BATHTUB CAULKING ? hi, just had a new tile floor put into my bathroom. natural stone. really pretty. they used a grout that abuts the bathtub, but i want to know if they should apply caulk to the floor where it ajoins the bathtub???? for better sealing. thanks!
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Breaktime may give you better answers.. If it were me.. A high quality silicone caulk is a MUST in all areas around a tub... Not sure if I would seal by the floor unless you expect a lot of water down there.. The grout should prevent most water seepage I would imagine.. Just think about it.. A quality ply is used as a base on some tile floors that are grouted... Hardly ever rots... But sometimes!
thanks. no, i am not anticipating floods of water on the floor, but i am concerned that the seal between the grout and the bottom of the bathtub might not be tight, over time. i am thinking that i am answering my own question, here. the contractor says, of course, that caulking should not/does not have to be put on, but then, it would cost him time/labor to put it down. thanks, again.
Gee you can do it.. $5.00 for the calk.. And a few rags to wipe it off you finger as you smoothes it off...
EDIT::: Nice Calking is a ART!
Edited 11/5/2005 1:24 pm by WillGeorge
yes, you are right. i CAN do it. but i am paying a contractor a king's ransom to put in a new kitchen, etc. he put in the new floor, and if caulking is part of a reasonable job, then it is HIS job to do it. i have enough projects to do in my house. i was just trying to figure out if this was a reasonabe request. thanks, again.
Suzy,
Your request is a reasonable one. The joint must be caulked, plain and simple. And if he complains, he is the unreasonable one.
Suzy,
It's true that this is more of a Breaktime question, but since I live in both of these worlds, I will chime in and confirm what everyone else is telling you. YES, he should put down caulk between a tile and any stationary object (i.e. wall, tub, vanity, etc.). You are absolutely correct that this grout will eventually fail: it's static, the caulk will solve this problem. Make sure you check it every 6 months or year.
He's either lazy, stupid, or he's overwhelmed with the hundreds of other little things that he has not finished on your job (just guessing!). It'll take him all of 15 minutes and at the prevailing rate of $12/hour for laborers, that's $3.
All of us contractors learn this lesson the hard way: you can do a whole addition for a person but if you don't caulk around the windows (or do something small like that), the client will trash you for the job--and they should. It's all in the details.
Tim
The tubs in my house have grout, and have shown no decline in 7-8 years. My Dad's house is still fine since he built it in 1970, and my little brothers house has had no problems since about 1973.
Those are the only 3 houses I have personally grouted, and only about 19 kids have grown up in those houses, with two still at home, so that might not be the strictest test a person could ever imagine.
I have taken up a number of toilets that were grouted to tile floors, and on every occasion, it has seemed a tossup whether the grout would break, or the toilet would.
That guy you think doesn't want to spend the extra money? He sure doesn't want to buy you a whole new floor next year. You can trust him on that one. It is in his own selfish best interests to make you happy, just so you will tell the right story to your friends and neighbors.
Technicly (again contrary to popular practice) a comode should never be caulked or grouted to the floor. If (or when) the wax ring leaks the "water" has nowhere to go and sits there rusting the flange and rotting the subfloor (if there is one). If the comode is not caulked you can see the leak and replace the wax before serious damage occurs. This year (so far) I've replaced three flanges because of this problem. One involved a demo hammer, another required replacing a lot of subfloor, tile and sheetrock (the comode was up stairs and ruined the down stairs ceiling). The reason that most are caulked or grouted is the the tile was not laid flat and the comode rocks. Of course few comodes are flat on their bottom anyway, so we use special plastic shims designed for the purpose.
The primary reason for wet area tile failure is from wall movements, grout is not flexible so when the walls move the fields seperate and allow water to more easily penetrate. The corners are also where the tile backing panels meet, creating another seam and potientially allowing the water into the wall. Taunton has a very athorative book on tile called Setting Tile by Byrne. This book is very accurate and all his information jives with the NTCA, and ANCI. I've read a lot of books that were full of half truths and opinions, this book is very accurate with out feeling like a technical text book.
Mike
I don't use wax rings on toilets anymore.
When a toilet is set on an unlevel floor, it must be shimmed to level, which leaves an unsightly gap, unless grouted or such. You can't just bolt it down tighter to a hard floor, like you do a soft floor. My method has never leaked, and it has been used to repair the leaks of beaucoup persons who have gone before me.
The toilets don't touch the wall, so if the wall moves or not is pretty much irrelevant.
I don't use wax rings on toilets anymore..Several years ago I put in a 'rubber seal' thing without wax. I got at a plumbing supply.. Inspector made me take it out and insisted I needed a WAX ring?? Go figgure...
How would the inspector know? I have never noticed wax rings in any building code.
I have all my electrical/plumbing inspected when I do it myself. Which is usually.. You can't sell a house here without their inspection. They check 'everything'! A pain but would cost you a bundle to fight it. Guess it keeps their 'tax' base higher?Inspectors by me don't state why.. 'Just do it' or tear it out,,,
Local ordnances rule where I live.. They usually follow the codes but they also have to prove they are the 'boss' I guess...
Inspectors most places I have been are pretty reasonable and knowledgeable. I have never had a problem with any of them. I have had some over the years come up with questions I wasn't always prepared for, but once you get your answers together, it has never been a problem.
Inspections for resale have never been as stringent as I thought they should be, but I guess I ain't in charge of the thinking on that subject. Those guys don't get paid any extra for doing any extra.
Local codes are usually just one of the national codes with a half page of local exceptions tacked on. I ain't believing a building inspector would look at your toilet rings.
If you don't use a way ring... what do you use? The funnel looking things? They still use a wax ring. And even with those it is possible for it to leak. Yes if the floor is way out of level or the tile is set very poorly then it looks bad. That was sort of my point. Most tile installers have to caulk or grout to hide the bad work.
Mike
There are newer products on the market than wax rings. They have been around for a while. I thought you were the guy trying to tell me all about this subject.
Go to: http://www.fernco.com. They aren't the only manufacturer, but theirs is the name that comes to mind right now.
You can't always blame the guy who put the tile on a subfloor that wasn't the most level thing you ever saw 30 yr. ago.
Most installers caulk or grout to do good work, depending on the floor they are installing to, and to deliver an acceptable finished product that fits in with the aesthetics of the floor.
I am famuliar with those, and from what I hear they are not proven to be reliable. But I only know that from talking to subs. I've personally never seen them other than on the shelf at the supply house.
Believe me, I know that the tile installers believe they are doing it right and doing a good job. I've been told that grout is beter in the corners because it looks better and it want age or mold like caulk. But if you look up the standards recomended by the trade profesional organizations and the manufacturers they are consistant with what I am saying. And premium sealants will not fail before the grout.
And if a sub ever leaves gaps under a comode I will blame him/her and they WILL come back and fix it or they will NOT get paid. If the floor is off more than the norm we use heavier notched trowels that will almost always get the floor flat (maybe not level). If the floor is off by more than that we use SLC's, and or repair the foundation. Even in the worst conditions a competint installer can still make a flat spot of 2 square feet so the comode will sit nicely. There is no excuse for having bad gaps around the comode base. And I think it looks a lot nicer to have a crisp line as opposed to a caulked joint. The most convincing arguement for caulking the base I have heard is that "fluids" can get under the toilet and it would be damn near impossible to clean. However I have replaced too many rusted out flanges and rotted subfloors to think that keeping under the toilet clean is more importaint.
Mike
Those waxless rings are a great improvement over the old wax rings. The are similar to the seals used in aircraft hydraulic systems and move the point of seal down into the drain pipe instead of having it right at the floor line.
You are familiar with them, but have never seen them on the shelf? I believe in one of your previous posts you claimed you had installed them and the building inspector made you pull them out?
The rest of your goings on have gotten us way away from the original question by a guy who wanted to know if he needs to caulk around his tub. You're going to repair foundations in every remodel that replaces a toilet?
Get real.
"I believe in one of your previous posts you claimed you had installed them and the building inspector made you pull them out?" You are confusing me with some one elses posts. I have never seen one installed. I work in a lot of reciently built houses and do a lot of bathroom renovations. The fact that I have never seen one is signifigant in itself.
"You are familiar with them, but have never seen them on the shelf" You misread my post on that one. I said that I have only seen then on the shelf. Never on the jobsite. I am very famuliar with them. There are a couple different styles. some use a thin wax ring to seal the funnel to the base of the commode. These are really only a minor improvement over the traditional wax ring, which is a proven design. Another style uses an adhesive to stick to the base (this is the style you linked to) I dont trust a thin, narrow adhesive strip to seal a comode; and neither do my subs. This area on a commode is not an ideal spot to try to stick something. It is not level or flat any missalignment can cuase the seal to be incomplete. Then there is a third type that uses a system of rubber doughnuts to seal the funnel into the closet flange while providing verticle adjustment. This is the most common. On the comode side it uses a thin rubber membrane that is stretched across the opening with a hole cut out. when it meets the raised flange under the comode it seals against it. This is a pretty smart system, and the most common alternative. The first time I saw it I thought about it and it made sense. But if the flange ever drops more than an 1/8" the seal will be broken and the mechanism is not spring loaded to maintain contact. Also when there is blockage in the lines and a plunger is used the positive pressure could blow by the seal. Wax rings replaced plumbers putty a long time ago and have proven to be reliable. They are resilient, meaning that if the floor, comode, or flange moves in or out it will stretch or compress to compensate while maintaining the seal. They do not degrade, rot or dry out. They are hydro phobic so water will not affect their stickiness. The most common failure I see is when someone pulled the toilet (usually to install tile) then re-set it by adding another wax ring without cleaning the old one off first. contaminates prevent the two rings from sealing.
So as you can see not only am I familular with them but have discussed them with lisenced plumbers and read a great deal on these subjucts in athorative books. So believe me when I say that I AM REAL. You seem to think that grout is an effective sealant! That is absurd, it is more pourus than concrete.
MIke
I never said grout was any type of a seal whatsoever. I answered a guy who asked about caulking around his tub, and gave a couple of examples of why I knew what I had to say to be true.
You have come along and lead the discussion off of that, and begun a debate of every point, subpoint of my mentionings, and then some fantasies of your own.
All of your fabrications, doubletalk, refutations and denials are growing by the day.
Now you want to tell me you are familiar, and describe something totally untrue to support your growing fictions.
Why? You don't believe your own nonsense. I know the truth of this. Wait a few years, and those wax seals will be gone from the market, never to return.
"All of your fabrications, doubletalk, refutations and denials are growing by the day.
Now you want to tell me you are familiar, and describe something totally untrue to support your growing fictions"
Could you elaborate? YOU are the one who miss quoted and incorrectly attributed statements to me. Then you attacked me personally. when did I lie, or deny something?
Obviously I have improperly infered that you believed grout was adequit to seal a tub, but that seamed to be what you meant when you told her she needn't worry about not using caulk. If you read any litriture about setting tile, even the tile and grout manufacturers', you will find they recomend sealing the end of the field and all corners.
Our discussion naturally led down a path on the merits of wax rings, and the other options. I gave you may experiences with the products, while you made snide comments, and accusations that made no sense. (mostly because you were confucing who made what posts). I am always open to new technologies and hoped that you could give me a logical argument about the merrits of the product.
mike
I don't know about all that, but you sure do make a mountain out of a molehill.
actually, it was not a GUY. it was a GAL, for what it is worth. : -)
I wondered why this was starting to sound like one of those conversations with an exwife that I could never get out of.
let's keep this civil.
So what's your method, if you don't use a wax ring?
Go to http://www.fernco.com. They have waxless toilet base seals. They are not the only ones. They can be repositioned, reused, ets.
They move the point of seal down into the drain pipe, instead of at the floor line. They are a great improvement.
Thanks, I'll look for those next time I have to mess with toilet. Hope it's a while, though.
When you notice those bolts getting loose at the floor. Change the seal. Change to the waxless seal, and it won't leak, if the bolts rot off or not. Those things will inspire immediate confidence, the very first time you use them. You will never have any doubt about how well they are working for you.
Usually you have a 10% to 15% holdback on the total job price until you have been satisfied that the work is completed. Caulk at the base of the tub is reasonable, regardless of necessity. That holdback can make the caulk job worthwhile for the contracter, or for you, depending on whether the contractor walks away from the holdback.
I just checked the three tubs in my house. Two tubs were in place when we put in tile floors--they have grout along the base of the tub, but no caulk. These tubs do have caulk between the tub and the wall. The third tub was new construction, and we put a wood-panel front on the tub, which is also caulk free.
You may need to remind your contractor of the golden rule: The one with the gold makes the rules. Don't be unreasonable, but realize some contractors are unreasonable and try to bully you into getting less than what you want. The rule, oft-quoted, should be stated as "You rarely get more than what you pay for." But you can certainly pay more than should. Make sure you get what you pay for.
Check over at BreakTime to get opinions as to whether caulk is necessary; but if you want it--insist on it.
Suzy -
Byu all means, insist on having the joint between the tile and the tub sealed. With a good quality silicone sealant, nut that white, water cleanup stuff. Done well it's a neat job. Done poorly, it's an eyesore.
Why would I suggest it's a necessity? Your bathroom floor will move over time just like all other wood projects. (the tile is sitting on a wood frame floor is it not?) Depending on how the tile was installed, you may experience some shrinkage of the grout as well. Minimal to say the least but it does and most likely will happen. Just enough to provide a capillary path for water to take to get to the substrate. If you have a good quality cast iron tub, filling it full of hot water will make it expand like anything else in nature. Continued movement will eventually cause the grout at the tub/tile joint to spall out.
How much water will be one the floor? Hard to tell but there's plenty to go around when you get out of a bathtub dripping wet. Unless you take the precaution of drying off in the tub first. And who's not ever forgotten to get the shower curtain or door closed poperly and ends up getting water all over the floor?
Sealing this joint is perhaps a 20 minute job for anyone halfway handy.
you all are great. thank you for your support. funny thing is that i i believe that i have a GOOD contractor, and he has been a pain in the butt about so many little things. -- like this about the caulk. i say that he is 'good' because he was recommended by a good architect and he has to good work to get referrals from the architecht. if i insist enough, he will do these kinds of things. but i have to insist over and over again. he built me an exquisite kitchen but it has been a nightmare dealing with him. he has hung up on me over the phone. called the punch lists that i have given him "sh*t papers, yelled at me more times than you would believe.
he tells me that simple little things 'cannot be done' --then when i insist over and over, he magically finds out that he can do them. the latest is a drafty door between the kitchen and the garage. a 60-90 minute fire door. the frame came with it, etc. it is all installed but the seal between the door and the frame is much too drafty ( i live where there is a real winter) . he tells me that he cannot fix it. cannot move the hinges or the locking mechanism. fine, i say, then fix the weatherstripping. he says that it can't be done!!!
sorry, just venting about today's latest argument. i know that there are some really good guys out there, but i did not get one of you to do my kitchen ! thanks again to all of you for backing me up. i appreciate it.
Suzy -Is our labeled door, the 60-90 minute door as you refer to it, is it a smoke door or fire door? It's either 60 minutes or 90 minutes but not both. A smoke door should not have any drafts around the frame or the sill. There should be a good seal between what you call the weathertripping on the frame and the door. Any kind of smoke seal would obviously be comprimised in the event of a fire but none the less, it shouldn't be drafty. Plus if it's between the garage and the living space you don't want potential fumes from the garage migrating into the living space.In the contractor's defense, I don't believe you can modify a UL rated assembly like a door and frame without risking losing the rating guaranteed by the manufacturer. None the less, if it were installed coorectly I don't think, or at least I wouldn't accept a drafty 60 minute, let alone a 90 minute door.Your first line of support might be your building inspector. if you're lucky enough to have one that's familiar with code issues, he/she may be able to assess the situation.I had a contractor hang up on me once. He never had the opportunity to again. Any professional that talks to a lady the way you describe doesn't deserve the title.
i cannot remember if it is a 60 min. or a 90 min. door. it is a fire door, tho. so it is probably 90 min. that's neat about what you say about needing to be tight for safety reasons. i don't believe the city inspector is going to be on my side, tho. i have not been impressed so far. i just don't see why he cannot get the door to fit tightly. isn't that his job to get it right???? no matter what kind of door, i don't understand why this is such a problem for him.
fortunately, i have held back a substantial amount of money,--15%-- so i have leverage here. it is just so infuriating. a 100 day job is on month 10. can you believe it. (just the fnishing touches, tho.)
thanks again for all of your interest and assistance here.
as far as hanging up and being rude.......of course i had already signed the contract before he started being rude to me. i assume that you say that he never hung up on you again--that you did not hire him for a job. but i have hired this man to put an addition onto my house and redo the kitchen. major money and time. oh, well. take care
Suzy -My conversation with this particular contractor was over the quality of finish on some concrete work he had subbed out. I could tell the minute the sub started stripping the forms and the way he attacted the problem I wasn't going to be satisfied with the results. Now a general contractor, or contractor that hires subs to do work under his/her contract with -you- is supposed to act in -your- best interests. His response when I called him to explain that what I was seeing wasn't satisfactory (and I knew it could be better; I've spent practically my entire professional life dealing with construction issues, concrete in particular) when I told him that he said "this is getting aggrevating" then later hung up on me. I fired him. You don't have to put up with rude treatment! Every contract has, or should have an escape clause that will allow either party to terminate the agreement. As for the recommendation from an architect, that doesn't impress me a whole lot. As for your fire door situation, you should really contact a local somebody in the know to come out and inspect the installation. Neither I nor anyone here can make a reasonable assesment of the situation without seeing it first hand, and we really shouldn't be trying to. Keep in mind what a 60 minute rating on a fire door means: it must keep the fire on the other side for an hour. Period. Again depending on the type of rating, it can also mean keeping products of combustion eg. smoke on the other side that long as well.I'd be surprised if it's a 90 minute door, though. The last residential project I worked on only required a 60 minute separation from the garage and the living quarters. Been a while, things may well have changed, though.
Suzy: At the end of any major project/job there should be a list (I can't remember what it is callled, getting old!) of all the little odds and ends that need to be taken care of. The owner makes the list (start at the begining of the job)and all items on it should be resolved to your satisfaction, if reasonable and in the contract.
Duke
Ah: punch list!!!
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My experience is that the grout seals it well. Caulk tends to mold, change color and is not attractive after it sets a while. When you put in a shower. The water sometimes beats right on the grout and unless the grout gets loose and comes out the wall behind it stays dry.
thanks. i bought a caulk[ mentioned in a magazine ] that claims to be mold and mildew resistant. acrylic latex caulk plus silicone. does this stuff work? i figured i would re-do all the caulking where the tub meets the tile on the wall.
suzy I know this is redundant, but the tub will move, every time you fill it with water and put yourelf in it, regardless of the rigidity of the floor. Absolutley, you should caulk. You may have to re-do it periodically too.
I've used mildew-resistant caulk too, but that doesn't mean mildew-proof. Need to use minimal bead and keep surface of it smooth to minimiz surface for mildew to form.
All intersecting planes must be caulked, for several reasons. I have argued with subs who were very good at their trade over this issue. Grout is not a sealant. All corners and at the end of the field must be caulked.
Mike
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