Replies

1. 
   ejwill | May 05, 2003 06:37pm | #1

   Not having read the article, one quick question would be expansion.  If you glue the top (3 biscuits in 4 location) according to the drawing, how then will the top be able to move?  According to the plan, the inside panels (C) could follow the grain, but the frame and panels on the outside will most likely not do that.  Hence, classic cross-grain situation.

   If you are using a veneered plywood top or other similar options, then it is moot point.  However, if the top is solid wood, you could run into some splitting later.

   If the method of attaching the top in the plan is your only option (i.e. you have already dimensioned the panels so dadoes are an option), maybe glue the front and center biscuits only?  Or position the biscuit slots in a such a way that there is a little more play at the back? 

   Just some thoughts.

   Good Luck.

2. 
   ETG | May 05, 2003 06:45pm | #2

   Folks use biscuits for many reason, but the most consistent answer from experienced woodworkers is not strength, but as indexing/locating when 2 or more boards are glued up.  I personally would never consider using biscuits as shown in the drawing.  I agree with Northriverjohn - you need to accomodate wood movement and biscuits are not the answer.

   There have been several articles over the past few years in FWW  showing some excellent methods for attaching tops (tables, sideboards, etc.) - find the one that you are most comfortable using.

1. 
   badoyn | May 05, 2003 07:45pm | #3

   Thanks to you both. My concern over the solid wood top moving caused me to post this note. Your thoughts helped justify my concerns.

   How about where they use biscuits attaching the lower shelf and drawer frames to the dividers, or whereever they are used, for that matter?

   Thanks,

   Michael

1. 
   SCFrankland | May 05, 2003 08:05pm | #4

   With out going over the design to much I would suggest attaching the top with sliding dovetails.  Glue at the front and let the back float. Scott C. Frankland

2. 
   ejwill | May 05, 2003 08:56pm | #7

   I agree with EDGREGG about the general uses of biscuits (indexing, panel glue-up, and joints involving smaller / narrow stock).  As far as this particular project goes, I would avoid biscuits for anything where there is cross grain.  Thus, the dividers (C) could be joined to the top and bottom shelf okay.  But the bottom shelf will have the same problems as the top for its other connections and should be rectified in a similar manner.

   Good Luck.

1. 
   badoyn | May 05, 2003 10:48pm | #8

   Good ideas about the "L" shaped cleat. I like that idea too about anchoring the top front and letting the top expand backward.

   What would be the best way to attach the bottom to the sides?

   Also, I'm using quartersawn white oak if that makes a difference.

   Thanks,

   Michael

1. 
   ejwill | May 05, 2003 11:42pm | #9

   In this particular project, you are attaching a solid panel (bottom shelf) to the stiles and rails of a panel.  Therefore, you will almost certainly have cross-grain.  Just like some of the eearlier suggestions, prior magazine editions have a wealth of options.

   However, in the short term, if you have not committed to final dimensions yet, I would suggest 1) fitting the shelf into a rabbet and only gluing the front half of the panel and 2) leaving some expansion space at the back of the casework (if possible).  You wont need much with quartersawn oak.

   Maybe you can alter your plan for the back of the carcase to account for this.  It looks like the plan calls for the bottom shelf to match up with the bottom edge of the back.  maybe convert that connection to a rabbet in the bottom shelf?  It is hard to guess that just looking at the picture, but I'm sure you can figure a way to hide the gap but allow for the movement.  Again using quartersawn oak is really helping you here.

   Good Luck.

3. 
   RW | May 05, 2003 08:09pm | #5

   The little figure 8's work ok. The front reveal is where you want to keep things static. Anchor that solidly; to anchor near the rear so your top doesn't lift, another option is to slot a thin dado near the top rear of your side panels and make an L shaped cleat. The cleat anchors to the top, engages the slot, and when things shift, it's free to slide wherever it likes.

   "The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

1. 
   ETG | May 05, 2003 08:37pm | #6

   I agree with you RW - good plan!

4. 
   HowardAcheson | May 06, 2003 12:03am | #10

   Are the top and bottom solid wood or plywood? If solid, I don't know how they expect the thing to allow for expansion and contraction.

5. 
   chairmake1 | May 06, 2003 04:40am | #11

   O.K. - you have received several good ideas and suggestions on this matter- so I'll add my 2 cents--

   As far as the location of the top - align the rear of the top with the back of the carcase, I always do this with case goods. There are several partions and also the end panels that make good ancoring positions for the solid wood top. Be there no dought that this top will move several times during the year, even quartersawn material.

   I would make about nine cabinetmakers clips, this is what the "L" brackets are called, but I make mine with a 3/8" tounge - 3/8" down from the top of the clip and 3/8" long. This can be made with just one bit in the router table or only one setup on the table saw, this saves time and speeds up the process as time is money in the shop. I drill a 1/4" thru hole in the body of the clip and use a #10 x 1 1/4" L FHWS for the connection to the underside of the top.

   Chuck up a 3/8" router bit and set the depth for 9/16" and rout a groove on all of the interrior panels 3/8" down from the top of the

   partions and the end frames.

   With this hardy clip and plenty of area for the clip to move with the top you will never have a problem with seasonal movement and the top will not ever be in a bind, which will cause the top to split in the middle years dowm the road.

   Sorry for the rambling reply-

   I hope this helps you out-

   Robert

1. 
   badoyn | May 06, 2003 04:50am | #12

   No rambling at all. All of these are great suggestions. I'm more than willing to hear them all so as to avoid any mishaps in the future.

   What would be your suggestion for the bottom panel?

   Thanks again and to all suggestions.

   Michael

1. 
   chairmake1 | May 07, 2003 09:05am | #15

   I can't tell what the bottom is or what type of material it's made up from- Let me know these answers and I'll reply.

   Robert

1. 
   badoyn | May 07, 2003 05:19pm | #16

   The bottom is made of quartersawn white oak.

   Michael

1. 
   chairmake1 | May 07, 2003 06:03pm | #17

   I would mosy likely change that to sheet stock for a couple of reasons- a piece of oak verneer sheet stock would be more stable and less expensive. Quartersawn white oak is expensive and finding stock with acceptable grain and figure is getting harder to find so I would save what stock I had for the more important applications. The bottom of anything would not be a prudent use of this kind of stock - this is just my opinion. Using the sheet stock would allow you to either use biskets and glue to attach or make shallow, like 1/4", dados in all of the attaching panels and glue this bottom in complete.

   Robert

2. 
   badoyn | May 07, 2003 06:58pm | #18

   I already have the bottom glued up and ready to go. I'd rather not use sheet stock as I want to work with solid woods on this one.

   Michael

6. 
   greenebelly | May 06, 2003 05:08am | #13

          I would use sliding dovetail jointery to assemble your case to your top. No HARDWARE to look at and self-squareing(?) can't spell.....or a dado. Definatly don't biscuit it to the top.

1. 
   badoyn | May 06, 2003 05:40pm | #14

   I'm still a novice and have never cut a sliding mortise, although I like the prospect of trying that.

   Michael