I’m in the process of designing kitchen cabinets to build for my new ma-in-law, and we’ve been discussing what type of wood to use. It is not going to be painted, and is going to have a butcher block countertop (likely maple, but i’m open to suggestions). She doesn’t like the ‘yellow’ look of pine, and she’s not a big fan of oak. Of course, she thinks cherry is beautiful, but that will likely be more than her budget allows. Soft maple is appealing not only because it isn’t as expensive as some of the other options, but also because it is fairly stable, has a nice tight grain, machines well, and has a pleasing aesthetic. I’m curious about what other affordable (as compared with something like cherry) hardwoods are commonly, or not so commonly, have these sorts of qualities. How does birch compare? What other woods should i check out?
Any and all comments are welcome…
Replies
Check out Lyptus- it is reasonable, is hard, has the color of cherry, stains and finishes well, machines well, I just noticed that they are also making Lyptus butcher block tops now as well.
You worked with Lyptus?
We did 1 job with it and that was it about a year ago.
Have you noticed that it turns like a dirty nasty Brown color , I did not think much of it . It is just to straight grained I don't care for the plain look , I like to see some grain pattern.
It is very heavy dense and the splinters are the worst I have ever gotten " just like needles"
Its hard not to break Face Frame screws " getting it to pull up tight " I think its harder than Hickory.
You know I think its better for Hardwood Flooring .
I think its $ isn't it?
I didn't like it.
Ron
The grain of Birch is much the same as cherry. Stain to suit.
I'll give another plug for Lyptus. It is actually a hybrid between two species of Eucalyptus. I have used it for an aquarium stand and hood for a customer and it is great to work with. If you would like please check the following link to my site and you can see the piece and the color it has. (its the second one down the page.)
http://rpwoodworks.com/fish.html
Robby
RP Custom Woodworks
Do you know what the hybrid is from? it looks a bit like sydney bluegum from your photo - if so, I made a cabinet with hand raised panels 2 years ago with blue gum for the panels. It is not often that I swear an sweat to than extent for a very long evening. The family was very impressed with the result, they werent there during construction.
I am not familiar with Sydney Bluegum? I am curious though is it a eucalyptus species?
Lyptus is a hybrid between Eucalyptus grandis and E. urophylla. A few of the other posts have mentioned it difficult to work with. I will concede that it is a very dense and hard wood but I do not necessarily consider that a downside. I like how crisp the edges are for joinery and edge detailing. I do agree that it has the hardness of hickory but it is not as stringy or irritable. Also I haven't't tried screwing it so I don't know what results that would give. Do to its hardness I would have to agree that the screws would probably brake. Guess that's why I don't use screws in hardwood.
Hope this helps
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Patto
Its colour is very similar to rose gum (E. grandis), one of the hybrids' parents.
You sometimes have to really sweat n swear over some of our eucs but they scrub up pretty well.
Don
Gday,
had a look at a couple of slabs of Tasmanian Blue gum on friday for a coffe table in the sitting room. Very different from the sydney variety I had used before, quite pale in colour.
It wasnt what I wanted in colour - I have been conviced to do the natural edge thing and wanted to take ful advantage of the red to grey transition from heart to edges across a full width plank. Finished up with a couple of pieces of stuff identified as Blakelyes red gum, no idea what it is but has all the usual charater of 6mm borer holes, scribbly under the bark, and some sap inclusions.
There is a bit of twist in one end on the board im using for the top, but it is only 40 mm thick and, being redgum likely to continue twisting. I will probably leave the twist in (its about 8mm over 1300* about 400) as part of the character of the piece.
The next decision is finish. I had considered putting epoxy in the various holes, but they might not stay there with any further movement. So the answer will probably be something like the Organoil hard burnish on the top and a less-disciplined effort on the sides. This means that I wont have to worry about the treatment it will get from coffee cups and the odd spillage from a good red.
This is the first piece of 'rustic' trageted for indoors. It is a real comprmise between the style and the functional standard require of inside furniture. Really belongs in a park - but cant help the design authority.
Patto
Blakleys Red gum is your bog standard red gum, as distinct from river red gum which is as Russell Coight would say 'surprisingly found along the rivers as its name implies' It is very common in the Riverina, into Vic & downstream to South Australia.
The epoxy thing works well if the timber is relatively dry - have just done it myself on some KD river red, finished with organoil.
Don
day,
One site I saw referred to this species as "used for fence posts"
What did you use for the epoxy? Have not done this before and considered trying Araldite. Some of the sap inclusions are interesting and not deep, so a clear epoxy would show these to good effect, otherwise one of my mates has suggested one of the coloured ones (black).
The timber has been air dried, but is not all that stable i dont think. it has a fair bit of warp/cup/twist/bow acoss its area, but the style seems to lend itself to leaving this in so long as a wine glass wil sit firmly. The design authority is happy with this position, and I have considered mounting it with O rings between the legs and top to adjust to future movement.
The only other piece I have considered for this room (and the reason I am happy with the bush style) is a squatters chair, probably out of kiln dried Jarrah. am having trouble sourcing material for the front legs - most old ones seem to have used about 75mm stock and 22mm thick for the other components.Good proportional guide from Edward's first book and his sketch of the high chair / rocking chair combination made up well for a christening present a few years ago.
Regards,
Dave
The china cabinet is soft maple with cherry finish. The kit cabinets are solid cherry and cherry plywood. Sorry about the pic quality, but just want to show how close you can get with the finish.
PS my wife does NOT know the china cab is NOT cherry, so let's keep this between ourselves!
Joe
Nice work on the cabinets and china hutch.
Don't ask me how, but I can tell that the china hutch isn't cherry. Just doesn't look "right" to me. I dunno. I might have guessed maple. At least your wife can't tell.
I'm leaning towards a combination: cherry rails and stiles with soft maple panels, face frames, and countertop. I've seen a few peices of furniture that combined cherry and maple, and they seem to go quite nicely together. I'm going to steer away from trying to make a cheaper wood look like cherry, as i'm not that experienced with finishing techniques and i'm afraid that it'll just end up looking like cheap wood stained to look like cherry. I think the compromise of using both woods could give it a very distinct appearance without looking too over the top. And that way, we get some of the warmth of real cherry without having to dig so deep into the pocketbook.
Has anyone tried this, or something similar?
Jesse David
Yes
Natural "no stain" I liked it .
Make a few sample doors and try deferent things with your finish .
In my neck of the woods Walnut is almost $1.00 less Cherry and Walnut looks good also.
Glad you are going with real Cherry you will like it a lot better .
Ron
Well, she's taken the plunge and decided to go for all cherry cabinets, with a soft maple butcher block countertop. After much discussion, it was agreed that it would be worth the extra cost - since she's spending a pile of money anyways to have a new kitchen, might as well pay what it costs for a kitchen she loves, rather then later wish she had. We found a great deal on plywood for the cases, so she saves money there, and having her son in law build them saves her another bundle, so the extra cost is easily justified. I'm excited to get the opportunity to work with such nice wood. We'll be picking some of it up tonight. I'll post pictures when i'm done.
I guess the pressure is on now - can't waste wood like that on a mediocre job. I think i'm up for the challenge! I'd like to try bookmatching the panels - never done that before. She wants flat panels with an applied mitered raised moulding around the inside of the rail and stiles. Any good tips on bookmatching? How thin can the panels be?
Jesse David
I've mixed cherry and maple on a crib. It is currently displayed in the ¨gallery¨ folder under ¨first two pieces¨ title. Although mine was hard maple (bird's eye), instead of soft maple, you will get a rough idea.
I havent worked much with soft maple yet. Is it a lot different than hard maple (I mean for the color)?
Fred
I've done a couple of "two-tone" pieces and the only problem I had was preventing "bleed over" where two stains meet. On this piece, the top is oak plywood with a solid oak band. The stains are Minwax Golden Oak and Minwax Jacobean.
I had to run the band pieces down the table saw and create a shallow rabbet to give me the "break" to reduce bleed over. When staining, I masked with painters tape and held back at the rabbets - touching up with a fine tip permanent marker after the stain dried. The doors and drawer fronts were removed from the piece and stained separately.
If I were doing it again, I think I would mask off the mating edges and stain the top pieces before I did the glue up - making absolutely sure I cleaned up all glue squeeze out.
Consider steamed beech it is a less common wood there in the US but is really a beautiful wood both to look at and to work with. Here we use it like you use poplar there , which is why I can rarely use it ( Here it just seems like a cheap wood) . The price is good . have a look.
Philip
Philip
We have not long finished an office suite in steamed (Euro) beech & it pains me to hear you guys have got loads of it at a good price, I had to pay what I thought was a top price in relation to other timber - shipping would have had an effect but not that much.
I rekon we ought to start up a world wide timber exchange:-)
Don
I made beautiful kitchen cabnets out of "framing Alder" and stained them with cherry dye. The grain is very much like cherry. I filled the knots with fiberglass bondo.
If Cherry is the look you are going for I think you will have better luck with Steamed Beech or Alder rather than Soft Maple.
We did a set of cabinets out of " Rustic Cherry" a few weeks ago . It had lots of defects and sap wood . I had my doubts about it cutting the job out, but it looked good when it was complete. The Rustic Cherry was about the price of Soft Maple, you will need a little more lumber to pick through and cut around defects. Raised Panel ends are the way to go, they look better than Plywood ends Cherry Ply is lots of $.
I cant belive you don't like good old American Red Oak.
Just remember real Cherry looks way better than something eles stained.
Just a thought I assume its a small Kitchen and a rough guess of 300 brd ft. hardwood, I would go with real Cherry.
I like the Natural look , let it age
Ron
Haven't checked cherry prices here lately but that 300 b.f. would cost me about $3000 CAN. Pretty steep before I start milling it, add fixtures, finishing and, oh yes, labour to build and install them. Would cost me somewhere around $20,000 to $25,000 for the cabinets to be installed by others.
Brian
Man you need to take a trip down my way you can get FAS Cherry $4.00 ~4.50 .Buy a Truck load sell it in Can and retire .
Sounds like your really proud of your work , you guys still working with hand tools up there ? If job only takes 300 brd ft. small Kit. you would go broke hear trying to get those kind of prices- $ 10,000 would be pretty stiff down my way, but we use power tools.
We have been doing Custom Cabinets every day for 25 years and use over a 1,000 brd ft. each week, not a real big Operation but we get to eat a bean every now and then.
You can get Red Oak for $ 2.35 what are you paying $ 8.00
Maybe we need to start shipping Cabinets to Can , You wana buy some?
Ron
Well I guess it's not a "small" kitchen, perhaps medium. about 26 lin. ft. including pantry, solid material countertops, full extension drawers, etc. That price would also include re & re. Yes, they use power tools. Would love to do it myself but rather a big task in my garage with limited finishing skills. My wife would NOT appreciate a one-year construction schedule.
Brian
Alder can look pretty nice and birch is readily available and looks a lot like maple. In the late 60's vertical grain fir was used on a lot of cabinets.
I just got an issue of Wood Magazine that has an interesting article about finishing less expensive woods to look like high $$ work.
Jesse David,
A couple photos of a soft maple kitchen I recently finished. Soft maple works well and finishes nicely I think. Anyway the pics should give you an idea of how soft maple will look. This has a gloss finish.
Bill
One other path you could explore would be local sawyers in your area.
Often times these folks will have interesting woods that are usually not available in commercial quantities -- Mulberry, Black Locust are a couple I have found around here (MN). Generally, they dry them with a solar kiln.
You will have to ask around to find out if anyone is doing this kind of thing in your area -- other cabinetmakers, woodworking clubs, farmers, lumber yard people, city government types (who might know about removing dead or diseased trees), etc.
I just know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes:
Have you thought about poplar? It's normally the go-to hardwood when planning on a painted finish, but I've seen some pretty interesting color and figure on poplar boards that would look good with a clear finish. You'd have to pick through quite a bit of it to walk away with a batch of consistent color and figure, but it's stable, works really well, and is one of the lower priced hardwoods.
I love the smell of sawdust in the morning.
No flame from me, Douglas - I love the look of poplar. I've often thought about doing a project in it using some of the wilder colors for door panels and rails/stiles. It definitely isn't for everyone, though. Most of my customers draw the line at oak. - lol
Wow, these forums are great! I just started posting questions last week, and i'm blown away by the volume and quality of the responses. Thanks, y'all.
This forum has provided me with some goot insights into the aesthetic considerations of different species, now i want to ask how they compare in other aspects. Lyptus, for example, sounds interesting, but it might be too difficult for me to work with, as i haven't a lot of experience with hardwoods and i'd like to start with something not too agonizing! I have moderate experience as a woodworker, but i've gained most of my experience in Dawson City, Yukon, where decent hardwoods, for the most part, are hard to come by and bloody expensive.
I was at a lumber dealer yesterday poking through their selection, and i'm curious about the properties (i.e. stability, workability, stainablility, etc.) of a few of the less expensive ones. The basswood was very clear and not too expensive, so was the ash (thought it didn't grab me as much). There was some even cheaper yellow poplar, but it was just too...well, yellow. Andiroba was another that caught my eye; what is that like to work with?
Jesse David
If this is paint grade, Poplar would be my first and only choice. Cheap, easy to tool, and holds paint well.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I always had a fondness for mahogney instead of cherry... Mahogney isnt prone to splotching when finishing, and it has a more "even" redish tone to it(in my humble opinion)....
whenever I do any projects where someone asks for cherry, I always push them to use mahogney instead....
I just built a telephone stand for a lady, and she was very wary of anything but cherry... I brought her in a board of mahogney to look at, and she fell in love with it... just gave her the piece today, and she was extatic...
PS - I checked local prices, and currently mahogney is cheaper than cherry too...
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