Yall,
What’s the best dedicated smoothing plane for hairy grain? (Can’t afford Philip’s, wish I could.)
Tom
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Replies
Hi Tom
For hairy grain, mmm ... a razor? :)
I have one of Philip's smoothers (S15BU) and it is the best I have used.
I also have the Veritas BUS and LAS (both set up for 62 degree angles of attack), LN #4 1/2 Anniversary (50 degree frog), and HNT Gordon smoother (60 degree bed). There are others, such as a Bed Rock #4 (with LN blade/cap iron), etc, but a high angle counts a great deal when planing highly interlinked timber and so these are better suited to straighter grains.
I'd say that the average woodworker who sticks with medium hard or straight grained timber will not see any performance differences between these planes and basic (but well-fettled) Stanleys.
However, when you work with hard and interlinked timber much of the time, the differences are easy to observe. On such timber, the Veritas BUS is simply superb for the money. The LAS (and the LN #164) is nearly its equal, but requires more downforce as it is a light plane. The LN Anniversary is excellent as well, but its 50 degree frog holds it back (I really do not find a whole lot of difference between 45- and 50 degree frogs). I would like to try the 55, but I think the plane would be a killer if LN came out with a 60 degree frog. As it stands I can outpoint it with the HNT Gordon.
There are reviews on my website.
There are other terrific planes available, but I have not used them: C &W, Brese, Knight ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
The Clark and Williams smoother with a York pitch is great on really squirrly grain.
If I could cough up the cash for one of these, I'd jump on it
http://www.breseplane.com/Full_Size_Smoothing_Planes.html
I recently took delivery of the smaller one (the pic on his site is the one he shipped me) http://www.breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html and it's amazing. I've got some curly mango boards for some future project and put the small smoother thru some test drives on it. The grain direction is pretty tough to figure out and I completely smoothed the face of a short 6" piece pulling whispy curls all the way. Then I didscovered I'd been planing against the grain. No tearout at all just not quite as nice of a surface as going with the grain. Amazing.
Ron's apparently not to far away from offering the full size smoother in kit form too, but I dont know what the cost will be.
If you build it he will come.
I have a LN #4 that has a 50 degree frog and have been really pleased with it for most wood. You might try the 4.5 with a 55 degree frog. If LN has a show near you it would be worth going to and trying one out.
Troy
I'll put in a plug for the L-N 4 1/2 with a York pitch frog, it has never let me down.
If you're on a budget, the Lie-Nielsen low angle smoother is by far your best choice on a performance/cost ratio. It's a far heavier and stronger tool than the original Stanleys (and the original Stanleys are collector's items that are very expensive), can be had for $235, has an adjustable front piece that allows you to contract the mouth opening without losing support for the iron (the achilles heel of bevel-down smoothers based on the Stanley/Bailey design, in my opinion), and allows you very, very easily set the planing angle by honing a steeper micro-bevel.
Lee-Valley's equivalent low-angle smoother has its adherents as well, but they're not that popular on the secondary market. Should you decide you don't like the Lie-Nielsen, you can instantly sell it for almost what you paid for it on e-bay.
Next higher on the expense/performance ratio would be an antique Norris, IMO. You can usually get these planes for quite a bit less than a new tool made by Breese or Sauer & Steiner, and they work superbly. They show up frequently on e-bay, but perhaps a better option would be to buy from a dealer that examined the plane and can gaurantee that there are no loose cracks in the infill and that the adjuster works properly.
LV are not as popular on the secondary market? I think you are trying to say that the LN planes retain more of the value when you sell them. If so, I don't agree especially when it comes to the LA/BU planes.
Besides... if you are going to buy a plane aren't you going to keep it/use it? Why worry about resale then? Wouldn't performance, fit, price or some other factor be more important than resale?
LV are not as popular on the secondary market?
Could be that they are such good planes that buyers aren't selling them but in fact using them mebbe?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/13/2008 7:38 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Or maybe they aren't good at playing Dodgeball?
ducking and running
Hmm. I have yet to see one of the Lee Valley planes in decent condition not get 80% or more of retail on Ebay. And, I know this because I keep limiting my bids for them to 75% of retail, and not winning.
There was a low angle block plane, with discoloration on every surface, that got 65% of retail, and I kick myself for not bidding higher on it. I bought the front knob and rear tote kit for my block plane, which converts it into a bevel-up smoother about the size of a No. 3. And, it works great on tough to plane grainy woods. But, it is a pain to pull the tote on and off, to use it as a block plane, so I want another.
And not to steal the post: Veggiefahmah, I would recommend the Lee Valley, low angle block plane, with the ball knob and tote added, as a good plane for smoothing woods with hard to plane grain. I know it is a bit small and light for the purpose it does work, quite well.
Been very pleased with the 4 1/2 LN bronze with the 45 and 55 (half pitch) frogs. Bronze weighs in at 7 lbs.+ as against the cast iron model at 5 lbs.+. The extra weight make smoothing a dream.
BB
Hmm - I suspected I'd get quite a few responses regarding the popularity of LV vs. LN planes from LV adherents. Amusing to have such partisanship (on both sides) when both make high quality tools for not much money.
My statement was based on impressions based on WAY too much time spent on e-bay following both new and old tool auctions. Scientific study, it ain't. Maybe I should join a 12-step program for e-bay addiction....
All
Great responses, i've learned alot already. I'll keep watching the posts, but right now I'm leaning toward the Veritas LAS w/extra 62 degree iron because of price and potential for using on shooting board.
vf
In addition to smoothing if you're also thinking of shooting, I would recommend taking a good hard look at the LV LAJ. See Dereks review and blog on The Woodworking Life here @ FWW.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Having trouble finding that review. There's two Dereks, also. I llike the idea of a jack tho.
veggie,
Derek Cohen is who you be lookin fo.
He posted up yonder in 41754.2 in this discussion. Try this: There are reviews on my website.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I have some LN and some LV as for what company you go with either will leave you happy. As for what plane to get, i will stay out of that as I am just getting hand planes figured out. And in truth from looking at Ebay the LN do tend to sell for more (I have seen these sell in the 95 to 110% or retail range, go figure) this is not an issue to me as I do not plane on reselling them but it is something to think about if you may end up selling them.
Doug
Hi Doug,
I think in general hand tools can easily take on a personal preference for a lot of folks, price and resale value notwithstanding. Size and types of planes one might purchase may also be influenced by the type of work one does.
I'd love to hear what some of the more experienced planers think would make a good all around core set of planes. I'm thinking LV LA Jack, their block plane that can be converted into a small smoother, LN 4½, and a jointer from either one.
Of course I lust for a Brese infill and a Marcou but that will require a lot more tax rebates.
Ha, ha, ha,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'd love to hear what some of the more experienced planers think would make a good all around core set of planes.
Hi Bob
This is a simple question with a very complex answer. The reason being that there are so many different styles of planes and personal preferences must enter into the equations. One man's meat ...
Of course I can only give you my point of view. I have the good fortune to have compared many different planes - it is otherwise difficult to judge what is a good plane if this is done in isolation and without knowing the type of timber upon which it is used.
There are certain criteria that are important to me. One of these is performance on highly interlinked grain, another is "feel", and a third is ease of keeping the plane in action.
Performance in smoothers comes from planes with a high angle of attack. There is little substitute for this. But that might mean 50 degrees to some. It means 60+ degrees to me. This is one of the reasons why the BU planes score highly with me. Simply, they are capable of a higher cutting angle than most.
The area of "feel" is a reflection of the plane's centre of gravity. The lower the centre of gravity, the closer one gets to the wood, and the greater the degree of feedback. Planing with a blockplane is an example of this. BU planes again score highly in this area. BD planes can do so too - such as the (adjusterless) HNT Gordon range, Krenov-type woodies, and Japanese planes.
Now this is going to surprise some. At the end of the day the plane has to be kept working, and I find BD planes easier in this regard. They continue to be used as frequently as BU planes in my workshop. The reason is that I prefer freehand honing over a honing guide. I hollow grind my plane blades (where I can). I like to remove the blade and either strop it back to an edge or re-hone it. This is difficult to do if the blade has a microbevel on a flat grind. Of course, if you use a honing guide all the time then the issue is moot. In which case I would unconditionally recommend a BU plane for you. For myself, as much as I find the performance of a BU plane to be fantastic, and I expect the feel to be right, the honing issue is a limiting factor. I am working on it (becasue these planes have such potential). See my article on cambering BU plane blades. It is also the reason why I built a BU smoother with a 25 degree bed (I can use a hollow ground 35 degree blade).
A few recommended planes (that will also handle interlinked grain): LV LA Jack, LV BUS, LV LA Block Plane, LN #5 1/2, HNT Gordon range.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Bob,
The planes I use most often are my LA Jack (with 25 and 50 degree blades) and LA Block. I also use my small router plane a fair bit. Scrapers and a #4 converted into a scrub round out my aresnal. I often think that a shoulder plane would be handy, but I've made do with the router plane so far.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Bob - I have dozens of planes (yeah, WAY too many - it's an easy addiction to aquire), including several Veritas models and a bunch of Lie-Nielsens. My take on your question is that it requires that you answer (for yourself) a few key questions first:
1) Do you work on mostly large projects (casework) or mostly small projects (small furniture like end tables, jewelry boxes, etc...)?
2) Do you typically work with well-behaved wood (such as straight-grained cherry, walnut, mahogany), or difficult to work woods such as curly anything or hard tropicals, such as cocobolo?
3) Do you value easy of adjustment, or simplicity of construction in a plane?
I think most dedicated hand-tool users like myself would advise that you have a minimum of 4 bench/block planes - one for roughing (a jack), one for truing (a jointer), one for smoothing (a smoother, obviously), and one for fitting (a small block plane). If your answer to #1 is large work, then I'd buy a #8 jointer, a #5 or #5-1/4, and a #4-1/2. If your answer is mostly small work, I'd buy a #6 (to use as a jointer), a #5-1/4 (to use as a jack), and #4 or possibly a #3 (to use as a smoother). Regardless of the size of your work, I'd buy a LN low-angle block for fitting purposes - this is one tool that L-N puts out that is world-class, bar none, and IMO is better than any other brand and any other design, and I prefer it in my shop above all others for this purpose, including some very expensive English infill chariot and thumb planes.
If the answer to #2 is "well-behaved wood", I'd go with a bevel down design at the standard pitch of 45 degrees, or (depending on your answer to question #3) a bevel-up block plane design (bevel-up planes are all technically block planes, regardless of length) with a standard bed angle of 20 degrees (and a blade angle of 25-30 degrees). If your answer to #2 is "difficult-to-work woods", then I'd go with BD designs with a middle-pitch frog (55 degrees), or BU planes with low-angle beds (the Veritas models) and a steep blade angle (35-40 degrees). The reason for the different advice is that it takes considerably more effort to push a plane with a high planing angle (over 45 degrees), so there's no reason to use it unless grain tear-out requires it.
If the answer to #3 is ease of adjustment, I'd get bevel-down designs, because you can easily set both the blade depth and the lateral position while you're planing (and without stopping). If the answer to #3 is simplicity of construction (i.e., less parts), I'd go with block planes (i.e., bevel-up planes). They also have the advantage of being cheaper.
Finally, I'd go with the following for a core set of joinery planes (assuming you wish to do joinery with planes and not power tools):
Shoulder plane - the L-N Clifton/Record copies are really nice
Router Plane - take your pick, L-N or Veritas. I have and use both
Small Plow - the only game in town in new tools is the Veritas. Antique Stanleys and Records also work very well for plowing out grooves.
That's it, unless you want to get into cutting dados with hand tools (dado planes), or do sliding dovetail joints with hand tools (dovetail plane for the male part).
David
David,
So the LN block plane you think so highly of for fitting - is that the fixed or adjustable mouth version?
Chris
The adjustable version. The non-adjustable bronze LN low-angle block plane is also a nice tool, but a bit smaller and lighter. Of course, that's me, and I build primarily furniture, boxes and chests. If you're into smaller things like dollhouses, picture frames, small jewelry boxes, etc..., the small bronze low-angle might be a better choice.
If I was picking based on only buying one, the LN low-angle adjustable would be my first choice. If I was buying more than one, I'd buy in this order: LA adjustable, standard angle adjustable, bronze small standard angle non-adjustable, low angle bronze standard adjustable.
The Veritas "Victor" small block plane, by the way, is well worth owning, though not as nice in mechanism or finish as the Lie-Nielsens (but a whole lot cheaper).
I quickly checked e-mail to see if I was about to stick my foot in my mouth. The funny thing is there was a recent LA Smoother and extra blade that sold for pretty darn close to retail! I think there may have been some truth to what you stated once upon a time. Now as Kidderville says mebbe LV planes are desired!
PS - To the original poster, I would consider a the Jack regardless of LV/LN before getting a smoother. Have fun!
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