Hello:
I am considering the purchase of a beading tool. I am looking at the Veritas Beading Tool from Lee Valley (a wooden model for $54 with an additional $24 for eight cutter blades) or the Bronze Beading Tool from Lie-Nielsen ($145 including eight cutting blades). I have done a search here and find that there are several of you who have purchased the LN version and seem to be happy with them.
My first application will be to cut thin beads on cherry stock for picture frames (for photographs). The stock is only about 1-1/8 inches wide. I am thinking two beads on the outer side of the front face and a single bead on the inner side. Since cherry burns so easily, I thought this may be a good project for me to start developing my skills on the “Neanderthal” side of the house. 🙂
I understand that making my own holder is also an option and will probably try that later. It just seems more convenient and flexible to start with a full kit. In some ways, I don’t even know what profiles I’ll like.
The cost differential between $79 and $145 is not a deal breaker given that I would be buying a beautiful tool that I would enjoy using.
Any advice? Have any of you regretted buying either tool? Does this sound like an application for a beading tool?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Dave
Replies
You could also buy a Stanley 66 from ebay or an old tool dealer. I have a 66 and LN's blade set. Works a treat. Scratch stock type tools aren't that complicated. Any you mention would likely work fine.
I have the Veritas tool. While it works fine, both the wooden shaft and the face of the stop block wear easily as they rub against whatever it is you're beading. If you're working with cherry, which is relatively soft, you're probably fine. But if you were working with hard maple, then you'd likely wear the tool pretty quickly.
-Steve
Steve,
I'll loan ya my #45. I'll be picking up a #55 in a few days if that's your preference. But you'll have to wait till I master it first!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Samson and saschafer:Thanks for your feedback. Steve, your feedback regarding the wear on the Veritas is especially helpful.Dave
The Stanley 66 is functionally equal to the LN and the LN cutters fit exactly.
Hello Dave,
The LV and LN are both fine tools; I don't own either but, I have tried them. If you want to have some fun, take an old piece of scraper blade, saw blade or what-not and make a scratch stock. Designing the stock and scratching some beads is very enjoyable and it only cost me about an hour of my time.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
I didn't know that the Adobe Reader would do that. Very Cool!
Nice demo of your tool.
Mike D
Bob beautiful photos. I'll be coming up to Blue Mtn Lake from NC this summer and over to Bath ME. Can't wait to see the clear waters of Lake George and over to Hamilton Co. Hoorah.
I was thinking about sending a photo of a scratch stock to the original knotter on the subject.
You have answered it better than I could hope to do. Great job with the Adobe shots.
I have a dozen of the tools you have in the photos. Not as pretty.
You don't need the overpriced stuff from LN or LV. You can take an old hacksaw blade and a chain saw file and make a beading tool that will do anything that 150.00 tool will do. You can also feel some pride knowing that bead is unique not some mass produced profile. That has to count for something?
For some really small and pretty little beads, get a set of needle files and make some of the nicest beads out there. Great. They have just a little something thats uneven??? You. Human. Handmade brother.
Edited 2/13/2008 9:12 pm ET by danmart
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Bob, your pics are great. Thanks.Dave
Make your own and buy a set of blades many stores stock them if you don't want the fun of making your own blades from saw steel Think you could make the stock out of rosewood with ivory tips!!! <g> go over big on knots
Hi Dave
I have the Stanley #66, which I have modified (of course), and made beaders along the lines of the Veritas' (with their blades). My recommendation would be to make a scratch stock along the lines of those used by Garrett Hack.
Here is my article to the mod for the #66 (it can also be used for and will improve the LN):
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/No66Beader/No66Beader1.asp
This one was where I used a Veritas-type scratch stock ..
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=46087
Here is Hack's scratchstock. Note the nice, long fence for registration. It is quick to make and cheap. I have made many out of a piece of scrap and a cut off of old bandsaw blade. Do a search on FWW for his article.
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Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek and flairwoodworks -Thanks for the input. Derek, your articles and pics are great.So far, most of you have suggested making a scratch stock myself. Isn't there anyone here with a purchased LN beading tool happy they purchased it (rather than "rolling your own")? Thanks again for all the feedback.Dave
I'm very pleased with my 66, which is essentially the same thing as the LN.
I have no experience with the LV. I have the LN beading tool and it works perfectly. I have also made a scratch stock when the handle of the LN would get in the way. Blade adjustment is easier and more precise on the LN than a homemade version.
I have the LN, and it is a great tool. Very solid and heavy, and a great fence set-up. There is one fence for straight work, and one for curved work. Additionally, there are two blade blanks that are not hardened and allow you to grind your own profiles. I have made some of my own tools, and am making a spokeshave now, but I in no way regret getting this tool. Well I got it for Christmas, so its not like I paid for it. However, I would have bought it had I not gotten it for Christmas. The bottom line, is, do you want to pay for a very flexible tool that will last forever, and work like a charm right out of the box, or do you want to make one? I can recommend this tool, as it is made very well like most LN products. I think it might excel over a shop made wood version for the following reasons: the bronze wears extremely well, and will not lose accuracy over the course of time, the cuts are very repeatable and very accurate, it is a very comfortable tool to use, and super easy to master. And, you can make your own profiles. Shop made scratch stocks are cool, but this is one tool I personally would rather buy than make.
Samson, Ben and Joe:Thanks a lot. I think I'll go ahead and buy the LN. I have one of their small hand saws (a gift from my daughter) and I just feel good when I pick it up. I am quite sure I'll fool around and make some scratch stocks later (especially for very fine and shallow beads) but this will get me started. I can ease into this skill with the kit and go from there.Thanks again one and all,Dave
Make your own. Jigsaw, hacksaw, bandsaw, and reciprocating saw blades are all good sources of steel and fairly easy to shape. The body can be as simple as a stick poking through a block with a hole in it, secured with a wedge or screw.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Get the L-N. Tony Murland sells and extra set of cutters for it (or an old Stanley) that really expands what you can do with the tool.
Hi Boss,
Do you have a link for those extra cutters? I looked through his website and couldn't find them. Are they different from the ones LN sells with the new 66?
Thank you sir,
---Pedro
http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/0089.html
Thanks!
You're welcome. Good luck.
Pedro
It is much, much cheaper to make your own cutters. And this is definitely within the range of all woodworkers. If I can do it any can.
I keep a worn out 3/4" bandsaw blade for saw material (this fits the #66 perfectly - see my article). Just cut off a piece when needed (using a Dremel). Flatten the steel around the cutting areas (use both ends of the cutter) on both sides on a diamond stone (ideally to "extra fine" or 1200 grit). Then use chainsaw files to create flutes or beads, or a grinder for more complex shapes. I do not even bother to anneal or harden the steel. Just make sure that all edges - inside and out - are polished. Use slips or sandpaper for this.
It is worth noting that off-the-shef cutters, such as LN, Stanley and the UK ones, all still need to be honed. None are meant to work optimally out of the box. So you still have work to do.
I still use my #66, but this now works a lot better since I added a long fence. The advantage of the Hack-type beader is that it comes with a long fence. The disadvantage of both the original #66 fence and the LV-type beader short fence is the lack of registration one gets from these designs. A long fence is a HUGE upgrade and enables the scraping to be done with minimal slipping.
The other issue is that the #66 is directional, that is, it can only be used in one direction. The Hack beader can be used both ways since one tends to place the blade in vertically.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks Derek,
I certainly had no intent to spend a hundred bucks on those cutters, but the profiles look very interesting. I have read your article on upgrading the 66, and I think I may do the same for mine, that and cut some cutters for it. Truth be told, I almost returned it two weeks ago since I didn't see the use, now I'm planning on keeping it and using it to fool around with making cutters. Is it possible to use this thing to cut profiles across the grain or just with it?As a separate question, what are your thoughts on shaping the cutters on the LV plow for this purpose? I've got $300 to burn on a new plane and can't for the life of me figure out which one to get. This one is a contender, though I feel like the LV router can do the trick so I don't "need" the plow. I've got a smoother and a jointer. And I've got a scrub and a block. And I've got spokeshaves. I'd like a plane that can do something I can't with my current planes. I don't really see the point to a shoulder plane, and while I'd love a left-handed 140 skew, I have a hard time getting excited about this purchase.Please help me prop up the american economy with reckless spending on tools.
---Pedro
What point about a shoulder do you not see? I find it to be a very useful tool, and am considering getting a small one as a companion to my large one. Even if you make M & T joints with machines, I find it a very effective process to cut the tenons a little fat and then sneak up on the fit with a shoulder plane. They are especially effective if you do the wider M & T's in breadboard ends. From the planes you say you own, this would be the next one I would buy. I find the edge plane to be a great little tool as well. for $300, you can have them both.
It's not so much that I don't see the point, as that I don't see the point if one has a 140 skew which works as a rabbet plane for trimming shoulders or cheeks. I've looked at the edge plane, and the side rabbet planes from LN, and that combination is actually the front-runner right now. But I figured I'd get suggestions before pulling the trigger. I've also had my eye on the LV plow for a while, but I feel that having the router plane the plow only adds convenience, not actual capability.
Thanks for your reply,
---Pedro
I think you'd find a shoulder plane is quite a different animal from a 140. No doubt both will trim and shave similar parts, but the heft and method of registration of the shoulder is rather unique. Not that I care what you buy. More just saying you might want to try a shoulder sometime and not dismiss it as redundant if one has a 140.
Indeed, if I were going to be stranded on a desert island full of wood, but with only one plane, I'd guess I'd have to take a 10 because the jack rabbet could scrub, joint, smooth, shoot, cut rabbets, raise panels, etc. It wouldn't do every task optimally mind you, but it could do it. In short, just because two tool's capabilities overlap, it doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice to have both. ;-)
Please do care what I buy, I benefit from the advice :) So which shoulder plane? And what does it do other than tenons? And how would you rank the following list in terms of utility:
1) Plow plane
2) Shoulder plane
3) Edge plane
4) Side rabbet plane
Utility depends upon your methods of work and your planned projects. If you cut all your grooves with a router or dado stack, for example, you'll see little need of a plow. Similar example could be made for all these planes. In the same way, if you build only tiny delicate items, a large shoulder may not be what you need, etc.
I have a 248 plow, and use it often - mostly for panel grooves in doors and drawers.
A shoulder will clean/size rabbets - and if a smaller model, dado bottoms, etc. - pretty much any time you can imagine wer you want to have a right angle registration with the ability to cut right to the corner of the angle.
I have the LV edge plane. I use it from time to time, but not alot. It is fine plane, but my methods of work just don't call for or it or I've become comfortable with other tools to accomplish the same ends.
I have a 78 and a block rabbet - oh and a 10. I use them all, but in different ways. The 78 is the sort of go to for significant lengths of rabbet. The block does all sorts of stuff but would be a pain to run lengths with. The 10 is good for things like raised panels or very wide rabbets.
Thank you Samson. I do everything by hand, and all of my current projects involve smallish furniture: shelf units, side tables, coffee table, wall cabinet, etc... Is that an old 78 you have, or does someone make a new one? How do you widen a dado after it's made? Or do you just get it right the first time?
My 78 is from the 30's. They are not terribly expensive from old tool dealers or eBay sellers.
A side rabbet is no doubt best for widening dados. Like the Stanley 98/99 and LN's versions.
I cut dados in a variety of ways. Most often I don't adjust the dado, but instead the piece that will ride in it. Same with grooves. I also use the particular board that will ride in the dado as the guide for marking the dado or setting the guide boards.
That wasn't meant to be a put-down...but rather a genuine question. I do find the shoulder plane to be very useful, and as I said, would like to add a small one. In retrospect, I should have bought the medium size (though it wasn't available at the time). The large LN shoulder plane is an impressive plane, but it is a tad unwieldy...especially on smaller scale work. Take a look at the small Clifton one as well. I don't know if I will add that one or the small LN to the stable. The edge plane is one of those tools that seems like a limited-use tool, until you get one and realize how often you have an edge that you want to clean up. There is a monumental difference between the edge that comes off the jointer or table saw, and the edge that this plane produces. Granted, as mentioned before, there are other planes that can clean up an edge...almost all planes for that matter. However, I reach for this thing all the time. It is foolproof, and dead on. No risk of crowning the edge or making it an angle other than 90 deg., unless you want it. Simply said, this tool zips across the edge a few times and it looks like you just buffed and polished it. The small or medium shoulder plane and the edge plane would be on my list next if I were you. I don't think either of these will be a purchase you will regret. The other planes you mention, though great tools to have I think are higher on the risk scale of regret. In other words, tools that spend more time on the shelf than the bench. I think the edge plane will come out several times with each project, and likewise with the shoulder. Not that I wouldn't keep those other tools on your running list...
Thank you Joe,
I'll definitely get the edge plane. Now it's between the small shoulder and the side rabbet. I'm going to be making a lot of dados and I can see the need for the side rabbet planes. I'm torn!
---Pedro
Pedro
If you have a bunch of dados to cut, then you will find a side rabbet plane invaluable. These are not used much in other areas, but they are the only tool you can use reliably to adjust a dado. You will thank the stars when it is needed.
I began years ago with a Stanley #79, and about two years ago I received the LN set as a birthday present. They are little jewels to look at and as tools they work wonderfully.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thank you Derek, for your reply. I do have a number of dados to cut on a few upcoming projects, so I'm leaning towards getting them. Your recommendation carries a great deal of weight. Have you ever used them to widen a sliding dovetail? Will they work for this as well?
Thanks,
---Pedro
Hi Pedro
Yes, I've used the #79 on sliding dovetails. Here is an exerpt from the article/review of the LV Router Plane:
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Ah yes! I knew I'd seen that somewhere, but had forgotten where. Funny I should ask you. I've been reading so much over the past year I can't remember what I read where. I just finished your review of the krenov smoother minutes before I got this message. It was excellent like all your other reviews. Thank you for taking the time to write them all.
Best,
---Pedro
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