they evolve from the basic question asked by the poster. This is normal for this type of thing. What i dont like is someone taking comments about where tools are manufactured and try to turn it into racism. With out any basis or substantion. If I say that tools manufactured in china are junk. Does that mean Im a racist... No, It means that I dont like there manufactureing techniques and the materials they use. It doesnt mean I hate Chinese or anyone else....Jeeeez No wonder most of the old timers have left...  Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

4. 
   forestgirl | May 14, 2002 07:43pm | #22

   Ron, hopefully, I've not accused anyone of racism.  However, what tends to get my dander up are "gross generalizations."  A statement that "tools manufactured in China are junk" falls into that category for me.  My belief is that there are several factors that go into the final quality of any particular tool, one of which is quality control.  Quality control over tools made in China has improved greatly over the past many years.  I also believe that the quality control exerted by one importing company can be quite different than that exerted by another company.  One can see evidence of that fact by simply looking at the fit and finish of the various tools that come from Chinese manufacturing plants.  They are not identical across the board.

   These differences are something that the consumer needs to be aware of when selecting tools.  There are definitely decent tools to be found in the lines that are made in China if one is careful in selecting them (doing research, querying others about their experiences, following up with the company immediately if a problem is found).   Personally, I've followed the Grizzly line the most closely because they have a sales outlet just 3 hours drive from me and their prices are generally within my budget.  There are many, many very happy Grizzly tool owners out there, some of whom use their table saw, jointer, whatever on a daily basis.  No doubt, given twice or thrice the funds, a much better tool could be found, but they are certainly not junk, as they perform the job and perform it well.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

5. 
   PMurrett | May 14, 2002 11:53pm | #23

   Well, that is what I get for actually making a comment and not just lurking (my preferred mode of participation).  Actually, when I re-read my own post even _I_ though it was a bit strident.

    

   Many of you have – as usual for this forum – made excellent points

    

   Okay, without name-calling, here is my point: 

   The source poor quality yesterday is many times the source of good quality today.  That, and generalizing often is unfair and inaccurate  -- e.g. “why do people like you always. . ."           ; )

    

   There, I’m done. 

   I’m going back to lurking -- I'm better at that.  Keep up the excellent commentary.

    

   PMM

   Edited 5/14/2002 8:02:29 PM ET by Paul_Murrett

6. 
   forestgirl | May 15, 2002 05:06am | #24

   Hiiiii Paul, glad you came out from behind the curtains, even if it was only temporary :-)

   This one didn't get toooo bad, I guess.  Don't know why, but ever since I was a little kid, I just get really upset when someone does the generalized "slam" sorta thing.  Silly me.

   Please peek out once in awhile, OK?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

7. 
   Sancho | May 15, 2002 05:46am | #25

   Paul,

   Dont go back into lurking, this one isnt even luke warm.  Its all good.

   FG,

    No one is disputing that thhe quality has improved in Chinese manufacturing techniques. in fact if you look at my original post I stated that almost all the tool manufacturers have there tools made there. They are just made under different specs. Jet is probably made at the same factory Delta is or even Ryobi, Its just got different q/a req. I just didnt and dont see the relationship to a discussion of where tools made and there q/a reqs and manufactureing techniques can be related to racism. I for one would go on a rant about brittish cars even though I like the new mini cooper but peoples opinions are exactly that opinions that people have a right to express. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

8. 
   Elcoholic | May 16, 2002 11:22pm | #26

   Ron,  the new Mini is a Beemer, it's the only thing BMW kept when they dumped Rover.

    Per an article I read somewhere in the not-to-distant past (maybe in FWW?), the level of QC exercised by a tool mfr. in say Taiwan is the responsibility of the buyer.  This is understood by both parties, up front.  If you as the buyer aren't making your presence known, then it's understood that you're willing to accept the run of the mill.  That's why there's such a variation among machines sharing the same castings made in the same factories.  Delta has say 20 QA people in the plant and Tradesman has 0.

   While we're debunking generalizations Jet cabinet saws are made in their own, dedicated factory in Taiwan and the Exacta Fence is made here in the USA.  We can no longer associate country of origin with name brand.  I gotta think the original failure that spawned this thread was a fluke, especially given cast iron's brittle nature.  I went to my last "The Wood Working Shows" a couple of years ago (too little to see and no real deals).  An exhibiter had a Powermatic 790A floor standing HC mortiser.  The goose-neck casting had a huge crack in it because:

   a)  Jet was in the process of buying and ruining Powermatic.

   b)  It was already made in Taiwan by Powermatic.

   c)  Some American idiot dropped it off a fork lift setting up the show.

   If you picked c) you'd be right and somewhere in the world, right now, someone will be flogging us fat, dumb and happy Americans.

   Curiously enough they also had the new big heavy duty Jet lathe that was never actually available from Jet.  They held it until after the merger, painted it PM gold and sell it as a PM.  I wonder how much the new paint job and sticker adds to the list price of that lathe?

   On shop pranks - 9th grade metals, my only shop class ever.  I guess I'm dating myself since it's been a long time since Jr. High's had shops, let alone high schools. Anyway start with 4" sheet steel triagles, tap them 'just so' into the 12" stand buffer, position triangle at precisely 4:30 and hit the switch therein sticking said triangle into the wood ceiling 16' above.  One day, infact the last day of triangle launching, a neophyte sets his triangle at 2:00 launching the triangle directly across the crowded shop to be embedded in the wall 6" from the instructor's head.  Panic stricken, he was frozen to the switch  when the instructor got off the floor.  Talk about getting busted.  It's a wonder no one was killed.  From there on out we stuck to throwing big wads of steel wool soaked in cutting oil into the forge when the instructor wasn't looking.  Definiately much safer :)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

9. 
   Sancho | May 17, 2002 06:30am | #27

   John,

   I agree with out and that was my point. You just expressed it better than I did. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

4. 
   btcinwood | May 18, 2002 08:14am | #28

   Paul....

   I absolutely agree.

   The issue here is not where it is made, but accountability of the manufacturer (distributor rather).

   Are we not woodworkers here? we know what happens when someone wants us to buils something for less than it should cost...

   We as consumers have a responsibility to understand the issue when it comes to low priced goods....wherever they are made.

   We can't have it both ways, 69 dollar vcr's that skip commercials and jingoism to boot.

   m

4. 
   blutt | May 13, 2002 08:11pm | #11

   Don,

   It is always good to hear that someone was able to deal with a potentially disasterous situation without harm. 

   Your experience has made me review the potential falure of equipment in my shop to try to comeup with safety solutions.  I have thought about guards, eye and ear protection but never really considered major equipment falure.  I have to say that a drill press coming down is right there at the top of the scary list.  Most other equipment is inherently stable as they are mounted on the floor, a falure would only mean replacing a part.  I for one will be bracing the top of my drill press to the wall.

   The one piece of equipment that I want nothing to do with is a radial arm saw, I am sure there are times when it would be handy to have, but I would say not worth it in the long run.

   Another situation I am uncomfortable with is a molding head on a shaper.  I had a tour of a local wood shop last fall and was astonished to hear that their shaper would throw the blades !!  There were holes in the walls !!  I have a shaper and have thought about getting a molding head but I do not know if it is worth the potential down side.  Has anyone had this problem ?

   Michael

1. 
   DonC | May 13, 2002 08:54pm | #12

   I agree about molding heads on shapers. I have seen shops that run one knife without a counterwieght on a 1-1/4" arbor. Their rationale was one knife does all the work even on a 3 cutter head anyway.  It's just a matter of time before a knife goes thru an operator abdomen and insurance will not pay to survivors.

   Don

1. 
   Andrew | May 14, 2002 12:40am | #13

   shapers are pretty scary tools with a giant cutter in them. if I get a shaper I would use the knives with corrugated backs as I highly doubt they would be going anywhere, plus they're much easier to set up.