I’m currently remodeling my kitchen and I’m rapidly approaching the counter top stage. I planon using a 3/4″ MDF sub-base covered with 1/2″ Red Oak planks and African Mahogany edging. Problem is what type of top coat will best withstand the abuses of a wife and 2 kids. The guy at the local Woodcraft store says 6-8 coats of poly should be fine. Does anyone have a better idea and is poly food safe after it cures?????
TIA
Replies
Are you really sure you want a wood kitchen counter? Quite frankly, that would be my last choice - no matter how much polyurethane goes on it.
If a customer really, really insisted, I'd build them one but it would have a cast iron tail light warranty.
Why's that?
I love wood kitchen counters and they go over well with clients. Don't use a barrier finish like poly which can chip, allowing water to get underneath. Use many, many coats of a good penetrating finish. I like Waterlox. If you're unsure make a sample piece and abuse it. You'll be pleased with how well it holds up.
Steve
RE finishes for wood counter top:
my old timer mentor friend recommends mineral oil, as he claims it's cheap and non toxic
fine woodworking #177, p 22+ indirectly recommends walnut oil from the salad dressing aisle. expensive tho
whoa, avoid anything toxic!
"avoid anything toxic" -- therefore do not use walnut oil, as it can be "toxic" to those who have allergies. We go through this 3 or 4 times a year. Walnut or peanut oil should never, ever be used on cutting boards, bowls or countertops. You can't possibly know if you might have a guest someday who has these nut allergies and it can take an infinitesimal(sp?) amount to trigger an allergy attack.
OK, as to mineral oil, it takes more than you'd get off a countertop to serve as a laxative.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,It never occured to me that cured walnut oil could be a problem for those with nut allergies. Is this cautious prudence? Do you know of any studies you could refer us to? Thanks, Steve
I posted several links last year sometime (in the winter I think?). A search should find them. This isn't over-imagination on my part. If I have time, I'll try to find the thread for you.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I found one of the posts I made in December. Read through the thread starting here, you'll find a couple people who have first-hand knowledge of nut allergies. Look at my post #29 and you'll find a couple of links to allergy-specific web sites.
The allergic reaction is related to a specific protein. That protein will still be present even in a "cured" finish, and for the people who are severely allergic, it takes an unbelievably small amount to trigger a life-threatening attack. As you'll notice, reading the thread, I have a reason for being well-tuned-into this problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Jamie -I can attest to the sensitivity issue with respect to nut allergies. I know first hand of a case where a guy had a reaction to eating food that had been prepared in vessels that had been used to previously cook food in peanut oil. ...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Good thread link. Thanks.Steve
The biggest reason is that they will go rancid.Gretchen
While I agree rancidity is an issue, I totally disagree that it's the "biggest reason" not to use the nut oils. Rancidity is disagreeable and possibly inconvenient should it cause, say, stomach upset. Anaphylactic shock is more than a bothersome incident.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I know anaphylactic shock is THE most important reason BUT it shouldn't be considered in the first place because it is inappropriate.Gretchen
"BUT it shouldn't be considered in the first place because it is inappropriate." Quite true, but while some readers will pooh-pooh the "rancid" argument, virtually all will pay attention to the allergy issue when they are educated. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm not a regular at Knots, just drop in now and again to cause trouble, so here goes--from what I've read (and I could be wrong, maybe others will add their votes one way or t'other) any finish is safe once it has cured. (Some do contain metalic (heavy metal) dryers that wouldn't be good to bathe in or to peel off the whole finish and eat, but other than that, even they are relatively safe because of the minute quantities).
I've also read that vegitable and nut oils will eventually get rancid. This I am not sure of--seems like once they've cured or oxidized or whatever they wouldn't get rancid, but I know that skin care oils can get rancid in the bottle.
If you want a finish you could actually ingest, then mineral oil (though it would have a laxitive effect) or shellac (often used to coat candy and pills) would be the thing to use. However, shellac would be easily damaged by alcohol, and water, like if a glass set on it for very long and it scratches (though scratches can be repaired with alcohol or more shellac).
Okay, what to use. I've heard that polyurethane is tough, though I'm personally not that fond of it. Rubbed in oil like Watco or Danish or boiled linseed are good and easily repaired (just rub more in when it gets scratched or worn or water spotted), but oil isn't waterproof. I don't consider that a big problem, but some do.
Hope I didn't confuse you more than help.
"any finish is safe once it has cured." ...except maybe lead based paint :-)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Which is no longer sold.Gretchen
Lead based paint hasn't been legal to sell in the U.S. for twenty or thirty years.
John W.
1975... that does not me there aren't cans of it sitting on shelves in basements. Besides, I was trying to be light and forgot the ":-)"M
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I've sprayed wooden counter tops with pre-cat lacquer and it seems to hold up well. Art
What is the difference of pre-cat lacquer and just labeled Cat lacquer ??
I use M.L.Campbell Magnamax, and the catalyst is added at the time of purchase and the lacquer is good in the can for six months. Some other lacquers have the catalyst added at the time of use. Hope this helps. Art
Poly is safe after it cures - as are all currently available wood finishes.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish3.html
Worry more about long-term appearance and maintenance.
I'd approach it like an exterior finish, like on wooden boats, only with less UV. The problem with any hard film finish (like poly) is that eventually water will might get under it, where it gets trapped and will cause mold spots. You could fight that by first using a penetrating sealer like thinned epoxy, as is often done on boats. If the counter doesn't get much sunlight, you could use epoxy as a finish surface as well; this is commonly used on bars in restaurants.
One alternative is to use a penetrating finish and commit to regular maintenance. But how likely are you to reapply Waterlox in your kitchen once or twice a year?
With 1/2" red oak, you really need to seal up tight or you will have long-term problems. If you are stuck on that material, I would definitely recommend a penetrating epoxy "soak" to try and make the wood itself waterproof. And remember to apply everything equally to both sides.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Grizzly, among others, sells a product called, "Behlen Salad Bowl Finish". In it's cured state it is a clear finish that is safe for food contact.
You apply it with a cloth just as you would an oil finish. It has the "film building and sheen producing qualities of a varnish."
I've never used it but it sounds like it might be pretty good for your application.
Let me bring up a point that is more important than the finish to use.
You posted "I planon using a 3/4" MDF sub-base covered with 1/2" Red Oak planks". This will not work. The solid wood planks will expand and contract with changes in moisture and humidity--of which there will be much in a kitchen. The MDF will not expand and contract. Something's got to give and you will end up with warping and/or splitting.
You might want to re-think your construction plans. While I am not a fan of wooden counters, you can get by if you use just solid wood without a sub-base.
Good point Howie, never thought about that. If you read through the replies I've received about 1/2 the people that have posted say they dont like or even hate wood counter tops...............why is that????
Eric
I don't have them but the wear and tear my counters get from all kinds of things--and the constant washing. I would think they would need renewing fairly often--not an attractive long term thing.Gretchen
On the chance you do want to go with solid wood countertops let me say that we built a couple in the shop I used to be involved with. We made the customer sign a waiver about the lack of long term durability of any finish.
What we ended up using was the same finish used on butcher blocks and cutting boards. Namely a mixture of mineral oil and paraffin. This is a good treatment in that is sheds water and minimizes stains and foods from getting into the pores of the wood. It also will not be severly damaged by cut marks or dings. Best of all, it is easily repaired and retreated. The biggest problem is with end grain near sink cut outs or other areas of high water. The end grain must be completely sealed. We did this by coating the ends with two part epoxy.
You want to avoid any film finish as it will be breached by cuts and dings which will let water and food get into the wood. Once water gets under a film finish, the adjacent areas quickly deteriorate.Howie.........
I agree with most of that, except the mineral oil/paraffin recommendation. If it was a cutting board that would be fine, but for a counter top I think a harder and more easily cleaned finish is better. As I said earlier, how many people are really going to reapply finish to their counters regularly? So any recipe that depends on that is likely to fail, and the owners will then join the chorus of people saying wooden counters are no good.Why not use the same treatment as wooden bar tops (epoxy) or wooden boats (epoxy + varnish)? Or even the tint-base trick we were discussing on another thread. I think the success of wooden bar tops argues that this isn't as daft an idea as many here seem to think."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
On the first solid wood top we did, we used a two part varnish finish. In 3-4 months we had a call back to refinish the top. It had be used for cutting hot things had been put on it and dishes had been dropped on it, etc. In short, it looked lousy. Any countertop is going to get hard use and short of one of those pour on epoxy finishs, nothing will stand up.It's best IMO to use an easily repairable or renewable treatment. The pour on finishes come with their own problems. They should not be used on solid wood. The normal expansion/contraction of the wood can cause the top to warp because of the rigidity of the cured material. We would only use it on a compositon substrate or plywood. It too, begins to look lousy quickly as it scratches fairly easily. It's fine in bars, lights are dim and so is eyesight.Howie.........
On the first solid wood top we did, we used a two part varnish finish. In 3-4 months we had a call back to refinish the top. It had be used for cutting hot things had been put on it and dishes had been dropped on it, etc. In short, it looked lousy. Any countertop is going to get hard use and short of one of those pour on epoxy finishs, nothing will stand up.
Now that was a household that really didn't understand. They "wanted" a working cutting board countertop without knowing. I don't even think the pour on would stand up to this--cutting, heat?Gretchen
> about 1/2 the people that have posted say they dont like or even
> hate wood counter tops...............why is that????Kitchen counter tops are subject to spills and stains from any and everything in a kitchen, worst of all, food, worst of that, meat and other animal or even vegetable products that harbor bacterial in their raw state. Given that inevitably someone will cut on the countertop, this will produce microscopic crevices in which bacteria can breed and multiply. Quite simply, beyond any maintenace of whatever type of finish, they're just not sanitary unless maintained with scrupulous dilligence. Butchers in meat markets use wooden cutting block becaus they're easy on their tools (knives). But they're washed down every night with dissinfectant and sanitized. I remember one cafeteria we used to dine at where the specialty was prime rib sandwiches sliced to your specifications on the spot. The chopping block had about a 1" dish in it from all the cutting of all the sandwiches over who knows how many years.Oak would be my last choice, no, I wouldn't use it at all if that's all there was available. It's too open grain for a counter top. I don't care what finish you put on it. There's a reason why butcher blocks are made of maple. It's closed grain, dense and easier to maintain.Wood is a beautiful, natural material. I love having lots of natural finished wood around me. I love making sawdust and shavings. But it's the last thing I'd put on my countertops if for no other reason than hygiend and housekeeping. You can make your countertops 2" solid oak but you'll live to regret it............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Studies have shown that wood cutting boards are less hospitable to bacteria than plastic. Seems the wood absorbs the moisture killing the bacteria. I have a large, 4" thick end grain maple chopping block/island in my kitchen and while I'm not a total slob, I am a partial one. I wipe off the island every few days. Sometimes the chicken goo has started to dry. Never scrubbed, never bleached, never scraped. I coated it with walnut oil when it was new in '01. I cook for friends and neighbors a lot. No one has ever got sick. I've made similar islands for clients with the same care instructions and they're all (clients and islands) doing great.My counter tops are 8/4 cherry. Many coats of Waterlox when new in '97. They've never been recoated, probably due to my freewheelin attitude toward olive oil. Once again no scrubbing, no cleanser, nothing soapy. Just a clean damp cloth. They look better than great. I like the dings and dongs that show up. I call it the patina of use. Once again, I talk clients into wood counter tops whenever I can. Everyone is pleased.Thanks for letting me ramble, Steve
I call it the patina of use.. I told my girlfriend that and she said I was Just old???
Servo, I have been a kitchen builder for 33 years (sheesh) and I use West System epoxy thinned with denatured alcohol to brushable consistency as a barrier coat applied twice. Sanded smooth you can apply any kind of finish over it. Poly will work but I prefer conversion varnish. Whatever you do the sink area will still turn black eventually, some things will just stall it off. Good luck...aloha, Mike
Servo,
Wood is beautiful, but unless you want that conspicuously used, well-worn, appearance throughout your kitchen, it's an awfully high maintenance surface. Alcohol, acids, cleaning products, hot pots and pans, abrasion, dropped items, knife marks, and so forth are certain to provide a well-worn appearance - unless you want to spend more time babying your countertops than using them.
If you're bound and determined to use wood for countertops, I'd reconsider the use of a ring-porous species like oak - with all of its convenient hiding places (in the form of large pores) for microbes and such - in favor of a diffuse-porous species like maple - keep it well away from sinks,and limit its use to designated cutting boards.
Those are just my observations and preferences; you are obviously free to to whatever makes you happy,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
servo,
Others have shared lots of good info. I'll second the notion on solid wood, not on an MDF substrate. I made solid wood counters last year, one of rock maple and the other of walnut. They both look great after 12 months. They were finished with General Finishes seal a cell, about 4 coats on each. After a month or two, I added two more coats because I wanted more shine and have done nothing since. That said, you need to know a few things that will help them look good, longer.
Don't cut on them. Use cutting boards. They're called counter tops, not cutting boards.
Use trivets for hot pans. Wood burns, so does most finish. Trivets do not unless made of wood. And it the trivet is burned it means your counter isn't.
Wood is softer than many other materials and will develop a patina which is a marketing term that means dents, dings and chips. Expect them or make the counter tops out of something harder.
That's it!
Kell
3/4" MDF .. I use ALOT of 3/4" MDF .. DO NOT use it around water... Get some 3/4 ply of a good grade that is made with water proof glue!..
Just me... Put anything ya want over it and No worries!
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