Here is a story of one of the last furniture mfgs in VA. I’m from that area and remember the numbers and its sad. It’s hard to compete with china. They will stop mfg furniture and only importing and reselling. Sad the name was well know. The walmart mentality marches on. I guess I should have posted in the cafe, so moderators if so, move it.
http://www.roanoke.com/business/wb/xp-155127
Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 3/19/2008 10:03 am by bones
Replies
The same scenario in North Carolina, Bones. Where there were once a large parking lot full of cars... there are now a large parking lot full of Conex Containers from over there. A few cars sprinkle the lot as someone has to un-load the containers to ready for shipment to the retailers. At least that is the case with the manufacturers still open and doing business as most of the smaller fish just had to shut down.
But.. you saw it coming years ago when the door's opened for import and the door's closed locally as in can't compete with labor cost.
Sad... yes. but un-fortunately reality I'm afraid....
Sarge...
Plus ca change; plus ca mem chose! Before NC there was Michigan.
We have an Ethan Allen factory close by and they aren't doing all that great either.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Same with many industries including textiles and Steel. My FIL worked well over 20 years with Bethlehem.. He draw's around $14 a month retirement from them after they had to shut down. Doesn't get any better than that.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge $14 or $1400?
James
That would be around $14.00 and some odd cents with no insurance, etc. I will ask him again when he comes over but they basically didn't retire... the plants closed down basically bankrupt. The guys that worked at the steel mills basically ended up with nothing to speak of..
They just moved down to Georgia from Pa. where my wife is from. Her brother has been down quite a while also and is a shop foreman in the machine shop at Delta Air Lines. She left for Atlanta just after HS years ago.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge: Thanks for the info.
James
You're quite welcome, James...
Regards...
Sarge..
From parking lots full of cars to lots full of containers perfectly describes where I work. Six years ago we were 80 people in the shop, today we are three, finishing up some final orders. everything is now being made in Vietnam and thailand, mostly out of low quality veneers and finger jointed rubberwood. The worst kick in the pants was when the boss asked us to build samples of modified versions of our units, so that they could be sent to Asia to be copied, mass produced and sent back here. the modifications were so that the would be able to fit another row of boxes in a shipping container.
Though I am thankful that I still have a job when so many of my friends have lost theirs, being the guy unloading containers of Asian copies of what I used to make is not what I want to be doing.
-pjw
It's obviously not just a problem here in the United States, PJ... as I see you are in Montreal in the great province of Quebec. I rode through North Carolina about a year ago just to see if the old businesses were still standing. Some were still doing business as we discussed and some were just closed and abandoned at that time.
And indeed it is sad as I see it... it's taking away more than jobs. It's taking away "pride" in the same stroke.
Regards...
Sarge..
It happens in this country also and I will never understand why it is not stopped. Common sense that domestic produce although more expensive result in that same money expended continuing to circulate within the country and being repeatedly taxed. Funds removed from domestic control are lost.
Totalitarian states restrict the availability of items to domestic products and we should favour home grown items with tax incentives at the point and time of production. Purchases from abroad would not enjoy that advantage and might be limited to those items which could not for legal reasons be home produced which would allow import of patent protected inovation from around the world. Scotch whisky for instance.
I'm afraid you can't stop it. If the gov't gets involved it will only get worse. We are the consumers. We vote with our pocketbooks so to speak. I'm agraid that dollars will chase the cheaper markets i.e. china. I remember when textiles started leaving VA and NC and the complaints from the workers, but the number of walmarts kept growing and growing and growing. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
As you say voting with your pocketbook is the only way.
Personally I buy what I can that is USA made. And that includes vehicles. I know that even the traditional Ford/Chevy, etc, lineup includes vehicles made overseas, and all vehicles have some non USA made parts but I stick with the vehicles that I know are made here. I have many coworkers that drive KIA's and Hyundai, and many other foreign brands, but I would not feel right putting down a big hunk of money for a vehicle made in a country, such as Korea, north or south, that doesn't seem to like the USA that much.
I know there are many good Japanese cars, as well as many good European cars such as BMW, Jaguar, Volvo, and more. But as nice as some of them are I will buy the brands made here in the USA. If you live in a country other than the USA it seems logical to buy the vehicle made in the country of your residence.
We may not be able to save a US furniture factory, but the principle is the same in everything we buy. We need to by USA products if available and do what we can to keep the jobs here.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
You realize that many "foreign" cars have more US content (both parts and labor) than many "American" cars, right?
-Steve
Not to hi-jack this thread, but...how are most of you going to spend the "economic stimulus check" coming from good ole George? As most are likely to do, are you going to spend it on an "optional" item or perhaps pay off some bills? I ask fiends and neighbors the same and remind them to buy American, not just spend on trendy foreign electronics (that they may not need anyway). To buy American, that is a tough one to begin with, not to think that you could buy any electronics that are manufactured overseas or clothing.
So, I would assume that some might have the idea that there might be a new Lie Neilson or a nice locally grown, cut and prepped stack of lumber?
What are you getting?
Donkey
"What are you getting?"
the shaft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
My Fed income tax.. state income tax have already gone into escrow. The Fed return will also go there. My home is paid off so... there's land taxes.. home insurance.. and all automobile insurance premiums sitting drawing interest until time to tap out a check for each.
Exciting isn't it.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
I work for a major U.S.A. corporation. Been there 23+ years. Thousands have been laid off, or fired to cut costs. My retirement plan has been cut 3 or 4 times in the past 9 years. Our benefits plans have been cut to bare bones. I've stopped using them because they aren't worth the money. Our company CEO's have received hundreds of millions in bonuses as reward for cutting costs. (on the backs of workers) So when it came time to buy a new truck, I bought a Toyota. I have told myself in the past that I wouldn't buy a vehicle from over seas. This time it was a little more personal. The U.S.. trucks I was interested in had brands of U.S. companies, but were built in Mexico, and Canada. So the CEO got his, but the U.S. worker got the shaft. The Toyota was built in the U.S..A, and the CEO in Japan got his share. I thought I wanted the U.S. blue collar worker getting the $$ instead of the U.S. CEO.
Fed Rebate.... Between the pain at the pump, and continued pinching by my employer, I'll have to use the $$ to pay some bills. Oh, and my oldest of 2 children go to collage this fall... No imported big screen TV's for me this year.
Shop Closing.. I too am in Ethan Allen Country. Tough to watch. Sorry to those most effected. Though we are all effected to some degree.
Well spoken GR... especially the part about the CEO's... I was laid off in October after 10 years service to a small company after I sold my small company in 1998. First time in 27 years that sales have not risen. Not a large corporation, just a large-small company with about $50 million in yearly sales of American Muscle Car Restoration Parts. I only worked 4 days a week by choice.. They ask me to work 5 as they were going to lay off several younger gentle-men with kids.
I told them to lay me off and keep the kids as I had no intent to working 5 days a week for someone else at this point of the game. The house is paid for and frankly... I am not interested in full time. I may go back to work part time in May.. but I may just retire as I will be 62 in about a year and a half. First time in 47 years I have been without work as I started to work about a week after my father died unexpectedly in 1959 when I was 13.
So... gas prices and groceries have caused many to "tighten up". Or at least they better if they are smart as it will get much worse before it gets better. I feel for those that have kids to raise or send through college and glad I don't anymore.
Good luck with that and look at all the perks you get from sending them through... you get the bumper sticker that states that you are the Proud Parent of a son or daughter going to "Boo-gitty Boo-gitty U".
And you can watch a college basket-ball game and actually see the benefit you are providing them. They will be the one's that when the camera scans to the crowd attending that are holding the sign that says, "Mom-Dad.. Send Money"...... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
You can say anything you want but when you consider that the wages of millions of Mexicans and Billions of Chinese are a fraction of what we can live on in the US and then you add in that they do not have the cost of the environmental protection requirements and a bunch of other issues, it only means that we in the US can never compete on an even field with them. As for getting them up to out level. I don't see it happening any time soon. There simply are to many people that can live on a couple bucks an hour in other countries. Compared the the number of people in the US.
IF this was such a great idea, then why does any country have restrictions?
The fact of the matter is that government (both parties) is in the back pocket of people with lots of money (read businessmen) And this is only getting worse. The special interest and lobbiest have got us over a barrel. The CEO and upper management and the Gov. really do not care.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
The CEO and upper management and the Gov. really do not care.
As witnessed by the comment from our illustrious VP Cheney when asked about the recent poll of Americans that suggests 3 out of 4 feel our economy is in trouble.
"So!"
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The so from the VP was meant to convey that you cannot nor do I want an admistration that bows to the whims of a poll!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I doubt Cheney has much concern for anybody, but just for the record, he said "So?" when a reported said polls show the majority of Americans think the Iraq war was a mistake.
I doubt Cheney has much concern for anybody
Exactly.
Ashamed to be represented by such an arrogant clod,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The world might be a very different place if GW had just picked a different VP to be his master.
What was it Ross Perot said 15 years ago, about a large sucking sound?
We have a trade deficit with Germany and our 3rd largest trade deficit is with Canada (only 12% of the imports from Canada are for natural resources). It's hard to blame that on their low wages and lack of regulation. I think it has more to do with Wall Street bankers not caring about Main Street workers.
I would assume that some might have the idea that there might be a new Lie Neilson or a nice locally grown, cut and prepped stack of lumber?
I'm goin for the wood, one of the few American made products that I know was made here. Gotta get 'em B4 the Chinese buy it all and then sell 'em back to us with poisonous glues inside.
Then we have a VP that could give a rats patoot about his constituents. This discussion does NOT belong in the Cafe!
Trying to control my cynicism,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/20/2008 8:44 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bones,
NAFTA is said to have helped some regions. I don't see it around here, and I hear only bad news from folks in other parts of the U.S.A.. I don't think that the furniture industry needs an advantage over imports. They just need an even playing field in order to compete in the market. Anti dumping laws are a start but fall short of what's needed. I hope the next group that goes to Washington does something about it.
NAFTA has completely revitalized south Texas. The difference started becoming visible within a year or two after enactment, and has continued unabated. Although one can argue the fine points about how level the playing field really is, the NAFTA experience has confirmed (in a rather in-your-face way) what had been apparent for a long time, that the traditional Northeastern and Midwestern industrial centers were uncompetitive, not just with the rest of the world, but even with other regions of the US. Let's face it, old-style American manufacturing was dying long before NAFTA came along; NAFTA was just another in a long line of nails in the coffin.
-Steve
Steve,
I had forgotten about how NAFTA had helped Southern Texas. Glad to hear it. We have a similar situation here too. The dollar has dropped so much that Canadians ( the border is an hour north of here) are coming across the border to buy goods. Where do they go?? Walmart of course. They go there to buy Chinese made products. So the retailers here profit from the reduced value of the dollar. But everyone is suffering from high oil prices due in large part to the de-valued dollar.
For my (de-valued) $0.02, I'll take the low oil prices over the local boom in retail sales. That way the country can benefit. I'm glad that Southern Texas was helped by NAFTA. I don't think my area was so lucky. Our biggest manufacturer has lots 2000 employees plus about 500 contracting jobs since NATA was signed. The good news is that during that time HD, and Walmart have opened stores here. So now we have a place to work.
It's pretty hard to claim that Nafta is an overall win for the US when the trade deficit has gone up every year since it was passed. Government intervention is the only way this can be solved. It's the only way to create a level playing field. It's like saying we'll leave it to the good intentions of companies not to pour their waste products into the local river. In fact, our current tax laws say multi-national companies can decide how much US tax they want to pay if they have operations overseas. There is no requirement for proof.People like to say that globalism has changed the world, but forget that the entire history of the world is foreign trade. The Americas were settled in order to create new markets for Europe. The US gained a pre-eminent place in the world by having restricted trade policies outside of the US and very few restrictions within. If you want to know why foreign auto makers manufacture cars in the US go back and study the "voluntary" car quotes Reagan established in the 80's. Ask yourself why nobody has thought to try that with other goods. Unfortunately, in America today it's all about who can afford to hire the most lobbyists, and the average citizen be damned.
How could government regulation level this playing field? I think you're asking the government to unbalance the playing field in your favor.
"How could government regulation level this playing field? I think you're asking the government to unbalance the playing field in your favor."For example, if we leave it up to the good intentions of manufacturers not to dump their waste products into the local river, some unsavory manufacturer will do just that rather than pay to have it disposed of safely. Eventually he will gain a cost advantage over the other manufacturers that will force them to adopt the same procedure. Consumers may think they are getting a cheaper product until they realize municipalities have to raise taxes to pay to clean their water supplies and food prices go up because the pollutants are damaging crops.Governmental enforced pollution controls require every manufacturer to operate in the best interest of the American people. They level the playing field. Likewise, government policies should encourage foreign manufacturers to make the goods in the US if they want to sell them in the US. That's what every other country in the world does, and what Reagan did with the voluntary auto quotas. This would slow the hemorrhaging of US currency and devaluing of the dollar. Unfortunately, stopping it would also going to require balancing the budget unless we had a trade surplus. Shipping everything overseas may save money in the short run. Eventually the economy collapses and the vast majority of citizenry can't afford the cheap goods. When most of the people are in the underclass they will vote in a socialist government like they do in Venezuela and Lain countries. You can care about the quality of life of your fellow Americans now, or they won't care about yours later.
Excluding foreign participants through taxes is not leveling the playing field. You have a nice apocolyptic theory there, but I actively bet against it (as I'm sure most people do).
Opening the doors promotes business, whether you like it or not. Just because it doesn't employ your next door neighbor doesn't mean that it's not better for the community as a whole. America has decided: we want Ikea and Walmart and Home Depot. We want all of the cheap imports they bring in. And if possible, I bet we'd lower our standards if the government would allow us. Just look at what businesses are succeeding.
Buying American because it's American is not American.
As a side note: how is a trade surplus even possible if every country in the world forces manufacturers to produce domestically...as you stated?
Acutally, nafta has been a net win for the US, but some have gained at the others expense. If you think the government (whom ever is in there) is your savior, you will always be sadly dissapointed. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
<<They will stop mfg furniture and only importing and reselling.>>
There is some interesting information in the April Woodshop News about woodworking programs in schools across the U.S. (WOODWORKING EDUCATION: Our guide to the top post-secondary woodworking programs, beginning with an in-depth look at Pittsburg State University.) There is quite a list.
I'm just wondering what we're training all these future woodworkers for. With so much of the furniture business gone overseas, can cabinet and architectural products be far behind? Seems strange to be training woodworkers for jobs that won't exist when they are ready to join the workforce.
Mike
bones.
Sad as that news is there is good news. Some people will never accept imported goods no matter what the price and some otheres will be able to a have custom made stuff.. those with a strong reputation might find themselves in a position of filling a demand which to a degree the furnitue factries have met..
Another words a handful of people will profit from these events..
Now here's the positive spin..
China doesn't have much wood.. she imports most of it (much of it from America) However, the labor costs in China have doubled more than 20 times since Nixon's visit.. that will continue.. As it does, China will price herself out of our market due not only to rising labor rates but also the costs of transporting logs back and forth and shipping finished goods..
Those freight rates are on a steady price rise.. Oil was at $17a barrel but now is $110 a barrel that's a six & 1/2 times increase at the currant rate of gowth oil will reach the point where their labor rates and transportation costs make our own products cheaper.
I've seen various forecasts and the most optimistic is 5 1/2 years, However something I read this morning is that with the risk of inflation loaming that point could even come sooner..
One side down provides opportunities for the other side like you said! There was a story here back in the fall about a small wooden toy manufacturer here in MO that when the lead paint in toys stories started happening, had sales go through the roof. He could not hire enough workers to fill the orders. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
We went through a period of extreme trade imbalance in the '70s and '80s with Japan. We survived that. I wonder how many more of these episodes we will be able to weather. Our economy is huge, but somebody has to be doing value-added work. Not everyone can write software,sell insurance, or flip burgers.
As for my family, we won't buy Chinese crap. I'll build it or we'll by God sit on the floor.
Steve
There are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
Few years back the Furniture company in town Rex Furniture when out of business for the same reason China
They started in the 20s making porch swings and ending making fine oak chairs and kitchen sets that where solid wood.. Was really sad to see them go..
It was before I started WW and they has huge stacks of 20" high and 100' long of 4x4 oak under a shed roof sitting along the RR tracks with no fence or lights.. I'm from NJ and not use stuff un secured as I grew up in NJ
I'm kind of glade that its not there to test me hehehe :)
-rarebear-
http://www.rexmill.com My Hand Plane Resource
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