Good morning hand tool gurus,
I have a Bedrock 606 that I am trying to save. It has a small crack down one side of the plane (in the usual spot they usually crack). My father is a professional welder and has brazed it and it looks nice. It is very strong joint again. My question is, can I go ahead and finish the rehab and go ahead and use it like a normal plane? I didn’t know if once its cracked, its done for? Please let me know because the rest of the plane is in great shape and I would really like to use it.
Thank-you,
Jeff
Replies
Cast iron is not an easy material to weld. If your father did a good job, and it sounds like he did, the plane should be fine.
Heating of the cast iron during the welding process will cause the casting to move a bit. You should re-fettle the bottom to make it flat again, and make sure there is no twist to the sole. Also, check the mating surfaces between bedrock and frog to make sure they make full contact, and ensure that the frog isn't rocking.
Assuming that everything is properly aligned without any twist, you should be able to use that plane like any other without incident. Put er' to work!
Oh, and don't drop it! <g>
Jeff
If you can fettle the sole flat then you should have no problems with the plane. Since you're plane was cracked, the bed may be slightly warped. Get yourself a bunch of various grits of sandpaper from 150-600. Soak them in water and slap 150 grit on top your tablesaw and start sanding the bed flat. Get the bed flat as possible around the mouth area, the front, and back of the bed. Then repeat with 220, 320, 400 and 600 grit. Once you're done with 600 you'll have a bed that will give a mirror finish. If your bed is really warped, you may need to start with 80 grit sandpaper.
I've seen plenty of welded planes and I've never felt comfortable with them. Especially a heavy plane or long plane that might see rough use, I think you could have problems, if not today then down the road. You've lost section properties there and the left and right sides are different now. I suspect that tool will never be the same as it was. Then there are corrosion issues.
I think you should part this tool out and sell the sole on ebay with very good pictures of the weld. Frankly, I don't think much of the 605 or the 606 so I think this should be no great loss to your shop. The bedrock mechanism isn't particularly helpful for a plane of that length. Blade chatter, stiffness and frog mouth adjustment are all virually irrelevant to its mission of rough flattening.
I think its frog may be common to other bedrocks'. You may choose to salvage the good parts for a clapped out 604, 607, or 608 that could all actually benefit from the bedrocks' advantages.
Stanley took a decent design and slathered it over their entire product line. That may have been good business, but it didn't help us much. I'd like to see LN continue to improve upon the bedrock design by widening the #8, lightening and cheapening the 5, dicthing the 6, and shortening the #4.
Adam
Adam,
would you like to instead tell us: a) by how much you think a #4 needs to be shortened b)is it to chopped on the front or back or both and c) why this needs to be done.
In the meantime I agree that welded planes are not likely to live long or well if at all. That is because electrical welding of THIN cast iron is never a good idea.
Since we are told that the plane in question only has a crack rather than bits missing or separated, either bronze braseing or silver soldering will make a very strong permanent reliable repair. Silver soldering is nothing to do with lead soldering . Silver soldering works by capilliary action on close fitting parts. Bronze braseing can fill gaps within reason.
Whichever process is used it needs to be done by an experienced operator-not just someone who says he can "weld".And then the plane needs to be checked out for distortion as we have already been told.
I don't know if existing bronze can be melted out and replaced with silver solder.
Philip Marcou
Hi Philip,Thanks for your interest:I would shorten the #4 by at least 1-1/2" to 7-1/2". This is the traditional length of wooden smoothers and seems a good starting place. As you know, shorter smoothers perform their office better. I want a smoother that smoothens only, doesn't flatten. People complain about the time it takes to prepare a board by hand. Maybe its because their smoothers require perfect flatness to function. Mine don't. I think in general traditional wooden planes are more highly optimized for the actual work done. The short planes are shorter and the long planes are longer and all of them are lighter and have thicker irons.If I were you, I'd try to injection mold plastic plane bodies similar to wooden planes'. I think the real world performance would be far and away superior to everything else on the market today. One of the problems I've encountered is that the tool makers are divorced from the user community. Worse, so many tool makers build tools with their own values and sensibilities in mind. Stanley was certainly guilty of that. Though I don't own any of your planes, I'm thrilled by the way you keep in touch with users. I don't want to label you, but the, for lack of a better term, boutique tool makers, are really moving the state of the art in exciting ways and directions. I think you are one of those people, producing the best of the past, but not fettered by the bad designs. But there's clearly still more to be done.Shorter smoothers, longer try planes would be one direction I'd like to see us move in. Lighter planes would be another. Planes so cheap and indestructible, schools around the world could have them would be another. A plane you could bury, drop and not break, or leave out in the rain would certainly find its adherents. That sounds like a plastic plane to me; PAI, delrin, maybe even UHMW, but there may be other solutions.Adam
P.S. Brazing iron with silver or bronze is never as strong as the uncracked iron. But for a plane that sees not an inconsiderable amount of stress, stiffness of the joint is the issue, not strength. The plane in question will do "funny" things as a result of the left side having different mechanical properties than the right. Every stroke will twist the plane in ways it wasn't designed for. You can weld steel and have the weld as strong as the steel. But brazing is different. And repairing any casting, regardless of the material is never easy. Where I live there's a bell with a very bad crack that folks have been meaning to fix for some time now.
Adam
I don't see the point in shortening a #4 to the size of the #3. Companies like LN are already making that plane. It's, simply, a #3. At 1 3/4" width, it has a tad less width, but that's why there are so many choices.
Personally, I prefer to smooth large table tops with a 4 1/2, with york pitch. But, that's a personal choice based on experience and on results. I certainly wouldn't want my 4 1/2 to be 7 1 /2" long, though.
Wood bench planes are what they are. Some like them, and some don't. There's no need to model an outstanding looking and extremely functional plane like the metal smoother after a 300 year old design. Not everyone is as enammered with the 18th century way of working wood as you are. My customers won't tolerate inconsistent drawer side thicknesses, and roughly surfaced inner panels. By the way, I didn't look that stuff up. I got it from your articles, so if it's inaccurate, well, ........my humble apologies for misquoting the source.
Jeff
" My customers won't tolerate inconsistent drawer side thicknesses, and roughly surfaced inner panels."
Jeff,
Anyone that gets a piece I made doesn't have any choice in the matter. Hell, in my work inconsistent thickness and rough surfaces are liable to show up anywhere! :)
Rob
Rob
That's just me in a pot stirrin' mood this morning.
Jeff
Good morning Jeff ... Good morning Adam
Looks like another great day here in Paradise.
In regard to the length of a smoother, I have several of differing lengths. My longest (excluding those that are defined as "panel planes", such as a LV LA Jack) is the Marcou S15 at 11". This is a long smoother, and is reserved for extremely interlinked grains in those boards that are not critical with regards thickness. At its length, this plane will flatten as well as smooth (of course the amount of thickness removed per shaving is minute, but it has to remove the hills before it reaches the valleys).
At the other end of the spectrum, where I am working with boards that I have planed a tad too close to the line and now have concerns about thickness, then I turn to a short smoother. I want to smooth the surface of a board that is already acceptably flat (such as when there is a little tearout that needs to be removed). Then I might go to a 3 1/2" Mugingfang mini smoother ..
View Image
... or I might use the infill I built out of a Stanley #3. This one is cut down to 7 1/2". Both planes have a 60 degree angle of attack.
View Image
That little Mujingfang is amazing for its size (and price) (the HNT Gordon palm smoother is very similar in dimensions and better built but several times the cost). I recommend all to get one (note to self .. purchase more Muji shares).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek
My hands are too big for a smoother only 3 1/2" long!!! I'd be draggin' my knuckles across the work, and then Charles would accuse me of being a knuckle dragger.
If I'm working on a top with a "rustic" (my word for slightly wavy) finish, showing plane marks, then to smooth it to remove tearout, I'd simply use my 4 1/2 skewed sideways a bit to handle the peaks and valleys. Also, the #3 would do it, but once again, that would take forever.
I can't imagine how long it would take to smooth a dining table with that mujangjingling thing, and I'm certain I wouldn't enjoy it. It does look quite functional, though, and you're not the first to mention it as a quality tool. I believe I have seen those for sale at Japan Woodworker.
Take care,
Jeff
Hi Jeff
I certainly wouldn't want to risk you being called a knuckle dragger .. :)
It is evident that I omitted an important fact in using the little Muji. Most of the time it is used after other smoothers have already done their dastedly work. I too shudder at the thought of attempting to smooth a large area with such a tiny plane. It is a clean up plane.
Regards from Perth
Derek (clearly suffering sun stroke)
Hi Jeff,I work 100% by hand. What I want is to have the choice to flatten with a tool that's great for that (a long tool) and smooth regardless of flatness. What I particularly don't want is a single tool that does both. That takes away my ability to choose. In this case, the 300 year old tool has a better, more highly optimized design. In a hand tool shop, I don't want any multi-function anything. I want every tool tweaked for its purpose and for the material I'm working (like my rip saws which are nearly species specific).Now what I do with my tools or don't do with them is a separate matter. In case you're interested, my customers won't pay me enough to "4 square" the 100bdft in a small chest. Mack Headley says that takes 1 hour/bdft. I have to finish the chest in under a week to sell it, so that's out. And I'm comfortable with my approach because that's what I see was done.So in terms of the planes, I prefer the older design that's more highly optimized. They give the worker more choices and faster work for 100% hand tool users. If your boards are spitting out of a planer, it almost doesn't matter what plane you use. Go ahead and smooth with a #5 as many here do. I think the authors and pros who do this, should be forthcoming about the initial conditions of their stock, however. Their approach simply wouldn't work (or would take too long) in my shop.Jeff, I know I don't need to tell you this, but this is a conversation. I'm just trying to make a point here. Please feel free to disagree with it. What I wrote sounds sorta emphatic, but its just what I think until you enlighten me to my complete ignorance.Adam
Edited 2/23/2008 6:56 am ET by AdamCherubini
Adam, my man
First of all, you may be a lot of things ( I don't know 'cause I haven't met you yet!), but I'm pretty darned sure that ignorant isn't one of them. I also know that you're input here, and elsewhere, is guided by the way you choose to work wood. Believe me, I find a certain level of mystique to an all hand tool environment. I wished I had the time, I truly do.
For conversations sake, I simply wanted to point out that there would be no reason to shorten a #4 metal smoother, or any other built for the purpose, down to 7 1/2". In my shop, with the only exception being large, wide slabs that exceed the capacities of my power tools, I have to mill stock as fast as possible. Once in a while, I drop a wide hunk of timber on the bench and have at it. It gives me a tremendous appreciation of how my grandfather (who was a professional jointer) had to prep all his timbers, as he had no other choice.
That's the beautiful thing about the commonality of why we really come here to this site. We all love the wood. Now, poor ole' Charles doesn't believe any of the hobbyists should even be permitted to call themselves "woodworkers", as if it were some knighthood, or something else. I don't feel that way at all. If some guys simply want to outfit their shops with the prettiest tools they can put on a shelf, then by all means, have at it. I hope they give Philip and Ron a call, and buy everything those fine fellas make. If they just want to lock a board in a vise, and start making thin fluffy shavings, just for the sheer pleasure of it, then I think that's just great. My dad never was, and never will be a woodworker. If I hadn't seen my grandpa's tool chest when I was a wee lad, I might have never even known about woodworking, and I'd be missing out on one of the greatest passions (next to my family) in my life. Some young kid is going to see his father's tool collection going mostly unused, and is going to become the next Maloof, or whomever (Insert favorite mentor here, I don't have one). That's how this craft stays alive.
By the way, I hope that your column viewership at PW continues to grow, and I think you should always have to wear that hat. It was missing in the last few shots of you in the mag. PW is doing a great job with that mag right now, imho. It looks like fun.
Jeff
BTW, I'll bet you can figure out a way to operate a 15" planer with a foot treadle, just like your Jet spring pole lathe! <G>
"BTW, I'll bet you can figure out a way to operate a 15" planer with a foot treadle, just like your Jet spring pole lathe! <G>"Drat!!! I gotta find a coffee proof keyboard!!
As soon as I saw the word welding used I knew there was confusion as to what was going on.
Folks are confusing the high temperature of welding with the lower temperature of brazing. A huge difference. The preferred way to do this repair is silver braze or hard solder. Yields a pretty much invisible repair compared to bronze rod. Temperature is around 1,150 Fahrenhite and is the same thing used to hold the carbide tips on saw blades so is very strong. Plane should be fine but have your dad try silver braze next time. Jewelers use silver braze so that should give an idea of the sensitivty of the technique. It's available in different temperatures so one could silver braze a spout on a teapot then later do a handle without the previous item falling of while brazing on the next item.
RickL,
I once saw an advertisement from a guy who claims he can braze bench planes to an invisible repair. I assume he uses the technique you talk about? Also, I have a Stanley No 10 1/4 Rabbet Bench Plane that has been brazen with bronze. Can the process be reversed to remove the bronze then re-brazed using silver rod so that the repair is unnoticeable?
Mike
I can't say for certain because I never tried it but in my experience of silver brazing when I was working as a Metalsmith one directs the heat in the direction you want the silver braze to flow. So putting heat on the front of the crack or joint as the case may be and the braze would be applied from the back and flow towards the heat so it might be possible to have the bronze braze flow out and be replaced with the silver braze. Sorry I can't give your more than a theoretical answer. I'll see what I can find out.
There's a lot of sources of people who silver braze locally than you would know. Silversmiths, jewelers, saw sharpening shops who do retipping, metalsmiths ( a real mixed bag of folks and various skills), some welders might know about it.
Edited 2/21/2008 2:35 pm ET by RickL
Edited 2/22/2008 8:06 am ET by RickL
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