I made a box out of aromatic cedar for my wife to keep her yarn and knitting needles in. I did not finish the wood which I believe is traditional for cedar chests etc. Recently my wife opened the box and all of her needles were covered with a sticky goo and anything plastic (labels on yarn etc.) was melting. What gives? Should I put a finish on it and if so what kind, and would that defeat the purpose of the cedar keeping moths away?
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Replies
Aromatic cedar, Juniperus Virginiana, is sold air dry. If it has been kiln dried, this kills the aroma by driving off those aromatic gasses, while crystalizing those resins. If you finish the inside, that may block it also.
This is Brent's wife and I still need some kind of solution to the problem - do you think I should just keep my wool and knitting needles somewhere else or what? What is the point of having a fancy cedar box if all it does is goo up your fine handknits? By the way I heard that moths don't actually eat wool also - they eat stuff stuck in the wool like bits of food and dead skin and stuff.Thanks
If you get a plastic box like, tupperware that will just fit the cedar box (or even cut one to fit), you can have your cake and eat it, too. The plastic will keep the cedar oil off your stuff, and the cedar will keep the moths away and look nice.The box doesn't need a lid, as the cedar on has one.Id you finish the interior with shellac, the oil won't bleed out anymore, but the nmoth repellent cedar odor will also disappear.A tin liner would also work.
I know the moths don't actually eat the wool. I think what happens, is that they lay their eggs on it, and the little larva, caterpillars will eat it. It has been a long time since I read it, but I don't think that the cedar actually does anything to prevent it if you put a dirty garment away for the season with eggs in it. The best thing is to always store them for the off season clean.As for the cedar, I think shellac is probably the best means for sealing the wood, while keeping the look.Maybe you can leave some of the cedar that doesn't contact anything, like under the lid to keep the aroma.I think heat will cause the resin to flow more readily, so try to keep it away from heat sources while it is loaded
My understanding is that it is silverfish that do most of the damage usually blamed on moths.
Hi, Brent's wife. There has to be a solution to this! I just wish I knew what it was. Obviously, Lane didn't make a zillion cedar chests that all sold, and still re-sell well, by using cedar that leaks goo. Hang in there, someone will know.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie:We have old cedar chests that have held clothes for four or five generations without problems. I suspect that Brent just got some wood that was exceptionally resinous, or maybe was not fully dry. If they seal it, the cedar won't deter moths, so I really think that for this particular case, a liner of some kind is the way to go.Joe
Joe
I have a cedar lined teak chest that I built at about the same time I built a cedar walkin (aromatic cedar). Both are unfinished on the cedar side. I built them about 15 years ago, and have had no resin coming to the surface of the wood. I purchased top of the line aromatic cedar at the time...maybe there are different levels of lumber quality that are related to the resin content? I do not really know. JL
Good question. I don't know either. There is a lot of cedar sold to line closets and the like-- and the stuff would not enjoy the good reputation that it does if it usually leaked goo on people's stuff. However, the material they have seems to be a wooden oil field.
Nice image Joe. I wonder if the goo will fuel a vehicle? Nah, I guess not. JL
I think it is obvious that this batch of wood wasn't cured sufficiently. Wipe out all the goo with some naphtha. Then, along the lines of the plastic box that will exactly fit this, make a liner of the cedar veneer sold to make cedar closets. Eventually all the goo will come out of the box and the "faux" cedar liner could be removed.Gretchen
The cedar I got was from a very reputable dealer that I've been going to for several years called Kettle Moraine Hardwoods, north of Milwaukee. Judging from past experience I think that it I can safely assume that it is a good quality grade of cedar. They advertise that all of their wood is kiln dried under controlled conditions but it sounds like this method is not tipically used for aromatic cedar. What we are talking about doing is taking the box to my shop and letting it sit open for several months and drying out some more. Do you think this will stop the leaking?
My take on this malady would be to seek out some sort of plastic grate that could be installed in the chest to keep its contents out of contact with the wood/goo. Perhaps scraping the excess when convenient. I would definitely not apply chemicals to remove it. Let it run its course, it will go away eventually.
Perhaps as one suggested, the OP purchased some highly resinous cedar, after all, as we all know, wood does its own thing no matter what we do.
Just my 2¢,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
This isn't commonly discussed, but one of the reasons that softwoods are kiln dried is to harden the resins in the wood to prevent problems with pitch leakage. I don't know if aromatic cedar is normally kiln dried. I do know from experience that even kiln dried pine will weep resins if the pitch pockets are large. I also know from experience that the leakage can go on for years, reoccuring anytime the temperature gets a bit warmer than usual.
Shellac will prevent extractives, which aren't the same as pitch, from coming through a finish, and might stop very minor pitch leakage, but it won't solve the problem here.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Brent
I do not dispute that your supplier is a reputable company, but you do have a sticky situation to deal with. :-) Sorry, I could not resist.
I never have encountered this problem so I do not know what to say. I have run into pockets of resin in fir and pine, but they were in situations where this was not a problem. Your situation is different because it damages the clothing in the box. I would suggest leaving it in a warm area and letting it "bleed out"...I am only speculating...so I guess if your shop is a warm environment, it is a good idea that you have. Good luck. JL
Edited 3/27/2007 9:33 pm ET by jeanlou
Cedar has a lot of gooy oil in it. I had a "dry" cedar stump in my garage for my wife to carve. She never got around to it. After about three years, I picked it up and there was a SUBSTANTIAL pool of partially dry cedar oil underneath.
Brent,
The aromatics in red cedar can soften certain plastics. But you already know that. Some lacquer finishes will eventually soften when applied over red cedar as well.
Don't worry about those moths, its a misconception that they eat wool; they only eat holes!
Ray
So, if moths don't eat wool, why are cedar chests made of cedar? Is it mainly just to make your woolens smell nice?
Oh wait... I get it. They eat holes. Sorry, I'm a little slow in the morning.
Odd how we're all different. I do my best thinking in the morning, and am quite sure the goo actually comes from the moths.
Ba-da-bing!
You're a good sport.
Ray
ba-da-bing?
What does that mean Ray? Are you a second cousin to Tony Soprano as well as a woodworker, granite eater and a language twister? JL
Once I made drawer sides out of cedar. They intermittently leak resin that cements the drawers in. Do not do that.
jean,
That was the drummer in the band, coming down on my punchline.
That was no lady, that was my wife. ba-da-bing.
Ray
Ray
So then he was the second cousin to Tony Soprano. JL
Hey, Brent,
I'm wondering how big the box is, and whether the cedar is 'sweating' pitch, or there seems to be a pool, indicating draining of a pitch pocket. If the latter, the judicious use of a small drill hole (before Ray's moth eats the hole) would expedite the draining if you can locate the source. If the wood is sweating evenly, I would consider putting a small wattage incandescent electric light in the box to keep the baby moths warm and to expedite the sweating.
"Give a man a silverfish, it eats his socks that day; teach a man to silverfish ...
In some places there are small pools, but in general the surface is sparkly, like sap (or something) is leaking out evenly and then crystalizing. The needles were all evenly coated with something that made them sticky all over. It wasn't as if pitch just leaked on parts of the needles in certain areas. Its more of an overall phenomenon. The size of the box is roughly an 18" cube. There is another, smaller box inside that is removable to take projects with you and a separate compartment for needles. Its a nicely crafted object (at least in my eyes) and I'm hesitant to line it with plastic or tin or more cedar lining because I think it will ruin the character of the box.
What you are describing is commonly seen in white pine boards that are especially rich in pitch. In pine, the wood is heavier and darker than normal and a joy to work with-fragrant and easy to plane.
The down side is the wood will leak both liquid pitch and will also form tiny amber beads on the wood's surface especially in hot weather. Apparently with the cedar, the oils are also evaporating and then condensing on the contents of the box. I'm sorry that I can't offer any simple solution, a pine chest I made almost twenty years ago still has tiny amber beads form on its lid each summer.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Hi Brent,
I have seen that very thing . I bought some aromatic cedar (boxed) for closet or drawer lining. When I unpacked it I found it had a kind of a white crystalline film on one side( the material was smooth on one side, rough sawn on the other) but can't remember which had the film. In my case I was able to wipe it down with a dry cloth and it hasn't returned.
Paul
Looking around on the web (I had planned to stock up on few boards of aromatic cedar) it appears as if it's common to air-dry the cedar.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Aromatic_cedar_for_closet_lining.html
states not going above 80 degrees to dry the cedar as it will kill the aroma. Hoadley, Understanding Wood, p 19, indicates that it takes about 175 degrees to set the resin and to prevent bleed out. He also states that scraping or sanding can remove the little drops.
Were the box mine, I would leave it open until the resin droplets harden--probably putting it where air circulation is good. Once the beads are hard, use a cabinet scraper to remove them--try not to open up new wood surface, and finally lightly sand with a fairly high grit paper to burnish and seal the surface. Before following my own advice, I would try the procedure on a piece of scrap from the project. I would probably try to find a piece of scrap that is sweating, and see what effect comes from a little quality time in a warm oven, too.
Good luck. Please give us all feedback on the procedures and outcomes, any lessons learned.
Edited 4/2/2007 11:20 pm ET by BobMc
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