Hi,
I’m in a market for a bandsaw and have been spending some time looking at different machines. I’d like to find out the quality of cut on a Grizzly 17″ or 19″ bandsaw. If someone can share a picture or two of a piece of wood cut on these bandsaws, I would appreciate very much. I have a 8″ bandsaw with a 3 TPI olson blade and its cut is very coarse.
Thx
Q
Replies
Quang, the quality of cut is related to the particular blade and how well tuned the saw is, as much as the saw itself. Something to keep in mind as people post their responses.
I'm wondering how fine a tuning is attainable until the saw reaches its limits.
Q
Are you going to cut curves.. rip or re-saw? You cut curves with 6 TPI and up.. rip with 4 TPI.. and re-saw with 3 TPI generally. The more teeth the smoother the cut. But.. with that said you won't get a smooth enough cut IMO to consider finish grade on any. All will have to be cleaned up as a band-saw is not going to leave a finish as fine as a router that spins a carbide cutter at over 20,000 RPM.
Sarge..
"I'm wondering how fine a tuning is attainable until the saw reaches its limits." I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I'll guess that your wondering what's the best any given saw can cut? The good news is, just about any 14", 16", 19" or bigger saw will cut far, far better than the 8" saw you're using. The small saw causes problems for blades, due to the very small diameter of it's wheels, and the inability of the small frame to put significant tension on the blades.
On the other hand, any top-notch, very expensive band saw can be made to produce rough, ugly cuts if the user doesn't set the saw up correctly with a quality blade that's appropriate for the cut they're making.
A picture of a cut may not be the best information for you to get about the saws you're considering. People providing feedback generally will relate how easy/hard it was to assemble and tune the saw (missing parts, fit and finish, co-planar wheels, etc.), whether the trunnions are sturdy enough, flatness of the table, etc. Then they will discuss the quality of cuts -- generally how well the saw does when resawing a board is often the test performed.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You nailed all the factors that contributes to the saw performance. I called up a store to see a bandsaw, and the owner tell me bring a piece of wood to try a cut. He told me that the saw was tuned up pretty good and did a cut. Take a look.
Q
Looks like a pretty clean cut! What brand/size band saw?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It's an Agazzani, B-18, with a 1" carbide blade.
Q
Did you say quality of blade? Forestgirl is right on the money, and if you don't believe me look at the resawing thread we got going on where my ultimate problem was that a known quality blade was not up to par. Get you a good blade, learn to tension correctly and set the guides the BS is a JOY to work with. Don't do that and then you will have a BS like mine that is almost a year old and you say to yourself, "I don't know why I even bought the dumb thing". Good luck.
Bio.
I believe you in the quality of blade, but the blade is part of the story.
Q
I echo that. I put some of the other factors you need to look at too. I did fail to mention table being 90 degrees to the blade, rounding and lubing the blade, cleaning the tires, centering the blade on the crown and then last but not least setting the fence for drift. Now I think I covered most points :)
Bio
But you forgot to mention that you have a powermatic also. It's one of the quality brand.
Q
I do have a Powermatic, but you must remember for almost the entire year I thought a Powermatic BS = a HEADACHE. If you look at all the 14" BS on the market they are all basically the same. Table size, horsepower and then the thing that starts to seperate them are the blade guides. Some don't come with features like quick release on the tension and a decent fence with resaw post.
My Powermatic was a great buy because I got it during Woodcraft's 80th Anniversary (their corporate hq is here in WV) and it came with a free 6" riser, fence, and roller stand. All of this for 749.99 which is a GREAT deal for what they sell for now.
Bio
If I may digress a little, where in WV are you located? I am from Morgantown. You know, that town that has the least unemployment of any city in the US. I've been to Woodcraft in Parkersburg once but I think there is one in PA that is closer than Parkersburg.
I went to engineering school at WVU so I'm very familiar with Morgantown. Woodcraft is in Parkersburg, I currently live in Charleston.
Bio
Quang,You've asked this kind of question here before and you received a lot of responses. You seem to be agonizing over factors that are irrelevant.The tenon you showed could be made with ANY band saw, properly adjusted, running a sharp blade. Maybe even a little better, but why? To answer one question you asked, but not answered, that tenon is ready for gluing. There is no need to clean it up with a router.If your saw is not easily producing that quality of cut, or better with some additional effort, it's not set up properly or you are not using decent blades or both. (Excellent blades need not be expensive)Just about any machine on the market can be made to perform without criticism of its cut. Forget asking for people to post pictures. If you think that's going to magically lead you to the saw of your dreams, it won't.But a band saw does not produce a cut surface the way a circular saw blade does. It is NOT a finish cut, and it's a waste of time to strive for that kind of result. That's just a useless exercise in frustration and it's not what the machine was designed for.Rich
Rich,
Once again you are right on. You remember I had the HUGE resaw problems and I'm in love with my BS now because I have it setup RIGHT. Is my right the right right? Maybe not, but it is right for me and my needs. I just finished building a circle cutting jig and I was to lazy to change from my 1/2" 3 tpi blade so I said ok, I'll just try the circle with it. No, the edges aren't 100% smooth, but that is what that spindle sander in the corner is for, but it is the exact diameter of circle I wanted which means the thing is cutting right. I agree that the nature of the BS isn't intended to be your finish cut, but man when it is working right it can be a pleasant cut :)
Bio
p.s. Thanks once again Rich for the help.
Hmm.
I'm thinking that if the fly wheel doesn't run true because it's not concentric due to cheap bearing or poor tolerances, or weak frame that causes two fly wheels to rotate not true to each other, the blade will oscillate side way causing poor cut. Quality blade doesn't help. And the saw can't be tuned either. Yes right I'm still looking for quality cut.
Q
Quang,The potential problems you're worried about don't exist on any machine available for sale. You are making up problems. Not any of the various machines you have mentioned in your many posts suffer from anything close to what you're wringing your hands about.There is no question that there is higher value in the high end machines you have mentioned. I have operated the Minimax machines, a Hammer model (which I was going to buy) and I have seen Laguna demonstrated. They are beautiful machines.But even the inexpensive machines are capable of excellent work.I recently bought a Grizzly 17" G0513X2 and I am extremely happy with it.You have an 8" machine. What make? I don't know of any 8" machines. What kind of work do you WANT to do on a band saw? It sounds like you have little or no experience with any substantial machines.I think from ANY of the 14" Asian imports, up to the high end machines you have mentioned and everything in between, ANY machine will be far, far more than you are able to exceed, and capable of producing excellent cuts for any kind of purpose within their size range. None will exhibit any problem that can be attributed to inadequate or improper design.Rich
" The potential problems you're worried about don't exist on any machine available for sale. You are making up problems. Not any of the various machines you have mentioned in your many posts suffer from anything close to what you're wringing your hands about."
Did you see the 14" bandsaw report on FWW, that one of the respected brand has the flywheel 1/8" off plane and that they couldn't shimm it ?
Q
>'m thinking that if the fly wheel doesn't run true because it's not concentric due to cheap bearing or poor tolerances, or weak frameThe tolerances in the absolute worst quality cheapo Chinese bearings available are still better than you could notice for a band saw. Even wavy wheels deliver good results as long as the tires have straight crowns.>Did you see the 14" bandsaw report on FWW, that one of the respected brand has the flywheel 1/8" off plane and that they couldn't shimm it ?It wouldn't be the first time FWW has reported a measurement that really doesn't matter. Read Knots regularly and you might think co-planar is critical. It's not. 1/8" is fine. What matters is that the band tracks well.Quality construction is important of course, partly for ease of getting good cut quality but mostly for longevity, ease of use, and capability.Unless you were to buy some bottom of the line machine, you're unlikely to go wrong. Don't sweat this, get any decent machine with features that suit your needs, keep it in tune and get some experience. Worst case, you can turn it around for an even bigger machine in a few years. :-)Pete
Edited 2/8/2009 4:07 pm ET by PeteBradley
I believe what all these folks are trying to tell you is that almost all band saws can make a very fine cut if tuned up to the utmost and have a right blade. The cheaper ones may take a lot of work to tune and may not hold the tune very long. The more expensive ones may all cut the same but vary in portability, quality of fence, power, finish, ease of adjustment, etc. etc. Look at what it takes to get that cut, not the cut itself.
May be this will help me. If you join this thread, just let me know what bandsaw you're using and tell me how much you like yours
Q
I have the MM16. It is definitely in the better class but between it, Agazzani, Laguna, and a few others, I think it is only a matter of personal preference. I think the MM16 could have a better mobile base - is not equipped to handle small blades without some changes, and probably some other small issues but it certainly cuts well. A disclaimer is that I haven't really used it a lot like some of these folks that have posted.
Edited 2/7/2009 1:05 am ET by Tinkerer3
The minimax is very high on my list. That's my problem that I have so many bandsaws on my list, I can't make up my mind. I thought the minimax specification is outstanding, especially the tripple box beam construction. Heavy fly wheels with huge bearings. All the owners say it's built like a tank. It seems to me that the bearing of the flywheel is very important to the blade running true. I care about the mobile base because my shop is very small. I'd like a larger table, and fence with drift adjustment. I'm not sure about the European guide or the ceramic guide, can't not see through the idea of having a blade of steel running in friction with the guide. I thought the bearing guide is better (like Carter guide). I'm surprised that you're not using your saw alot.
Q
Your question really isn't meaningful. Your 8" band saw well tuned with a decent blade could make a cut far better than a poorly tuned Griz 17" or 19".
If you're looking at a larger saw, I think some more important criteria are:
1. Table size (bigger is better)
2. Quality/adjustability of the guide assemblies. Weak/sloppy/soft guides mean poor performance.
3. Quality and quantity of adjustments so the machine can be properly dialed in and stay that way, and you can rapidly change guide bar height and table tilt.
4. Quality of construction, particularly wheels, guide bar, and table trunnions (the latter is especially important if you anticipate working with logs)
5. I like a real boot brake on a band saw, my recollection is some of
Either of the machines you are considering will be far better in use than your 8" machine.
Not sure if you were serious about the tenon in the picture, but it's ready to go, other than perhaps some final fit at the shoulders.
Pete
I know you said Griz.
These guys truly have taken bandsaws to a new level of cut quality. Their goal was to equal a fine table saw. They achieved that goal. It is the combination of their guides and their blade that are the key. The rest of the saw I like allot as well. Enough said
http://www.lagunatools.com/bandsaw.lt14se.aspx#
I visited Laguna web site many times and looked at all of their bandsaws, on paper of course. I still got no idea how good these saws performing compared to a Griz. Heard lots of good thing about Laguna, but if I get a Laguna, it will be a 16HD.
Q
>how good Laguna saws with ceramic guides and resaw king blade perform compared to a Griz.I follow the developments pretty close and will say the above Laguna set up is the best on the market. Every thing else should be compared to it.The Griz will be very good ( if you set it up as well as possible ) but not as good as the Laguna. So I suppose that still does not help you much. If you get to look at an optimally tuned Griz and it is still not as great as you expected then you know where to go from there.The Laguna site has a video of the owner of the company demonstrating his saws. It shows the cut quality.roc
Edited 2/7/2009 6:34 am by roc
Yes I heard you. The Laguna is the best guide in the market. But I couldn't get past the idea of having the blade running in contact with a stationary guide. It's just me, though. Minimax shows a demo video that their saw can cut without the guide, just fine, making me wonder. It must be the crown on the tire to keep the blade on track ???
Q
Hate to say it, but the MM16 is one of those saws whose tires do not have a crown. I don't know why they track so well.
>Minimax shows a demo video<That sounds interesting. Will you provide a link so I may see it please ?By the way the ceramic guides are lubed with teflon now and again by the operator. Just a little. They hardly touch the blade or you may set up with a gap if you would rather. There isn't any significant interface until you turn the work or run into stuff that causes the blade to follow the grain or deflect like when you cut in or out of the work at a shallow angle.What creeps me out is a roller guide that gets stuff jamming between the blade and the roller all the time. Not that it stops the blade but it would be interesting to quantify the power it takes to squash all that saw dust to force it through the rollers and the blade. That seems stupid; the roller caries the junk right in. The cool block style guides and the ceramic scrape the stuff off the blade. If you think about it you may see the advantage. Also there is way more surface area of contact ( support ) with the block style guides. A rectangle if you will. A roller guide is a mere line of contact. and the rear guide is a tiny dot with the blade bowing around it. Where as the rear guide on the ceramic is a tall narrow rectangle encouraging a straight back to the blade. Much better for beam strength.OK I will stop with the commercial already. When a guy is in love he may get a bit verbose.happy saw hunting
rocPS: >couldn't get past the idea of having the blade running in contact with a stationary guide.<A belt sander with that big shoe rubbing on the belt must send you right up a tree. : )
Edited 2/8/2009 2:29 am by roc
If I remember correctly, they will show running the MM16 without the blade guide in the following video:
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=&task=videodirectlink&id=7
As for the cermic guide operation, check out this video. I don't know if it's real or not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDef73yUeBc
Q
Edited 2/14/2009 1:34 am ET by Quang
>cermic guide operation, check out this video. I don't if it's real or not<Hey Thank You for links !Yes the rear guide does that a tiny bit. I think that one in the YouTube vid is a new blade or has a rough spot on the back of the blade. They are hardly feeding the stock and it is sparking way more than mine ever has even feeding mine hard .Mine will do this to a much lesser degree while feeding quickly but feeding at a medium speed there is no significant spark that I can detect. If I get a bit of friction on the table and push then get over feed when friction lessens then I get the tiniest burst of sparks.No problem. This guide is probably bone dry. They recommend a dot of teflon lube.By the way I was not saying buy the Laguna over Agazzani or Mini-max. I originally thought I was talking you up a grade from the Grizzly. The Griz is a nice saw as well but your priority was a really superior cut quality.If you are able to get the Agazzani I say God speed ! If Maloof likes it / uses it that is enough for me. Personally it was out of my price range and I did not have room for as big a saw as you are looking at. The Laguna was and is perfect in every respect FOR MY USE. I almost exclusively resaw on it and then do everything else with hand tools so I wanted a skinny little saw with big resaw capability ( back then 8 or ten inches was the norm on a saw with no riser block ) and a small foot print / easy to move out of the way. I haven't even put a mobile base on it yet.thanks again
roc
And we're back,I watched the first vid secondWhat you saw, as far as I can tell, is a half truth. Though impressive and a darn nice saw !Please note. One never pulls a plank in reverse direction out of the cut while the saw blade is moving. Why ? Because it will easily pull the blade off the wheels and mess up more than your work.OK now we must ask "what is keeping him from pushing the blade off the wheels while he is cutting ?"The answer is he still has the lower guides in position. A wide blade, lots of beam strength, and soft wood (what wood has he switched to ?) and slow feed. So we have some serious guide support working for us it is just hidden bellow the table.Over all an impressive demonstration but lets not say "the guides are not in place ".Don't play poker with this guy
rocPS: perhaps I am just jealous that I can not afford a Mini Max : )
Edited 2/8/2009 2:16 pm by roc
PeteBradley said a lot of great stuff there in a small space ! He cut the cr*p !I would say it may be hard to get a new replacement tire's crown to be off set to align with the other one when and if you ever replace it. But perhaps that is not even that important. I think it would be but I am not sure.Also I was taking for granted that you realized the advantage of a ceramic bearing against a steel mate. This has been the trick bearing for some oil wedge style bearing applications for a while now. It is even sneaking into high tech ball bearing applications which I have not studied and cannot speak to.An oil wedge bearing is like what you have in your car bearings. As the parts slide (rotate) against each other there is a microscopic "wave" (wedge) induced in the lubricant and it is forced between the bearing surfaces ( by a pump in your car but to some degree just by movement ) and the surfaces hydroplane on the lube. It is even possible to do this with contained and compressed air in a fancy grinding machine. (keeps the grit out of the bearing surfaces because the air is always coming out and the grit can't get in )Not a lot of this has to do with bandsaws directly but I am on a role so this is what you get.An example of a sliding ceramic bearing that has been around for ever now and works very well as far as long service is . . . The Porsche automobile engines. Yep. The surfaces the pistons slide against in the engine is aluminum impregnated with ceramic then machined "smooth". Lets say machined to a specific, consistent shape and tolerance and surface quality to mate to the same condition in the pistons. The piston bearing surface (rings) are hard steel. There is oil between the surfaces just like any other auto engine.What makes the ceramic superior is that it is microscopically porous and the oil makes a microscopic pool in each pore and allows the mating steel bearing part to "float"/hydroplane over the ceramic without touching it where the steel to steel has no pools ( ok fewer pools ) and so can more easily scrape the oil off and go metal to metal.That is the theory any way and a properly cared for ceramic cylinder sleeve engine is known for it's superior milage and wear resistance.So you see the ceramic can take and hold lubricant where a steel guide block or a roller can not.So never fear the pores are filled with air or teflon lube and is a good idea. Of course there is the little matter of the sparking. You have me there. The forces have over come the surface area of the back of the blade. The large flat surface supports the rear edge of a narrow blade better than a round rotating bearing that tends to "strum" the blade to one side. Also a sealed bearing cartridge being pushed on the rim from the side could not be more counter to its original intended design. And a curved surface against the back of the blade is even worse. At least with the ceramic material there is not the galling that would occur if the flat rear Laguna style bearing was steel rather than ceramic . . . but that is a whole new dissertation novella.The surface area of the side of the blade is much greater so can take advantage of the properties of the ceramic. One rotates the rear guide a few degrees every once and a long while and they last fine and are easily replaced.Trick stuff eh !rocEdited 2/8/2009 5:45 pm by rocEdited 2/8/2009 5:49 pm by rocEdited 2/8/2009 6:03 pm by roc
Edited 2/8/2009 6:11 pm by roc
My Delta 20" uses steel blocks. Stationary guides have worked great for over 100 years. A lot of the talk about friction, heat, etc. is just that - talk. What is important is that the guide bar is solidly designed and easy to change height. Good adjusters help too since it makes it easier to align the bar so you don't have to adjust guides when you go up and down.Pete
Suit yourself. I suggest you forget the criteria that I suggested and go to a series of stores asking for the band saw with the best quality of cut. Some shops may refuse to answer that question. They'll waste time asking how you intend to use the saw, showing you different features and describing the pros and cons of different designs. Sooner or later though, you'll find a guy who who says "oh, then you'll be wanting this saw here". That's your man.
Good luck.
Pete
As I mentioned before, I got passed the bandsaw feature comparing and anatomy stage. I'm just curious about the result. You're probably right about most stores would not answer my question. So far one store did do a demo cut for me. Problem is Griz has stores not in CA.
Q
> As I mentioned before, I got passed the bandsaw feature comparing and anatomy stage.As I (and Rick, and Sarge) have tried to explain, one doesn't get "past" that stage, that's the stage an effective buyer needs to get to.Pete
In the case of the picture you posted for me... it does not need to be cleaned up because that is a tenon that will fit in a mortice and not be seen. But... if that was a finish cut that would show.. it most definitely needs to be sanded out to smooth.
In the picture after the post to me that you showed the picture of the board re-sawed with an Agganzani and a 1" carbide blade.. again it needs to be cleaned up as it has the typical lines visible left by a 3 tooth per inch blade even though the carbide left a very good cut.
But.. if I get a chance tomorrow I will take a picture of a cut in Quarter Sawn White Oak as I have just re-sawed quite a bit of it to do some quadlinear legs. My BS is a Steel City 18" and about half the price of the Agazzani. I use a Lennox 3/4" bi-metal blade which is about 1/5 the price of a carbide but....
You won't see that much difference in the cut lines left from the Aggazani and the Steel City. And I have a smaller 14" Jet BS which I can produce the same cut surface on with a 3 TPI 1/2 blade. So.. price does not always tell the story of what's best and what isn't. Band-saw's are band-saws... they all have wheels.. they all have tables.. Set up properly and matching the correct blade that is sharp will allow any BS to get the job done as I see it.
Where are you or your parents from in Vietnam?
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 2/7/2009 1:06 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
I don't know where he's from but his profile says he's in San Diego.
He does ask some thought provoking questions!
Could'nt give you a good reason why, but I like him.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
The reason I asked was I spent a year on Quang Tri province and associated the name Quang with VN which made it just a guess? I saw the San Diego on the profile but the U.S. has a very large Vietnamese population from immigration after the Vietnam war. I have two Vietnamese friends locally. One came after just after the fall of Saigon and the other is a son of a family that came just after the fall of Saigon.
I kinda like everybody really until they give me a reason not to like them. That's about as fair as it gets. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a good day Don.. I cut 32 leg components with 45* angled sides (without one boo-boo no less.. surprise-surprise) for quadlinear QSWO legs last night and have much gluing to do today but... the sun is shining in Georgia and it's all good. :>)
Sarge..
"the sun is shining in Georgia and it's all good. :>)" OK! OK! Please don't rub it in!!! ROFL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
60's for the next few days.. it has been in the 40's and 50's for about a week prior. Typical Georgia winter. Cold front for a few days... warm front a few days. The key words here are "a few days" as none of that hide in the igloo to avoid frost-bite for weeks on end. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I was very impressed when they demoed the Agazzani. It was quiet and smooth. The cut was great. The blade was a combo blade with 3 TPI and 4 TPI (or 6 TPI). Yes, pictures would help. I'm in SD, CA.
Q
The Aggazani is an excellent machine, Quang. I had thought about it and the Mini-Max 16" and even had a deposit down. But.. I ran across the Steel City 18" that had just been introduced and got my deposit back as the SC is about half the cost and all I really need. But.. I really like the Aggazani as I have used it on several occasions at WW Shows here in Atlanta. You couldn't go wrong with that machine if you have the extra it takes to get it.
I will get a few pictures latter today as I have to be at my accountants to get 2008 taxes done at noon EST. Keep in mind I am on the other coast in Atlanta so somewhere after noon your time in San Diego.
Have a good day...
Sarge..
I'd like to save money too. My experience with tools buying haven't been good ones. I have bought many starter tools that I ended up selling them all. Well almost, I still have a few to rid off. Saving money is good, but paying a little more can save me from heachade in the long run. That is somehow my situation. That's why I still looking at Griz, SC and the like.
Q
Quang - I bought the B-20 from Jesse at Eagle tools. For me it's been a great BS. And I think you will always be happy to deal with Eagle Tools. Their customer support is excellent. They completly set up the saw before shipping it to you. This way they discover any problems before sending it out. Many of the other sellers make you set up the saw, which sometimes means lots of back and forth with the seller before you can resolve any problems. You can search for threads on Laguna and Minimax where new owners had to struggle for several weeks/months before getting the saw up and running.
Excellent !! Another happy Agi owner. There is some thing about the Agi that I like. We're in the same boat.
Q
And as I promised.. here's some pictures but I took it a step farther. There are pieces of re-saw in the picture and one piece of veneered QSWO applied to a poplar base. I will explain that after the explanation of the 3 re-saws.
I am not going to tell you which is which but.. one piece of stock is re-sawn with my Steel City 18" using a 3/4" Lennox bi-metal blade. Another has been re-sawn on my Jet 14" with a 1/4" 6 tpi blade that stays on that smaller saw just for doing curves. It has a standard carbon blade on it which is not good to re-saw with as it will heat quickly and 6 teeth per inch are just too many for that operation on that 3" wide stock, Not enough gullet space to remove waste. But.. with careful adjustment.. proper tension and a very slow feed rate you can re-saw with that blade but it is certainly not ideal.
The third piece of stock was taken up the street to my neighbor Bill's and he allowed me to set up and use his Mini-max 16" band-saw. I did not re-set his guides but I did re-set his tension to my liking. That saw has a 1" Lennox carbide blade. When I re-saw the blade rarely ever touches a guide or the rear thrust bearing. That is not true cutting curves though as it does touch being force out in sharp turns.
So... look at the pictures and tell me which is the final cut of the $500 BS.. the $1100 BS and the $2400 band-saw using three different type material blades to cut with one being improper for re-saw? IMO.. all need clean-up as they are not final finish quality as we have talked about.
Then look at the leg component on the right. It is QSWO veneered to poplar substrate and I ripped both edges on my Steel City TS last night to 45 degree angles. See how much smoother the over-all cut is? And I did not do it with a high dollar blade with a large amount of teeth. That would have burnished the edges and I don't won't to do that for a glue up. So.. that cut was done with an Amana Euro 20 T ripping blade which many will tell you will leave a rough finish.
Maybe not as smooth but when the TS is set up right.. the stock on that tricky angle on both sides are sandwiched to allow zero slop as the slightest slip ruins a leg.. the 20 T rip blade got the job done admirably and left a perfect cut for glue adherence.
Have fun deciding what saw did what.. I will reveal latter if you wish.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge , when did you carpet your shop? looks good.
Tom.
Got a real deal on terry cloth towels so... I just sewed them together and laid carpet for the refined look. If I come up short a buffing rag I can cut the seams on the carpet and replace it latter when another towel comes along. ">)
Regards...
Sarge..
Hi Sarge,
Looking at this picture , I can't tell which stock belong to which bandsaw. The second stock from the left appears to have smoothest finish. I don't know what's the 4th stock on the right for. However I think I decided on a bandsaw.
Thx
Q
The extreme stock or 4th is a two sided 45 degree rip cut done with a 20 T table-saw ripping blade just to show you a table saw cut to compare to a band-saw cut. As I stated.. in my opionion all band-saw cuts need to be cleaned to some degree.
The smooth cut in the middle was done with my Steel City BS using a bi-metal blade. The 3rd cut is done with the Mini-max with carbide but... the carbide blade needs sharpening. My neighbor builds outdoor furniture to supplement retirement and he will push a blade until it won't cut toast before he sharpens or replaces.
The cut on the left or 1st is done with a 1/4" 14 BS using a blade really not suited for re-saw.
Good luck with your new Bandsaw whatever it is....
Regards...
Sarge..
Do you have your times right?
12:00 noon Atlanta
9:00 morning San Diego
I posted around 10 AM EST and noted I had to be at my accountants around noon EST, Tink. I knew it would take 2-3 hours from that starting point to get out.. get home and shoot a picture and post back which would have been around noon Pacific Coast time which is 3 hour after my starting time. It was posted in haste and could have probably been defined more clearly but I had chores to run before I made my appointment. I stay on the go it seems..
All's well that ends well I suppose as Quang got to view the picture. :> )
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 2/7/2009 11:01 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"I stay on the go, it seems."
As I recall, you are retired or about to retire. You are supposed to slow down a little. Just checking up on ya. Some one has to keep the herd going straight. Ha!
I found the only way to slow down would be to take a full or part time job. I may do just that as there are times I'm buried in the shop and I don't see anyone in public for 3-4 days. I do miss inter-action with people in public on occasion. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 2/8/2009 9:28 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Like so many people I know, they retire and just get busier. Something wrong with you guys. I have actually slowed down quite a bit. Work doesn't bother me. There is an endless amount to do but I'm one who can just lie down beside it and rest. Like now, I was just heading up to my bedroom bath to paint the ceiling. What am I doing. BTW, I will be sailing through your beautiful state in about a week on the way to Florida. SWMBO has some time shares by Orlando.
Drop by on the way down to the Sunshine State... the sun is shining right now before you even get there. I'll demo some "alligator wrestling" for you. But... hurry as I may take a seasonal April-October job with the Gwinnett Braves which is the AAA Atlanta Braves farm club that was in Richmond for years. We'll see.
Sarge..
I respect Sarge and what all he says. He has a lot of experience. So I am not flaming him or getting too uppity but I want to take a bit of a quote from his post :
>Band-saw's are band-saws... they all have wheels.. they all have tables
And say that I looked closely at the design details of a lot of the saws out there a few years ago and found that some saws, a few, well ok Laguna, has beefier wheel axles, bearings, table trunnions, blade tensioning mechanism, way the belt is tensioned, much better motor ( Baldore industrial grade ) etc.
I think these things are important in the short term and in the long term and so should be looked at before you buy. If you can not tell by looking then take my word for it. It is quite obvious to me when I look at machinery where the weak spots are.
One thing you can do is bend down eye level with the table of band saws that you are looking at in person. Make sure the table pivot clamp knobs are tight and then just pull down on the table as if it had a fifty pound plank starting a cut on the infeed side of the table and watch how much the table deflects down ward. Do that on a few saws in the various price ranges and you will start to see what I mean.
An example is the Delta which is beefier verses the Robland and the Jet which are less beefy. And I like Jet ! I fully expected to just buy a Jet bandsaw.
Doesn't matter if you are going to cut curves in some light thin stuff. But if you are resawing or are going to put a riser block on and cut heavy blocks or awkward stuff with a three tpi blade it will.
And those bigger bearing axles mean bigger bearings and longer life.
They are not all the same high price to low price.
roc
PS: I realize you aren't talking 14" saws and going to use a riser but I used it as an example. Sorry if this isn't specific to Griz but if you get to look at a griz up close maybe this will help you judge the saw's design over all.
Edited 2/7/2009 5:53 am by roc
Edited 2/7/2009 6:00 am by roc
Edited 2/7/2009 6:03 am by roc
>Band-saw's are band-saws... they all have wheels.. they all have tables
You probably need to look at the last statement I made about quality of cut which is what the OP is discussing here. You are absolutely correct that a high dollar saw is going to be beefier and usually more well machined than a cheaper saw. All you have to do is compare component to component and that is evident with no if's.. and's or but's.
But.. Quang seems to be focused on quality of cut for whatever reason he has for focusing on that. So.. I will stand by my statement that band-saws are bandsaws.. they all have wheels.. they all have tables and if you compare the cut of an extremely well machined BS with larger, heavier wheels.. larger bearings... thicker casing.. etc. etc.. you won't see a major difference in cut quality between a cheaper made BS that is set up properly using the correct blade.
But yes.. you will see the quality of the components.. machining.. etc. if you compare the saws side to side.. component to component. All you have to do is look and it is obvious and I have always encouraged everyone to do just that. If one can afford the beefier band-saw then by all means drop the cash down.
But.. that is not what Quang has ask.. simply a comparison of cut quality and again.. I stand by what I said and I will post some pictures latter that I think will confirm that to a large degree.
Regards...
Sarge..
Q,
Just an additional snippit of info...
David Charlesworth talks, in his articles and books, about using a "meat & fish" blade to cut dovetails and other joints on the bandsaw. This blade apparently has a wavy-knife profile rather than saw teeth and is used to cut frozen fish and meat. However, Mr C alleges that it makes an extremely smooth and accurate cut that allows one to make joints without further finishing.
I haven't used one but I suspect that if it does produce very smooth cuts as described, it won't be suitable for resawing or any other work needing deep or extensive cuts.
My own experience tells me that there is no single blade that will do everything well, no matter how good the bandsaw, it's set-up or it's guides. But some blades perform an awful lot better than others of the same configuration. Nor is cost or brand always a guide. I have had two blades of the exact same type from the same manufacturer where one is hopeless (drifts, sticks) whilst the other is perfect. I've no idea why, except perhaps that quality-control is lacking during manufacture.
Lataxe
Be sure to read the thread "Band Saw Guide Adjustment" that began January 9, 2009. It has a lot of good information on usability of the Agazzani B-18 versus the MM-16. I agree that both will produce great cuts. I recently bought an Agazzani B-20 from Eagle Tools. I spent two hours working on an MM-16 owned by a local woodworker. Though it produced great cuts, there were usability issues that were not right for me and how I work. These issues are described in the referenced thread. In the end, it came down to usability as both saws are top quality.
The best advice I got in my decision was to buy Laguna, Minimax or Agazzani as Italian-made bandsaws set the standard of excellence and are owned by craftsmen that use them every day for heavy duty work. From there, I searched for the best value in price, features and usability. The Agazzani won out as the best value as I defined it. Jesse at Eagle Tools is a "straight shooter" and patiently answered my endless questions. I consulted numerous Agazzani bandsaw owners who were also very helpful.
It's nice to hear from you, an Agi owner. I met Jesse. He showed me the B-18 and B-20 and his shop. What I like about his operation is he tunes up each saw prior to shipment. He packaged it in a secured "coffin". It was great to hear his stories too. He was telling me that he visited Sam Maloof recently who has 3(or 4) Agi's. I found that most folks would opt for a B-20 after checking out the B-18. Your case also confirmed it. It also seems to me that Agazzani has been around a long time.
Q
Tom,
Is the thread "Band Saw Guide Adjustment " an article in FWW magazine ? Are you a member of FWW (because you know advance information in this topic, I'm curious) ? I start seeing video clips on bandsaw topics by Roland Johnson, are you referring to these video clips ?
Q
It is a thread on FWW Knots. Here is the URL:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/main.asp?qu=agazzani&find=Search&webtag=fw-knots&ctx=search&cl=724992&af=10000&o=relevance&be=0
Thanks, Tom. Indeed there was a long thread on the topic
Q
You're welcome sir and good luck.. if you can afford the Aggazini as you seem to be impressed with it as you really should be... I would lean there personally. But.. with that said the larger BS's are great re-saw machines. When it comes to curve cutting a large 20" has some difficulty accommodating under 1/2" blades in some cases. For instance the Mini-max really needs to be changed over to cool blocks as the Euro bearings they are are just well... large. Mini-max sells the cool block sets separately.
Ask Jesse about this issue as he will tell you up front if you have to adopt to smaller curve cutting blades on that 20" you seem to be leaning toward. But it is a great BS as far as build quality and will do an excellent job of re-saw.
Again.. good luck with your decision...
Sarge..
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