I am going to buy a welder. Has to be wire fed. I can’t use a stick.
I want to make several large selves with angle irons in my garage, iron fence in the front, stronger stands for my wwing machines, for examples.
What amp rating is good for up to 3/16 angle irons welding?
Is 70 amp 115 volt enough? I can also get a 230 volt 120 amp one? I can get good prices for either. Is there a strong reason to get the bigger one?
Replies
Mine is 80 amps wire feed and I can burn holes in 3/16 with it. Can't seem to weld much of anything with it, but I can burn holes in stuff pretty good.
Wood -
I have the little Lincoln 110v wire feed which serves almost every purpose I've had for welding since I got it. I do have a Lincoln 'buzz box' 220v machine but rarely use it anymore. The convenience of being able to plug the little wire feed in (almost) anywhere I need it mades up for the lower amperage. If I have heavier stuff to weld I just make multiple passes. So far nothing I've made has come apart, anyway. You just have to make sure the circuit you plug it into has enough capacity to handle it. So far I haven't set the house on fire (grin).
Having said that, if you have the budget for the bigger 22o machine, I'd have to admit that it would be nice at times to have the extra muscle.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
The 115 volt welders are basically toys for welding sheet metal sporadically. They have low penetration and low duty cycles. Unless there is some physical disability, anyone can use a stick welder. My little sister was welding up her horse trailer when she was 18. Here are the 3 secrets:
1. Get a book on general welding and read the chapters on AC stick welding, so you know what kind and size of electrodes to use, and what range of amperage.
2. Buy a helmet with the automatic on/off lens. Mine is from FOCUS and has worked fine for the last 15 or 20 yrs. KEDMAN also makes a good product.
3. Start with iron powder electrodes like E7013. Not a whole lot of penetration but sufficient for your purposes, and the easiest of the electrodes to use. When you get good with those, you can start doing bumper hitches and the like with high penetration electrodes like E6011.
When it comes to equipment, I've always been satisfied with MILLER. The first electric welder I bought was a Miller 220v 250 amp AC for $100 in 1962 0r 1963. It did everything I wanted for 20+ yrs until I upgraded to an AC/DC stick + heliarc unit in 1985 for $1600.
I have an 80 watt century that purports to weld up to 1/8" steel. I've welded angle irons to 1/4 steel plates twice to replace the baffle plate for our fireplace insert (factory = $150). It welds a few inches, then the breaker trips and I do something else for a while. When I come back, I get a few more inches and ultimately get a reinforced plate welded up and save about $125.
If you're going to make your living welding frames for sale, by all means get a powerful wire feed welder with a coil gun. Otherwise, a lesser welder will get the job done, just slower.
I've done limited welding but wanted to let you know that perforated angle iron is available, and quite useful for bolting together shelving. You'd just need to be able to cut and clean the stock.
I have to agree with Jackplane...get perforated angle stock for shelves and have the other stuff welded by a welder. For what a small mini-mig costs it's not really justified. I would suggest you take a welding course to explore your options further. A better solution would be a oxy-acetylene set. It takes some learning but for light stuff like that it's really handy. This set up is more versatile as you can heat and bend metal, silver braze, free rusted bolts and cut metal. You can cut the stuff you want with a jig-saw or reciprocating saw. 3/16" is cake. By far easier to make frineds with a local welder for the odd welding job and then you will know it will hold together. I have one of those mini-migs and oxy-acetylene torches and I use the torch far more often. I also spent a number of years as a metal-smith and can say knowing how to work metal is a great plus in the woodshop.
I've owned a SP-100 for over 10 years and weld 3/16 steel easy. 1/4 " with 2 passes looks good too.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986
Nicobie
You aren't telling me anything I don't know. My point to woodenfish is to focus on woodworking and leave the welding to experts until he knows more about it to make an informed choice. There's actually forums that deal only with welding but I still think he should take a course and or look at some basic foundation books on the subject. i certainly wouldn't go to a welding forum and ask what kind of table saw to buy.
Go gas, it's a blast.
A nice mix of C2H2 in an enclosed space (a balloon is great) and a bit of ignition, yeehaa! Wake up the neighborhood! It's darn near perfect for the Fourth of July. (It's good for all the other reasons Rick mentioned, too)
Be certain, especially, IMOO, if you go for gas to take a welding course. Acetylene is interesting stuff, and we don't want to be reading about you.
Personally I would by a stick arc welder. It would be 23o volt with at least 145amp rating. The little wire welders are ok but it's like any tool, once you have it the world of that tool opens up. You will get home one day and want something made of steel. Perhaps something heavy duty. You will turn on your weeny wire feeder and barely scratch the surface. If a little is good more must be better. Unless you are going to buy a MIG welder then I would stay away from the small wire feeders
My 2 cents
Derek
My "weeny" 110 wire feed serves at least 90% of my welding needs. I don't do trailer hitches or truck frames. I wouldn't even if I had a gas drive MIG setup or the biggest stick welder on the market. I'm not a certified welder - that kind of work is best left to people who are.
I advised the original poster to go with the "weeny" 110 wire feed because they're 1)very affordable, 2)will do the kind of welding he described with adequate dispatch and 3)they're highly portable for convenience.
Now .... if he intends on getting a certification and plans on doing structural welding, your point is well taken .... get a "real" welder. In the mean time, I've got money left over for my metal lathe and a few other things. (grin)
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
If you go to any country auctions(at least around here) every farmer has a stick welder and they go for 150-200 bucks. That is pretty cheap. It's like buying a table saw. Are you going to buy a $150 delta tabletop mode? Maybe, because you only want to cut a few 1x4's. But then you see something else you want to make and it is from some hard maple. Well wouldn't it have been nicer to buy that Unisaw in the first place.
Derek
The thing that has NOT been mentioned here is the one big advantage that wire feed welders have over stick machines. They do not leave the weld covered with slag. that allows you to build up with multiple passes much more easily than you could have done with a stick welder. This multiple pass approach allows them to weld heavier metals than they otherwise would be capable of. because they are ideal for welding thinner metals (that would be QUITE a challenge with a stick welder) they have a more versatile range for the typical home shop user. I worked as maintenance supervisor in a mobile home factory (in my misspent youth) and we had a tractor that we used to move trailers with. It had quite a lot of weight on a heavy steel bracket welded to the front of it as counterbalance for the weights on the power hitch at the rear. The weights were continually breaking the brackets loose. I was taking it back to the welding shop at least every other day. I got pretty tired of that and despite my pleas and my PLEASE our college educated welders would not apply enough metal to the joints to give them adequate strength. I took it back there after hours one day when all our "certified" welders were gone home. I put some damn wire on that thing!! When I was done I had built up welds at least 3/4" thick ... big gobby looking ugly stuff. That was the last time that tractor had to go to the welding shop while I worked there (another year or two). It would have been a days work to do that job with a stick welder (which we had available) but the wire feed allowed me to layer pass after pass with just enough time for cooling between. I did it in less than two hours. I can't even imagine how many hours that saved me as each trip I spent at least fifteen minutes trying to explain the problem and begging one of our welders to fix it so that it would last, plus another ten minutes driving the thing back there, and lots of time trying to calm the foreman who needed it to move his trailers too.
clay,
wire feeders will leave a slag behind unless they are hooked up with a gas bottle ( argon or other inert shielding gas ), it is not a thick crust but should be cleaned before a second pass ( quick wire brushing ).
I cant believe that no one has suggested a low end dc tig unit, they are very versitle, can also run a stick for heaver stuff, leave a much mor attractive bead and are very controllable. I saw a very small miller unit with flexable power input for abou 600.00. a good thing about these tig units is duty cycle, it is often higher than comprable wire feeders and the consumables can be had in smaller quanitys so that you are assured you are using the proper rod etc for the application at hand.
welding and painting have one thing in common, it is all in the prep work, proper pre heating and post heating as well as cleaning will go a long way to insuring a strong weld.
james
The original poster doesn't know how to weld. Just about anyone can make the pieces stick with a gas MIG. The way to learn TIG is to learn how to oxy-acetylene weld first. As a cost factor gas welding would be pretty cheap to get into. You can get a torch set from $79 to $150...even cheaper used. Full size tank rental is about $100 in my area for full size tanks. You can also turn a stick welding machine into a TIG by adding a TIG torch and hose with special splitter, gas regulator and tank. The nice thing about TIG is one gas works for all metal unlike MIG. I personally think TIG is one of the best welders but each has its plusses and minuses. With a few hours of lessons I think gas would be the best and most flexible system for him to go. Still think he should just bring it to the local welder for the few things he wants welded!!!!!!!!!!!!
if you are just starting to learn to weld, i'd say go with a mig welder. they are the easiest to learn because all you have to do is pull the trigger and make little c's with the tip. however, migs don't like dirt so you have to clean the surfacesto get a good ground and make a good bead. a good size 220 volt mig welder can weld up to about 1/4 inch thick. with a stick welder, you can basically blast through the rust and other crap on the stock. the welds are stonger than a mig, but don't look as nice. a little more coordination is needed with a stick welder than with a mig because you need to consistently keep the tip about 3/16 inch above the stock while welding. a tig welder is probably the most versatile, because you can weld fairly thick stock, and well as very thin stock. i've heard stories of people cutting soda cans in half and welding them back together. however, the surfaces need to be immaculate to avoid contamination. you also need to be able to use both hands and a foot at the same time to lay down a good bead. you control the tip in one hand, a filler rod in the other, and control a foot pedal on top of that. a good tig bead is fairly stong, and looks real nice.
if your looking to get into welding and you've decided which type to get, you just need to ask which color you want: red(lincoln) or blue(miller)- they're about the same
-harp
Harpa,
the idea is to push the bead not make little "c's", that is bad form unless making a wide joint or fill.
An exercize i do with my help is to have them tig two razor blades together and have that weld be strong ( with filler, no fusion welding allowed in that drill, although for sheet stock that is good also).
Re beer cans, i can only get one back together if i did not drink it, after two beers take the tig away, i will burn through anything. that is an indication of the ammount of " feel " that you need in fine welding.
not trying to get anyone's goad
james
rick,
I agree that before any welding is to be done by the original poster he should at minimum take a short class to get firmiliar with boxes, technique etc..
tig came easy to me because i started with gas welding and i often forget that when i am giving a " how to " to the help, some people are not that cooridinated. However i can say that tig welds are strong and if you suspect a porus ( sp ) weld or have a problem going over it is easy.
for those of you who know nothing of tig it will seem very slowwwwwwwwww, no sutch thing as just throwing down a bead and it must be in a controlled enviroment.
I know just about anyone can blast two peices of metal together with mig but making them stay together is another story, IMHO if you take the time to learn to run a tig it will be far more usefull than a mig welder, people tend to outgrow cheap migs fast.
regards
james
Why don't we just nickel and dime this post to death. Do you guys take classes when you want to learn a new technique? Frick, you would be in classes every day of your life not doing anything. Why not just by a welder that works and start to weld. THe best way to learn is to do it.
Derek
Some guys can get it from a book. Some guys need classes. Sounds to me like a guy who posts a basic question about welders on a wood forum probably needs a class. You can tell he's trying to keep it low budget but doesn't have enough experience to make an informed decision. Having experience as a metal smith and having used all the basic types of welding I still say oxy-acetylene would be the way to go. An couple of hours of training by a knowledgable person would be well worth the cost.
He should strongly consider taking a class because the first two words in any shop should be Safety First. An experienced instructor should provide a better foundation for choosing and using the tool correctly.
What we do is inherantly risky. Why spoil the enjoyment by making a hasty decision about the acquisition and use of a new tool.
The "College of Hard Knocks" might be a memorable way to get an education, but it's a school that'll kick you out just as fast as it lets you in. I would prefer "experience" to teach me how to be a better craftsman, and not just how to avoid fatal errors.
tony b.
I reckon that is true today ... though at the time when I was working in the mobile home factory all wire feed welders were MIG units hooked up to gas bottles. I expect that the low end units that are being considered here would be the coated wire type but even so the slag clearing problem is far easier than with stick welding units. It is quite a chore to get all of the slag from a stick welder chipped off ... pipefitters sometimes miss some and they are, as a rule, pretty high end welders. Of course such chipping can be minimized with a properly sized rod for the job at hand but that is something that is often difficult for a handyman to acheive. Making multiple passes is quick and easy and cheap.
Edited 10/8/2004 10:30 pm ET by Clay
Clay,
just thought i would mention the slag from bottom of the line mig welders, they come with flux core wire. I would hate someone to bring home a bargin basement mig and start running mutiple passes on something important thinking things are all good.
Again, anyone who wants to weld should at least read a book about welding before trying to do anything functional.
regards
james
It all comes down to self imposed hobby limitation. I know if I get a welder I'll need a right angle grinder, shear and then probably some other cool stuff like a metal cutting band saw. Then of course it is a whole lot cooler to weld on an anvil with a hammer. That requires the bellows, brick forge, coal pile, Hardies, swage block, files and assorted punches. Then of course you need a building to put it all in
Getting divorced is such a drag... Where is my pop riveter?
Frank
The wire is hollow with flux inside - called flux core. Great for an outdoor environment where wind could blow away a gas atmosphere. Use a pneumatic needle gun and you can de-slag 2 feet of stick or flux-core in seconds. Kinda like shot-peening.Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
Don; I have never seen one of those ... sounds great ... what do they cost? I might need one.
From Grainger, $155. They have several models available and, no doubt, they could be bought cheaper elsewhere.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1613545189&ccitem=
They are also great for removing paint from metal - as long as you don't mind if the surface gets textured - and for removing heavy rust, as well as welding slag and slag from arc-air operations. I worked for a major railroad rebuilding and repairing freight cars for a number of years and this tool is indispensible for cleaning up an area to weld. They do draw a lot of air but, like I said earlier, it just takes a few seconds to scale a couple of feet of weld, depending on the tenacity of the slag. I used a lot of 3/16" E7016 and that cleaned up nicely.Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
ive had a few 120v wire feeds and have used some bigger 220v wire feeds.
My current setup is the Hobart 140, its able to double pass 5/16ths plate. and go down to 24ga. Comes with a gas regulator, but its able to do flux cored as well as gas shielded.
A flux cored setup the easy way to go, no bottles. The wire is more expensive but no shielding gases.
Sheilding gas gives you better beads, or better penetration, spatter control or in some cases its required (stainless or aluminum)
Flux Core can be used outside but its a bit messy due to the flux, so youll have to chip and tap and rub off the slag.
ON the subject of size, basically its the size of the wire and the output of the welder. Each welder you buy will list the largest size of steel you can weld with different wires. Ive seen 120v models be able to handle the same size metals as many homeshop 220 welders. 120 are the most portable while the 220v are fairly stationary.
If i were going with a 220v welder id go for the higher priced rigs ranging from $1500+ like the Hobart Ironman or a Miller or an ESAB. But those welders are industrial strength. Many of the homeshop 120/220v weld the same sized materials if you buy the quality units. Ive seen those $100 welders and ive thought they make a better boat anchor then a welder due to the duty cycle and the cheap coils.
FWIW i think i spend about $450 on my hobart 140 a few months ago when i replaced my stolen hobart 135. The lincoln mig welders you find at Lowes or HD are ok welders, they dont come with regulators for gas, and can only weld up to 3/16th last i checked But most times thats plenty, and if you need gas later on you can buy a regulator.
Wooden,
I bought a Century 120 volt wirefeed and liked it but found it a bit light. I had an opportunity to trade up to a Century 240 volt (130 amp as I recall, not sure), and was much more please with it. I used it to build a boat trailer for a 3,000 lb sail boat and also a steel bed for a fire truck that is still fighting offroad fires quite successfully. I loved it, and it now belongs to my son as circumstances have forced me to concentrate on my first love, woodworking. Now, if and when then come up with a wood-welder....
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