Hi,
Need some advise on Handplanes. I am just starting to build my collection. I have a LN low angle block and a LN #4 smoother. (would have purchased the larger #4 1/2 but I have small hands. I’m not a big person! Most of my wood is dimensioned using my 13″ portable bench planer and my jointer. But there are times when a panel exceeds the size of my planer.
What other planes should I add to my collection? I was thinking of purchasing the LN #7 jointer plane. But which plane.. the bevel up or bevel down? I was also thinking about adding a small rabbeting plane . I realize the bevel up are less complicated.. no chipbreaker to worry about. lower center of gravity. You can change the bevel of the plane blade very easily (versatility) The mouth is easily adjusted by just turning the knob in front.
If I were to purchase a shoulder plane would you purchase a LN or LV I’ve heard that the LN are very well made and some people prefer the Lv shoulder over the LN. What sizes would I need.. 3/4″ 1/2″???
Wanda
Edited 10/14/2009 1:10 pm by Wanda200
Replies
While I'm not a pro, just a hobbyist, I have a few of the LN's. While its just a start, I had the following that has done me well.
Scrub plane for taking the frough stock down to a usable state.
The LN #7. What a tool! Love that one. Its real meat and the tool does the work.
Low angle Jack for doing figured wood where the #7 some times tears.
60 1/2 block is a sweet little tool that is perfect for the little things.
I'd love to have more but thats a good start.
I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.
George Burns
Hi bones,
You said you have the #7 LN jointer..Do you have the low angle jointer or bevel down jointer. I'm edging towards buying the low angle because it's less complicated. Easier to adjust. But then again I suppose it can't be more finicky than the smoother #4 to adjust. Hard to choose between the 2.
wanda
Wanda,Remember that old saying, "Now that I am up to my butt in alligators, I remembered that I was trying to drain the swamp."Roc and Derek are fun to read. Both have a lot of experience. Both have a lot of planes. Both have a lot of opinions that they each got from lots of experience.Why don't you do what Roc and Derek do, not what they say? Why not just buy a lot of planes and try them all, and then form your own opinions. This is a lot of fun, and you get to make your own decisions as to which is best for you. I highly recommend this, and it is easy. You don't have to decide which to buy. Buy em all.But you might not like that answer. So here is another. You described the woods you are using. You described the extent of your reading and knowledge about planes and their use in different situations. Roc and Derek love to study the fine points of planing. I believe you are after a more practical approach to woodworking. Based on what I have read, my guess is that given your situation, it won't make any difference which plane you buy. Take your pick. Buy one of them, and use it and use it and use it so that you become very proficient with it. I believe that for the woods you are using, and for your situation, any of the planes, including an old Stanley #7, which is what I use, would be just fine.Woodworking should be enjoyable. Each decision should not be traumatic. My approach to learning woodwork is the same as learning anything. I call it "incremental improvement". IMHO, the best way to learn anything is to do it, with whatever tools are available. Increase your skills. Then, when you are able to perceive instances in which the tool you are using is not doing what you want, then do some research to determine what the cause is, and get another tool which meets your needs in those circumstances. Trying to find "The best tool for you for all circumstances" before you gain some proficiency in the use of tools of that type is a fool's errand. It is like a beginning violin student worried about whether he should buy a $10M Stradivarius or a mere $10,000 nice violin, when he cant tell the difference between how the two sound.So, get an old Stanley #7, and fettle it, and use it. When you find some woods that it can't handle to your satisfaction, you are ready to think about asking the question that you started this thread with. It is AMAZING how much you can do with an old Stanley #7 that you have nicely fettled. And you are only out $60 or so, and a few hours of fettling. What works for Roc and Derek is not best for me. I use mostly the woods that you use and curly maple. I don't need a BU and a BD. Besides I have an old Sears powered jointer. I often joint the boards on the Sears, and then use my Stanley to remove the machine marks.Learning to use a #7 is not easy. It requires LOTS and LOTS and LOTs of practice. I know a number of people who have tried it and given up. It can be very frustrating. Some have bought fences for the planes. You can get a fence from LV. I don't recommend that. I recommend PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. When you get so that you are very confident of your jointing skills with a nicely fettled old Stanley, then explore other opportunities. Or take my first suggestion. Buy em all and have fun.Enjoy.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have the LV large and medium shoulder planes. I had the medium first. It's very comfortable to use, particularly for small hands. It performs very well on end grain and cross-grain -- shoulders, tenons, etc. with no tearout. It's only 11/16 wide, so you can use it to clean out the bottom of a 3/4 dado. I bought the large version for use on wider pieces; you can pare down a wide tenon with extra passes of the medium, but you get a faster more accurate result with the large. The large is heavy enough to use if you want for small stock with a shooting board. Both are extremely well made, and just about foolproof. I haven't used the LN, but I can't imagine that it's any better. One very useful feature is the variety of positions for the handles; you can fit the plane flush against the wall of either side of a cabinet interior to shave a smidgeon off a drawer support when you're fitting drawers. I wouldn't be without them.
Jim
> Bevel up or down ? <
Depends on the wood you work/plan on working.
I prefer bevel up for most of my planing. For most of my planing it is almost a necessity because the wood has been harder than most and some rowed wood and some difficult figure.
Softer woods don't require bevel up.
I will find a thread that was very uppity about all this and post it later when I find it.
> # 7 <
I have both a LN bevel down and a LV bevel up. See pics. Just for comparison sake I included a pic of a $10,000 jointer plane. Pretty isn't she ? No I don't own the plane. I just found the photograph.
(;) Philip do you have a pic of a jointer that you make ? You know for equal opportunity advertising purposes ?
Here is a past post that goes into # 7s a bit from my perspective .
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=47796.3
If you use the search feature of this site for the KNots forum you will get more to read on your topics than you could want.
Read a lot ! ! ! I would take the bucks that you are considering spending on the # 7 and spend it on books in stead.
>shoulder plane would you purchase a LN or LV<
LV no question I have the LNs so that is how I know. Had to return the big LN because it was not made right. The second one was made correctly but I prefer the adjuster and the added feature of the little set screws that keep the blade aligned on the LV. ( Back when I bought mine LV did not make a shoulder plane. )The LN adjuster causes the blade to skew. Blade to side of the plane relationship is critical in a shoulder plane. Drives me nuts when I get it almost right and then the adjuster causes the side of the blade to slew to one side.
I am saying:
• the LN is very well made as you said.
• It is possible to get a lemon. I did.
• The LV is a better design.
Quality of all of my LV Veritas planes have been even more precise than my LNs. And obviously are less money to boot. I did not buy on price but Veritas planes are hard to beat.
Get a big straight edge. More important than a long plane.
The last pic is of a table top I made from bubinga ( hard, difficult wood ) and all hand planed from scrub to joining the planks. I don't recommend this but it is good exercise.
: )
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/14/2009 9:52 pm by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 10/14/2009 11:36 pm by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 10/14/2009 11:39 pm by roc
OK this thread has a lot of view point on the bevel up and why it is bad, bad, bad.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=45038.1
Worth reading. I am still in the bevel up camp but the arguments for bevel down are from a plane maker with a lot of experience ( and investment in bevel down plane production ) .
So . . .
Read and plane, read and plane and think, read and plane and think, read and plane and think, read and plane and think, read and plane and think . .
roc
PS: gosh that thread does go on a bit doesn't it ? Here is a short cut if you like
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=45038.62
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/14/2009 10:20 pm by roc
Hi Wanda
Whether BU or BD in a jointer depends, as roc noted, on the types of woods you tend to use.
The advantage of BD is, for someone who prefers freehand honing, ease of sharpening. The disadvantage is that you may not have the wide range of woods that can be used successfully.
The advantage of BU is that you can set it up to plane at a high cutting angle, which can be a lifesaver with very interlinked grain. The downside is that you have to hone secondary bevels, which are easily done with a honing guide (but cannot be done freehand). There are no downsides if you regularly use a honing guide.
The other "advantage" is a personal preference, which may not suit others - I like a plane with a low centre of gravity. I just find there is added feedback and "feel". BU planes have this over BD planes. However ... there is a good argument toi be made for a high centre of gravity plane when it comes to a jointer. Jointing square edges may be easier for some if the plane is tall. Personally, this is not an issue for me,but it may be important for you.
An demonstration of the above can be seen here in my review of the Veritas BU Jointer (not trying to dissuade you from the LN - just showing yiou what I have).
As it happens, I have a choice of three jointers: Veritas BUJ, Stanley #7, and a 30" high angle (60 degree BD) razee woodie I built. I tend to use the latter 90% of the time and the VeritasBUJ the other 10%. Both work very well, but I do love my woodies!
My razee offers both a high cutting angle and a low centre of gravity, and I can hone the blade freehand ..
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi Derek,
I have read and read and read and I am no closer to making a decision on which plane to purchase. :)
I should have mentioned which woods I will be working with. So far I've mostly worked with mahagony, pine and poplar. Later on when I gain more experience I'll be working with maple, oak, birch and aspen, ash.
I've always thought of the jack plane as a roughing plane. used to remove large shavings. Since I own a jointer and planer for that sort of work I was thinking of purchasing a #7 jointer plane. But after reading many of the posts here I'm seriously thinking of the LV BUJ.
wanda
wanda,
I'm by no means a Galoot but I tried the LV BUJ at WIA and, well I bought one. It felt very comfortable and worked great.
When it arrived I couldn't get up to the woodshop fast enough with the boxes. Put it together according to the directions, tweaked the blade and mouth opening and I swear it worked as well as the one at the conference.
Reason being, I used the same board that I took to WIA. Now I can't tell ye if the one at the show was setup, cause the one I bought worked pretty much the same out of the box.
I'm tempted to see if I can make it better but then agin if it aint broke.........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi,
I've been doing some more reading on hand planes. OMG! Now I've read that a jack plane can be used as a "short jointer" and a jointer can be used as a levelling plane (smoother) and a block plane can be used as a small "jointer". Apparently it's the blade that makes all the difference. A jointer plane was typically used as a fitting plane... the blade was left square.. no chamfer. It's role was to joint the edges of boards. But apparently if you use the same plane but chamfer the edge you can use it as a levelling plane to smooth large surfaces.
One other thing that comes to mind. Is the LV BU jack plane used more for smoothing/levelling? Is it capable of removing heavier shavings like the LN BD jack? How would you compare those 2 planes. How easy is it to adjust the LV LA jack on a shooting board.. (say you're removing a smidgeon of wood from the end of a drawer back)and you need to adjust the depth of cut several times That's wasy using the adjuster wheel on the LV BD jack plane. How do you do that using a LA Jack plane? I am not at all familiar with low angle bevel up planes.
Do you have to hone a secondary bevel on a bevel up plane? I do realize you have to use a hoining guide you can't hone them freehand like you do a BD iron.
some people prefer to use machines to do most of the rough(course) dimensioning and then switch to a jack plane (medium) and then a smoother.(fine) Then there are those people who prefer to use a foreplane/jointer/smoother .. while others prefer to use a scrub plane, smoother. My god it sure gets confusing.
High angles/low angles bevel up bevel down higher center of gravity vs lower center of gravity...to use a hoining guide or not.... Then you have to take in to consideration the type of woodl you'll be planing and the types of furniture you want to build. There are so many factors to take into consideration.
I think it takes more than a #4 smoother (which I have) to level and smooth a board that's been jointed and planed by machine. I doubt a smoother would completely remove the tool marks left by the machine without a lot of effort. There are times when I will want to take off more than a whisper thin shaving. I will need to flatten panels. Who knows maybe I'm dead wrong perhaps the LV bevel up smoother can do the job.
I have a tough decision to make. LV Bevel up jack or a bevel down LN Jack plane.
If I followed the advice in the book, Hand tool Essentials I'd probably go with a foreplane (but since I have a jointer and planer I can skip the foreplane), #7 jointer, smoother and block plane.
Wanda
Is (the LV LA Jack) capable of removing heavier shavings like the LN BD jack? How would you compare those 2 planes. How easy is it to adjust the LV LA jack on a shooting board?
Hi Wanda
Lots of question ... but we have lots of answers!
My basic rule when deciding between a BU and BD plane ... BU planes have their greatest strength at the cutting angle extremes - either very low or very high. BD planes have there greatest strength in the middle cutting angles.
So, while a BU Jack can take a thick shaving (as good as a BD Jack - see here), I would rather have a BD plane in the role of a jack/foreplane. Similarly, while you can use a BD Jack on a shooting board, you will get a better result with a LA Jack (and a low cutting angle).
Both these planes can function extremely well as long smoothers/short jointers. For both the BD Jack and the LA Jack you would need a separate blade, one with a fine camber (not the deep camber of a jack/foreplane). I would use the BD #5 1/2 (with a common pitch) if I was planing straight grained wood, and the LA Jack (with a half pitch angle) if I was planing interlinked grained wood.
I see your needs as resting with the low- and middle/upper cutting angle range (shooter and smoother), rather than just the middle range (jack and smoother). This sets you in the direction of the BU plane over the BD plane.
If I could only have one plane, my personal choice would be the Veritas LA Jack. It is a better design than the LN version of this plane (which is really a different plane, being lighter and narrower). I'd get three blades for it: one for use as a jack - if you need it (and I have doubts that you do with the method you work), one blade to be used for the shooting board (ground at 25 degrees) , and one blade for smoothing (ground at 25 degrees, honed at 38 degrees, giving you a cutting angle of 50 degrees).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Wanda:
Derek has given you sound advice. The LV BU jack plane works well as a supersized smoother and for shooting board work. I have the LN BU jack and really like the plane, but must admit that the size of the LV version, plus the wider iron makes the LV bevel up jack more versatile. Rather than buying two additional irons for the plane, let me suggest just one additional. Hone it as Derek said with a 38 degree bevel for smoothing hardwoods. Use the money saved by not buying the second additional iron to purchase an old (pre 1950s) Stanley #5 jack plane. A good one shouldn't cost more than $50 including shipping. Unless it is totally used up, the iron that comes with the old Stanley will be fine, no need to purchase an aftermarket iron. Use the old Stanley jack plane for any of the courser jobs that might come up. You will have spent the same amount of money, but have an additional choice of tools depending on the work at hand.
Mel will probably followup with a post telling you that I also own a bunch of planes (this is true, including an old Stanley #7 and a LN #7). I don't agree with Mel that one should buy an old tool, learn to fix it up, and then learn to use it well before purchasing a quality tool. I have come to believe it is far easier to build skills using quality tools. I have been a woodworker for 42 years and spent 30 of them wishing my skills were better. It wasn't until I could afford some higher end tools that I realized that my old, second hand tools were holding me back. My original frame of reference were the abused, dull tools from my high school shop class. This isn't an ad for LN, but once I could afford a set of his chisels, a dovetail saw, and hand planes I found out that my skills were fine, my tools weren't. Now that I know what good tools are capable of, I have been able to go back and rework my old tools so that they serve me better now than they did 15 years ago.
gdblake
HI guys,
One ? comes to mind.. How does the LV BU jack plane adjust on the fly? I want to be able to take off fine shavings when piston fitting drawers into a cabinet. The LN bevel down planes excel at that. Being able to adjust on the fly is very important. I'd rather have a plane that could adjust on the fly easily for shooting miters and endgrain. Their are pros and cons to using both planes.
I wonder what the LV #5 1/4W bench plane would be like to use. I'm looking for a plane that will do the Initial smoothing my #4 LN will do the final finish smoothing.
It it wasn't so expensive I'd be very tempted to buy the LN bevel down #5 1/2 bench plane. Although they classify it as a Jack plane, Cosman uses it for just about everything. No doubt he has more than one frog for his plane. In his dvd on sharpening and using Hand planes he says that plane performs 90% of the work in his shop. He's proven that it can remove whispy shavings from curly maple. In the drawer making dvd he uses it as a shooting plane to piston fit his drawers.
Power jointer and planer/ ? / #4 LN smoother. So the best plane to use as an intermediate plane would be???? Christopher schwartz prefers the LN #7 jointer (that is way out of my price range) unless like you said I find an old stanley on e-bay. Derek recommends the LV LAJ. OH my!
I can't have them all. :( The LV LAJ is less expensive compared to the others. So that's one thing in its favour. BIG ? is how easily does it adjust on the fly.
I'd have no problem deciding on which shoulder plane to buy. It's never an easy decision when it comes to bench planes. Opinions vary. Unfortunately, nobody I know uses hand planes and there is no LV store near where I live so it's not like I can hop off to a LV plane seminar. Thank god for Rob Cosman's videos and this forum.
Wanda
Edited 10/19/2009 6:38 pm by Wanda200
You're relying on *this* forum?Try "Handplane Essentials" by Christopher Schwarz. Complete with a group photo of the kings of modern handplanes. I believe I got mine from LV. For me, their HO is a short drive. (Don't know if that's good or bad.)Andy
Wanda:
Adjusting a plane during a cut is not all that important. What is important is that the plane be easy to adjust, take fine adjustments, and that it holds its settings through multiple passes. The LV BU jack is easy to adjust and it holds the adjustment through multiple passes. I admit that a #5 1/2 is a great tool to have, I own two old Stanley's (use to have three but gave one to my oldest son). With the mouth adjusted to make it really tight, the LN version makes a nice panel plane. With the mouth opened it can hog off a lot of material fast. The same is true for the #7. Still, if what you are really in need of is a plane that can smooth large surfaces and work well with a shooting board the LV BU jack is a hard plane to beat. If you are mostly needing a plane to joint the edges of long stock for panel glue up a jointer plane is called for.
What I think is called for is for you to get together with someone in your area and try out several different planes. I believe this may be the only way you will be able to resolve your dilemma. If you were in the Atlanta, GA area I would be happy to let you try out mine. Folks, is there anybody in Wanda's area that is willing to let her push a few planes around?
gdblake
Edited 10/20/2009 8:15 am ET by gdblake
gdblake,You took the thoughts right out of my head !> I have come to believe it is far easier to build skills using quality tools. . . . It wasn't until I could afford some higher end tools that I realized that my old, second hand tools were holding me back. My original frame of reference were the abused, dull tools from my high school shop class. . . . I found out that my skills were fine, my tools weren't. Now that I know what good tools are capable of, I have been able to go back and rework my old tools so that they serve me better now than they did 15 years ago.<Working alone and without having tried a fettled tool that works right and not being a tool and die maker ( I am guessing ) it may be less than fun for Wanda to fettle.I love it but I love working with metal and am better at it than working with wood.I still had to fettle to a small degree one or two of my finish planes that were modern and "quality". I would hate to try this with a cheepy and a huge o' long cheepy at that. Doubly so if I wasn't interested and just wanted to get on with my woodworking. Too much work.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/20/2009 4:03 am by roc
GD,
"Mel will probably followup with a post telling you that I also own a bunch of planes (this is true, including an old Stanley #7 and a LN #7). I don't agree with Mel that one should buy an old tool, learn to fix it up, and then learn to use it well before purchasing a quality tool. I have come to believe it is far easier to build skills using quality tools. I have been a woodworker for 42 years and spent 30 of them wishing my skills were better."That response is a CLASSIC, GD. But you know me better than that. I respect you greatly. Your woodworking skills are much better than mine. You own more and better planes than I do. In general, people would be better off taking advice from you than from me. Heck, like Derek, you make as well as use planes. I have only made one plane.BUT advice is a funny thing. Now I am going DEEP, very deep, deeper than Wanda wants to go. To me, a wise person, when asked for advice, does two things:
1) tries to give advice that is appropriate for the person being advised, not appropriate to the person giving the advice (which is far more common on Knots.)
2) asks the questioner to think about restating the question, because there may be a "better" path then they are currently thinking of.NOW ONE CAN GET INTO TROUBLE - some people who ask for advice really don't want wise advice. THEY WANT AN ANSWER TO THE STUPID QUESTION THEY ASKED, AND THEY WANT IT NOW!!!!!! I try not to give advice to such people. They will not go far in this world. But you..... you are a high flyer, so I feel that giving some advice to you might be worth the effort. You see deeply. You understand nuances. Most importantly -- You think for yourself. That is something that I would like to see Wanda work towards. That is why I gave her the advice that I gave her. PLEASE NOTE. I was not saying that fettling an old Stanley is the best "final answer" for her, but merely a first step in learning and understanding the differences between planes, and in figuring out exactly what her needs are. Later, when she has more of the background and experience that you and Derek and Roc and Larry and and and have, then she can make her own decisions, like you do now. I want Wanda, and everyone to become more like you. One does not get like you by being given answers, but by tackling long learning experiences that lead to self reliance. You are a Self Reliant person. Let everyone strive to become more like you in that respect.NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT STUFF. THis is where it gets crazy. I am dead serious, but I am getting deep. I respect you and Derek and Roc very much, but there are others that I look to for answers to woodworking questions. I like to look to a person's body of woodwork and see if they are worth listening to. Are they a GREAT woodworker. We have such people here on Knots. Let me mention three: Ray Pine, Rob Millard and Richard Jones. Look at the furniture they have made. Once you see it, you say: WOW, these are persons who have the capability that I want to emulate. I wonder how they did it. I have read virtually everything that these three guys have written on Knots, and none of them spend much time on the BU vs BD thing. So IMHO, while it may be important to making magnificent hidden joints, it is not what the great furniture designers/makers worry about.Let's go beyond Ray, Rob and Richard, and get to the GREAT Furniture designers/makers. Pick yours. I think of folks from previous centuries like the Goddards and the Townsends. Their furniture now sells from the hundreds of thousands of dollars to the millions. The beauty of their furniture is of the HIGHEST ILK. My guess is that it is even better than yours. :-) Yet they didn't have any BU bench planes!!!!!!!!!!!The planes that I have are much better than the ones that the Goddards and Townsends had, but they made infinitely better furniture than I do (and probably than you do. let me know what you think). So how can it be that they make infinitely better furniture using wooden BD planes. Heck they didn't even have metal bodied planes. So if one wants to become a great woodworker, and to emulate the GREAT woodworkers, not the great "joiners", why wouldn't one seek to emulate them. I am not a Luddite. If better methods come along, then use them. BUT I BELIEVE THAT THIS WHOLE THING ABOUT THE DETAILS OF PLANES IS ANTI-EFFECTIVE. Having "better" planes has not made their owners as capable as the Goddards and the Townsends. Indeed, it has caused many of them to focus on essentially irrelevant details, when they should be standing back, and looking at the big picture and asking, "WHAT ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS I CAN LEARN IN ORDER TO BECOME A GREAT FURNITURE DESIGNER/MAKER?In those terms, worrying about BD vs BU is BS. But then again, not everyone wants to be great. Some folks are set on working themselves up to being mediocre, at best. Some folks want the insides of their M&T joints to be more perfect than the piece of furniture they are designing/making. Those are perfectly valid goals. They are just not mine, and luckily, they were not the goals of the Goddards and Townsends.Maybe it is best for you not to have read this perfectly revolutionary message. I should never have read the Declaration of Independence either. It was written by revolutionaries!!!!!! Why would anyone want to be more like the Goddards and Townsends than the gdblakes and the 9619s? My advice is definitely not for everyone. Indeed, these days, it may not be for anyone. Sic transit gloria,
Morpheus (9619)PS - I hope you aren't thoroughly POed. I like and respect you. Otherwise I would not have sent you this message. I doubt anyone else will read it. It is far too long, and far too deep, for casual readers.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel:
I figured you couldn't pass on my answer to Wanda. Since boyhood I have had an intense interest in hand tools. I was fortunate that in shop class we were made to master the hand tools before being allowed to learn to use the power tools. We were required to learn how to four square a board quickly and accurately with a Stanley #5 plane since the school shop didn't have a jointer or planer. When I got out of college I augmented my meager salary by building custom furniture pieces with very few tools. I am not what I consider to be an accomplished woodworker. I lack the fine motor skills needed to do the fine inlay work required of Federal furniture or much in the way of carving. My design skills are also limited. When I was building custom pieces for clients it was usually to make a bed, dresser, chest of drawers, nightstand, desk, armoire, or kitchen cabinets to match something existing. I took the design elements from the existing piece and just made them fit the required dimensions of the new piece. Nothing fancy, just solid construction. If a client wanted something that was beyond my skills I told them so and didn't take the job. What I know about using tools comes from a lot of reading and trial & error.
I hope you noticed that later I also suggested Wanda fine someone in her area that is willing to let her test drive several different planes. I hate to see people waste money on a tool that won't meet their need (forget expectations). That said, I wish I had a BU jack 30 years ago. I would have saved me a lot of time. I don't think they are the perfect plane, but if a person is mostly working with power tools as Wanda is, the BU jack is a good way to go. Also, I don't believe metal bodied planes are superior to wooden bodied planes. After getting to use a couple of Clark and Williams planes earlier this year I am convinced the wood ones are generally better.
My main disagreement with your advice is that I believe it is far easier to develop hand tool skills with good tools that are properly sharpened. I don't think novices have the skills or a good frame of reference to restore an old tool to good working order on their own.
gdblake
GD,
Always good to hear from you.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
I was out of the loop for awhile. How are you coming with the moulding planes and your #45?
gdblake
gd,
I put the 45 and the half set of hollows and rounds on "hold" for a while because of:
- pressure from my wife to re-do an Eastlake dresser.
- pressure from my wife to re-do a child's table and four chairs
- self-induced pressure to finish off some antiques that needed to be rebuilt and given to my daughter and son in law.
- a request from a tool maker to make a string of videos on the use of their tools.
- replacing my 30 year old Sears work table with a real Sjobergs workbench, for which I had to make a set of nine drawers to fit between the four rails.
- having my grandson full time for the summer, which was great fun, but reduced woodworking time significantly.
- and some other stuff, but you get the idea. I did make a nice box to hold the set of cutters for my #45 so that they won't bang against each other, and I made a box with sections to hold the parts of the #45 that are not in use at any given time. That makes it harder to lose those part. I have flattened the backs of all of the cutters, anvd now need to do thee bevels.I worked a bit on the backs of the Hollows and Rounds. The remaining issue is that the larger irons didn't shrink the way the plane bodies did, and so their profiles need to be redone. This is not a trivial job. These cutters had never been used!!!!I have Larry's two dvds on making mouldings with Hollows and Rounds, and I bought a pair of snipes bill planes, as he recommends. I have practiced with them. Very interesting. Lee Richmond, ats "The Best Things" didn't believe me when I told him how I planned to use the snipes bill planes. Then I showed him Larry's video. Now he understands and believes. I sold my small bandsaw last month, and yesterday I picked up the three boxes which house my new Powermatic 14" bandsaw and riser block. I need to put that together. But I am getting some pressure from the tool maker who wants his videos finished. I am NOT complaining. I love the retired life. I just wish I had more time. I want to do more carving, get the 45 and the H&Rs going and learn how to use them to do mouldings, and then to do some carved, complex mouldings. All in good time. Two days ago, I made a video on how to power-carve a fish. Yesterday I made a video on how to power-carve a windsor chair seat. Today's video is on power-carving a bowl. I have a nice piece of hickory ready to go. Each day, I have a two hour block of time in the afternoon, when my grandson is taking his nap, to make the videos. On Sunday, his mother will arrive home from her business trip, and Freddy will go back home, and I will have more time, but I will miss Freddy.So please come to Burke, VA and teach me about woodworking. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>Then you have to take in to consideration the type of wood you'll be planing and the types of furniture you want to build. There are so many factors to take into consideration.<Yes I appreciate people who are good at woodworking to and can juggle all these things. They know a lot. Much more to woodworking than I ever could have imagined when I first took it up in earnest.>others prefer to use a scrub plane, smoother. My god it sure gets confusing.<Look at it this way:• the smoother can do it all if you open the throat and use a blade that is curved a lot like a scrub blade then use the straighter ones as the work gets flat.• the scrub can NOT really do it all because it is not accurately made and the throat doesn't close up for fine cuts.So one plane could do it all if it is accurately made.Why have more than one plane ?Here is why :
• Scrubbing with a finely crafted and accurately tuned ( fettled ) plane will beat up the plane and may in time make it so worn that it can not do quite as accurate of work when it comes to the final smoothing.• when using one plane for many phases of the dimensioning and finish planing one must constantly reconfigure the throat and replace blades and what have you. Which takes time and gets old.• having a plane dedicated to one task and having many planes allows you the freedom to just grab the plane configured for your current task and work.• bevel down planes are difficult and time consuming to change the mouth opening on. The bevel ups are quick so if you have one plane for everything then it should be a bevel up.I have always recommended to have many blades for each plane and have many planes.
If you have one plane that still means a few blades for each edge radius. Some say the blade sharpening lasts for a long while so why have more than one of each radius. Some woods, teak, bubinga, purple heart etc. will eat more than one blade sharpness just getting one side of the board through that stage of planing. So to keep working for a good session in the shop without stopping to sharpen when working those woods and many others it is nice to have several blades.>#4 smoother (which I have) to level and smooth<
>I doubt a smoother would completely remove the tool marks left by the machine without a lot of effort.<So you see using your #4 for these it will be the same effort as any other plane IF you use the appropriate blade radius. More radius to level; less radius to smooth.More radius means a narrower ribbon of shaving but a deeper cut and a thicker ribbon for roughly the same effort. So your smoother could remove the tool marks or any thing else you want to do with it including jointing long boards to glue them together. Just takes the right blade in that smoother. ( and an appropriate throat gap setting )A nearly straight across blade , almost no radius , means a much wider ribbon. So must be a less deep cut for the same effort. If the blade is very sharp and properly set up, grind angle, and you have enough strength then, in theory, you could take a thick shaving similar to the scrub set up. I don't think that is you or I though.My friend they call Mega Foos could do it though. The handles on the plane might get pretty loose in the hands of Mega Foos if he were taking smoother wide but scrub thick ribbons. It would be a frightening thing to behold.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 10/19/2009 11:39 pm by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 10/19/2009 11:52 pm by roc
Hi Roc,
Yes, it's all about curvature and practicality. You wouldn't want to be swapping out blades too often on a BD LN #4. Although it's not a complicated tool.
With regards to the Bench planes. The #5 LN bench (jack) how tight can the mouth close up on that plane?
What is the best plane for smoothing panels that have been put through a power joiner? or for that matter wider panels that exceed the abilities of my bench top planer. (13" Dewalt planer)
For now I've decided not to purchase a plane. I orderd a 1" chisel and carcass saw instead from LN. I want to practice practice practice using my #4 smoother first.
Wanda
wanda
>#5 LN bench (jack) how tight can the mouth close up on that plane? <I don't have one. I have the LN bevel up jack though.http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=62and if you are not VERY careful the mouth adjusting plate will slam into the blade. So closes all the way to zero gap.I imagine the #5 LN will close all the way as well. I wouldn't worry much about a fine throat setting just that it is not huge like a fixed throat scrub.>What is the best plane for smoothing panels that have been put through a power joiner? or for that matter wider panels that exceed the abilities of my bench top planer. (13" Dewalt planer)<Why your #4 of course. I find it can smooth everything if set up right. The problem I had with it was smoothing purple heart that had reversing grain. I got tear out. Very small chips of wood would pop out leaving a smooth surface with just a few pock marks. Wasn't that bad a deal actually but I was striving to master my plane and to achieve a "perfect" surface.I bought all sorts of funny planes attempting to get that elusive surface in that particular plank of wood.See the Japanese plane and the LN scraper plane in the pic called Practically Retired. There were others. Doesn't mean I don't love em. I don't really NEED them though.What finally did it for me was a BU ( the LN BU jack above ) with a high angle blade. From there I came to learn I could do the same thing with a " back bevel " on the plane you have ( #4 ).The thing to know here is that it is extra futzing around to make and maintain that back bevel. When and if you want to revert to the non back bevel, cuts easier/less effort and better without in softer woods, then you must use a different blade or grind out the back bevel thus wasting some of your blade steel/length.With a straight edge to check the larger surfaces that don't fit through your planer you can smooth them with the #4. Use a curved blade to take off the bulk then a straight across blade to make the final finish but not take off any significant thickness.Here are the planes I use for almost all my panel planing from rough lumber to final "oh my god that is beautiful ". See pic. Shinxo w curls. By the way the shine on the surface of the bench is from the finish plane alone there is no finish on the work bench at all just raw wood straight from the finish plane.I could just use the smoother or the BU jack alone as I said in the past. My #4 is a beautiful paper weight these days. Doesn't mean that won't change when I work other friendlier woods. The #4 is one heck of a nice plane.Currently I am addicted to the Veritas BU smoother. I am not saying you should get one unless you plane seriously hard and tearout prone wood. It is heavy to. I am not a person who thinks heavy is better but in the hardest woods with a wide blade it allows almost no flex in the plane or blade and so is super controllable and reliable when it hits gnarly figure.Do you have the sharpening stuff that you need ? Jig, a few stones, a way to flatten the stones. That is nearly as important as the blade and the plane you put it in.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/20/2009 4:11 pm by roc
Hi,
That is one sweet looking plane. So you don't think the size of the sole limits you in anyway when it comes to planing panels. I thought it would. I though a longer sole was better (like on the Large LN #5 1/2 or #5. Remove all the high spots and then use the #4 smoother to come in between the small valleys until the surface is real smooth.
So I have a general purpose #4.. Now to get down to the business of planing. I have a shaker dresser I've been wanting to build. So when I get the time I've got to get started on that. That should give me lots of practice with my #4 smoother.
You're right I should get myself an extra blade and put a chamfer on the blade for levelling. smaller curvature for smoothing.
I believe Derek Cohen rates that LV smoother you have very highly. I was considering buying that but decided on the LN #4.
Yup, I have all the sharpening tools. I have the synthetic Norton waterstones. (1000/4000/8000) A LN honing guide and a lapping stone.
wanda
>the size of the sole limits you in anyway<I check with the straight edge. With a long sole or very long sole I still find I get out of flat.the straight edge shows the high areas and I plane them off. If you think about it we plane the high areas with the little scrub. Why not do the same with the other stages ? In theory it does make sense that the longer plane takes the peaks off the scallops and in-general spans the low areas but it tends to go the other way after a while.Takes the ends of the plank off and leaves the middle high. Mostly happens with my bevel down jointer and the very inexpensive Stanley jack plane. Both behave this way. I verify with the straight edge and there are the spots I need to plane. In other words with those two planes I can not get close with the scrub and then plane the length using only the jointer or jack and winding sticks and end up with a flat plank.The bevel up jointer is better. I don't get the convex shape but I do inevitably get a twist that is consistent and I must guard against and plane certain areas more than others to keep the board flat when say taking off a sixteenth of an inch. The winding sticks and the four foot straight edge tell me this.I end up planing small areas that are high so why not just use a lighter plane to do this ? It is not a technique problem if it doesn't end up the same when using two different bladed jointers that are approximately the same length, width and weight.Here is an explanation from a previous post. Also you may want to look at the video : If you are planing some fairly soft wood that is wavy and lumpy they would be useful. On the very hard woods like purple heart and bubinga the blade is so wide I don't get much depth and so resort to the scrub for about all of the flattening because the blade is narrow with a lot of radius and so it keeps cutting deep even when the blade is getting a little dull.Rent or buy the DVD Coarse, Medium and Fine by Christopher Schwartz. He isn't saying the same about the jointers but you just may want to see the video that's all.http://www.lostartpress.com/product/45979970-6a5d-4c3e-b33b-15646ae3a9df.aspxAlso can get it from various wood working tool suppliers when you order your planes.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 10/20/2009 10:43 pm by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 10/20/2009 10:48 pm by roc
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled