Hello all!
I’m preparing to build new kitchen cabinets in the “euro” style. I haven’t done much finer woodworking in almost two decades (has it been that long?) but feel confident that this project is not beyond my admittedly rusty skills. I’m going for a high end sort of thing in solid walnut.
My question is what are the highest quality brands for both hidden door hinges and drawer slides/systems? Any new developments for corner cabinets?
Thanks in advance….
Doug Morgan
Replies
Doug,
Among all the major players you will find slight differences in one aspect or another. For instance, one brand may give you a wider range of applications, but another may be more suitable to your tools. The deciding factor could well be which line is carried by a local supplier. Very personal decision in the end. The following are my own very personal takes-
Blum: excellent line of hinges and soft-closing drawers. Top prices.
Mepla-Alfit: Very solid, well-engineered drawers. Hinges are OK. Somewhat lower prices.
Grass: Nice drawers but closing mechanism a bit inferior. Lovely hinges. High prices.
Hettich: Bottom dog on the pole, making a big effort to "try harder". Definitely a good buy for the price.
...with apologies to everyone I just offended...
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David:Thanks very much for the info and I welcome all opinions.I may not have much choice locally as I live in a smaller community. So I probably won't have much chance to compare and could be ordering on line. With items like this it's really hard to judge quality from a picture or a description: kind of like Kohler sinks -- there's no way I would have thought a drain assembly would be worth over $100 each, but after having it in hand the price doesn't seem as out of line.Doug
agreed. I used Hettich on my kitchen because of the significant cost savings over Blum, Salice or Mepla. The downside is the availability of Hettich. When I started my kitchen (two years ago) I ordered everything I thought I'd need. Now that we are finally getting to the end of the project I needed to order more of the Multi-Tech drawer systems hardware only to find no one in the u.s. is stocking them any longer.
I think most of the well known companies make good quality drawer slides and hinges, Blum, KV, Accuride. Probably the top of the line is Hafele. They also seem to have more accessory items but they can be very expensive. There are different types of pull outs for corners and some are now making drawers with a V shaped front to fit the inside corner. Others are beveling the corner cabinet so there isn't that 90 inside corner, similar to what is done with upper units. I've also seen the same configuration where a dishwasher or under counter refrigerator was placed instead of a cabinet. This gives a big corner worth of counter and sometimes an appliance garage is added or the upper unit is tall enough to sit on the counter. One one job, we put a sink in that corner which freed up long space to either side.
http://www.hafele.com/us/services/4398.asp
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
hammer - one of the reasons Hafele is expensive is that they make NOTHING. They are a huge worldwide distributor of hardware. They're hinges come form Salice, many of the runners and drw. slides are Accuride, trash systems are from Halio, almost all grey metal and crome pullout systems are from Kessobohmer, the list goes on and on. They of course have a slick encyclopedia and a nice markup, but hey, it's one stop shoppng.
Doug,
This may sound silly but I get all my Blum hinges and drawer slides from Manhattan Laminates in NYC.
They have a web site and I have found their prices very reasonable.
In the last few years I have done kitchen cabinets for my daughter and son in law and my wife and myself. All Blum except for the drawer and cabinet pulls.
ASK
Doug - i'm a cabinetmaker and I use Blum hinges and Accuride side-mount 100lb self-closing slides. The hinges are cheap, well made, have all kinds of adjustment and are guaranteed for life. The Accuride slides are smooth and well made but don't get any sawdust in them and if you can't work to 1/32" tolerance, use something else. Blum undermount slides (tandem) are nice but expensive and waste a lot of space. KV has a version of it but I was disappointed with it. Hope this helps
Terry: It looks like I can get the Blum hinges locally, which is probably the way I'll go. I think I understand the tolerance issue with the accuride -- I have a desk (store bought) with them and one drawer that appears to be too small. Thanks for the response.Ask: I appreciate the vote for blum but couldn't help but think of the old Pace Salsa add: "New York City?" If the locals are gouging (very likely) then I believe Lee Valley carries them and eliminate the hassle of crossing the border. Thanks!Hammer1: I'll check around for Hafele. They seem to have a distributer in Vancouver which might be an idea. I think I'm stuck with a lazy suzy set up for the corners or just plain old shelves. A pair of real estate consultants gave us a 2nd (or 3rd) opinion on the kitchen layout amongst other plans and the concensus is to NOT expand the kitchen at the expense of the dining area. What this means is that for one corner there is a dishwasher directly beside the corner cabinet and on the other side is a slide in range both might interfear with anything fancy. I'm leaning towards the ball bearing swivels supporting a pair of pie cut-out shelves per cabinet with the upper unit mounted to an adjustable shelf. If I can get the hinges easily I think I'll try using the euro-style hinges rather than a piano hinge for the 90 degree doors.Thanks again, everyone.....
Doug MorganPS: note that I'm NOT a house flipper or if I was I'd be the slowwwwwest one on record since I've owned the house for 10 years!
Edited 6/8/2007 11:56 pm ET by DougMorgan
Doug,The lazy susan type of corner units you mention have practically disappeared from the scene in Europe. My shop hasn't installed one in over 5 years now. If you calculate the amount of actual storage they give you, you'll see that it's a pointless exercise whose only purpose is to make people feel like they're using the corner space. There are any number of units of this type, often called "Magic Corners":http://www.kitchensupplies.co.uk/acatalog/magic_corner_system.htmlAside from more efficient use of the corner they have the advantage of the chrome baskets lifting out for cleaning. Extremely simple to install, you just need to make the cabinet opening within the given tolerances.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David:I was thinking of using one of those units when I thought I had more room. Without the extra clearance it looks to me as though the appliances would get in the way.We actually had two kitchens in our home, one of which I removed and am working on replacing. The other kitchen is a summer kitchen and will remain as is. The old kitchen had a lazy suzy and the summer kitchen we currently use does not (and also has 2 corner units). I have to say that both my wife and I prefer the lazy suzy but we might be best off splitting the difference and installing one in only one cabinet or maybe in both cabinets only on the lowest shelf.With the kitchen sized scaled back somewhat I am trying to make the most of the space available.Thanks for the input....
Doug Morgan
I have built a couple of lazy susan type corner units that I think optimize that space. I attach the doors to the spinning unit. Everything is shop made, including the rotating shelf unit. I put together my own bearing assembly with center column. This way I can make the shelves fit into the space with nothing wasted. The downside is that it's impossible to remove without accessing the rear of the cabinet. But if installed properly and made well, that shouldn't be necessary.Those magic corner things look neat, but they seem a hassle. The lazy susan unit brings its cargo out to the user. (Don't spin one too fast though.......)
This thread asked a simple question and we seem to be going off in another direction as usual!Since my shop turns out 3-4 custom kitchens every month we are quite familiar with the various options, and I still maintain that what you call "optimize the space" is a myth. Do the math -At a rough guess your shop-built lazy susan has a radius of some 15" at the most, which gives you some 700 sq.in of storage on each level. Take off for the pie-shaped cutouts and you've got no more than 1200 sq.in. of storage total for the 2 levels put together and I think I'm being generous.
If you take the same cabinet opening that you used, commonly 12" on each side of the corner, and rearrange the cabinets to give you all 24" on one side of the corner, you can "kill" the corner cabinet entirely and put 3 deep drawers into the 24" opening you saved. Each drawer has some 450 sq.in of storage, total 1350 sq.in., which is certainly more than your lazy susan.In my opinion the convenience of drawers beats a lazy susan hands down, not to mention the phenomenon of things flying off the rear of the lazy susan and being forever lost to enthusiastic turning. I'm sure your lazy susan is a fine piece of workmanship. But the basic concept of putting a round device in a square space and calling it efficient storage is a losing game.David Ringhttp://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Edited 6/10/2007 2:03 am by ring
David:At first I thought your logic was wrong but actually I think you mean radius when you are saying diameter. Unfortunately though just deleting the corner cabinets is not possible and would result in a much greater loss of space. The only workable layout is U-shaped and a lazy suzy returns almost 80% of the possible space in a more accessible manner than a straight cabinet.Thanks everyone for the feedback and any other hints or suggestions are most welcome.....
Doug
I stand corrected - I changed it to radius.Not knowing the plan in this case I can't comment specifically, but I'm not suggesting you do away with the corners in the countertop layout. I'm saying you've got a psychological barrier to overcome which is telling you that you must use the corners as cabinets. You can get the same amount of net storage space as a lazy suzan without utilizing the corner at all. (The magic corner is a little better, not much). You just close that corner space off forever, and put drawers in the opening you've saved. It's that simple. We've proven it dozens of times to anyone who is willing to listen. You can bury gold bricks in the corner if you want. (With the money you save by not building anything in the corner)David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Hi,
I'm really, really interested in what you are saying, but I'm really, really slow understanding it. Could you (please) post a sketch that shows what you mean about converting two 12 inch openings set at 90 degrees to each other into an accessible 24 inch opening into which you build drawers?Signed, Not too swift in Louisville...
Mike D :)
Mike,OK, here's a sketch showing a typical kitchen run, and an alternative arrangement which keeps the same elements just in a different order. By eliminating the corner opening (C) we gain a single cabinet (D) which can be fitted with drawers. My "outrageous" claim is that those drawers will more than equal the storage of the lazy susan. They are cheaper to build, easier to access and easier to clean. If you're starting from scratch you can almost always plan a layout in this way. If you're retrofitting without moving the sink it may be impossible to change. I'm not claiming it can always be done. I'm just trying to destroy the myth of efficient use of corners.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Hi David,Thanks for going to the trouble to make a sketch - that helps my old brain get it!Mike D
I am nearing the end of my first kitchen. I only hope that by the end of it, my building skills will be approaching my internet research skills.
I ended up using the Accuride Eclipse drawer sliders and have been happy with them. I went with them 1/2 because they offered a length that I ended up needing and also because I found a very cheap source. AH Turf & specialties in Colorado (http://www.ahturf.com/) has them for $28 a pair. I also bought my blum hinges there. The only difficult thing is their website is not the greatest. I recommend you use one of the other sites or the Mfg site to figure out exactly what part numbers you want and then ordering is easy.
I went with the blum hinges because I wanted lipped doors and there is a way to use the 170deg. hinges to do that and still meet my wife's demand for hidden hinges.(t'heck with Rockler's new $12 mounting plate for an existing salice hinge). Rockler does have a fairly cheap surface mount concealed hinge that will work if you need those doors to clear for a slide out shelf.
Jeremy
Carlsbad, CA
Thanks again everyone -- many good points and suggestions. I've located a local source for the blum hinges, blum slides, and accuride slides. The prices are beter than I expected for a local outlet and they have much of what I'm after in stock. They also had an extremely pricey magic corner unit (or some other brand) so I got to give it a test drive.I'm stumbling toward a final plan but still have a few details to work out. Blum hinges maybe with the blumotion closers for all the cabinets. I've ordered a mechanical corner unit for one of the two corner units from Lee Valley at 1/5 the cost of the local unit. Not the same brand I'm sure but I think it will be a solution for one corner. The other corner is a problem as it basically fills in between a monster sink and a slide in range. Due to the profile on the counter top edge the stove will be standing out a bit from the cabinet fronts. I'm leaning toward either a full, shop built, lazy suzy with attached doors but if there is room for a bi-fold type door than I'll probably go with a lazy-suzy turntable for the lowest shelf and an adjustable, boring, non-rotating shelf above. The wife won't even listen to heretical talk of angled corners.Thanks everyone for the suggestions on drawer slides. The blum tandems are very expensive and the loss of height is a problem for the drawers just below the counter top. The counter top edge will be pretty thick (2 3/8 inch) and I'm worried the drawer layout would look odd if they had to be even deeper than normal. The cheapskate in me keeps thinking regular old slides for the upper drawers and full extension accurides for a couple lower large drawers.Doug
Edited 6/12/2007 11:44 pm ET by DougMorgan
I see you are inclined to keep the wife happy, always a good idea. When I designed our cabinet layout, I ended up with a skinny three inch space below and next to the cooktop, against the side wall. I had planned a set of drawers for pots, etc. under the cooktop. I found a three inch wide rollout spice rack that fits nicely right next to the drawers and under the countertop. It hold about 50 small spice jars on three shelves. I put a cherry panel on front to match everthing else. I was a hero and every cook who sees it wants one. Of course I don't remember where I found it, but I'm sure I just Googled.
When I did the the area math I came up with nearly identical results (1375 sq. inches for the lazy susans with 2 shelves). My father built 2 shelves of 15" radius and a smaller top shelf with a 8" radius. This configuration allows adequate access to the 2nd shelf where a full radius top shelf could make the configuration a bit congested. It also adds another 200 sq. inches. I find lazy susan cabinet useful for small, irregular shaped appliances and large bowls over 12" in diameter. A drawer configuration would be a bit limiting and confining.Just my $0.02.Mike
Edited 6/18/2007 1:23 am ET by Mike Brown
Well Mike, to each his own. I can't tell you how many times we've shown customers a reasonable alternative to the corner storage and they say "I've always hated that lazy susan anyway!" Stuff falls off it and cannot be retrieved without the services of a contortionist. For my money, use the same height divisions you speak of and make them as drawers, but hey, maybe you like spinning that thing...I can tell you that my shop has not used one lazy susan in the last 200 custom kitchens. If someone insists we'll do it, but I don't think it's good for the client or good for the shop.regards,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Your approach is certainly interesting and has merit. While the lazy susan is not limited to having only two shelves, the addition of a third makes for inconvenient access to the middle and bottom shelf. Your three drawers have the clear advantage because each has uncompromised access. I like your idea. But it doesn't work well where the corner drawers are limited to 12 inches width or so because those very narrow drawers cannot hold the large items that a lazy susan can. In other words, I could not substitute your method in my own kitchen without moving things around substantially and I've got 14 1/2 inch wide doors on my lazy susan. There are things stored within that simply couldn't fit into a 12 inch wide drawer. I'm going to keep your method in mind for whenever I might do another kitchen. It has a lot of merit. Thanks.Another advantage you have: a custom lazy susan cabinet is not an easy thing to build or adjust properly. It works great when set up, but getting there is a chore.
I have an old fashioned lazy susan in my lower corner. The doors are attached to the pie shaped cutout. You don't open the door separately, it spins with the susan. It doesn't make the most out of the storage space but it allows some large items and you don't have to get down and reach. You can leave my lazy susan open when using it and everything rotates into easy access. I'm not a fan of having to open a door and then pull out a drawer or a shelf, too many moves.Hafele is what you asked for, the top of the line with prices to match. You can easily spend several hundred on one small gizmo and they have a ton of gizmos. In some parts of Europe, folks own their own kitchen cabinets and move them when they move. Their kitchens aren't as large or elaborate as American kitchens. Getting the absolute most for storage and convenience makes sense in that scenario.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I use Blum hinges and Blum tandem plus (with blumotion) undermount slides. All excellent quality, and readily available.
Doug: I recently finished a set of cherry kitchen cabinets (my first attempt at more or less fine woodworking). I am a beginner and used Blum Tandem slides. Once I figured out the instructions by reading them six times, they installed pretty easily and work very nicely. If you use them, buy the template. I used Accuride slides on another project, to save a few bucks, and found them less forgiving if you aren't within the squillionth of an inch tolerance required.
Edited 6/9/2007 3:34 pm ET by smslaw
One thing to watch for with the under mount soft-close drawer glides some of them are quite thick in the vertical dimension so you loose some drawer capacity. when comparing the 6" inch opening drawers with ugly side mounted slides with 6" opening drawers with the pretty soft-close under mount slides I seem to have about 1" less vertical capacity in the drawers. Anyway something to look at.
Troy
If you have a corner cabinet Blum make a fitting or assembly that are corner drawers they are rather hard to describe but Blum US should be able to help they are excellent .
Regards from OZ
You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
Call up the folks at Custom Service Hardware (http://www.cshardware.com/) and get one of their catalogs. They carry a good line of hardware, typically ship the day an order is received, and have great customer service.
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