Hello,
I am planning to fume some white oak, would anybody know where I can find the ammonia to do it with?
Thank -you, Skinny
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Replies
Never tried to find any myself, but various posts here over the years have pointed to blueprint equipment suppliers. These days, with computers & plotters, those suppliers are getting scarce, so you may have a bit of lookin' to do.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike,
Why can't ya just use amonia from the grocery store?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You can use household ammonia. You just leave it in the fumer longer. It will get just as dark as using blueprint ammonia. We get the old jugs of blueprint ammonia for free. Saves the salesman a hazmat disposal charege. Mainly we use anhydrous ammonia in a 100 lb tank as we do large quantities of fuming.
Skinny,
A chemical supply house will have ammonium hydroxide. That's the "blueprint strength" ammonia. I'm not sure there are many blueline machines still in use now that plotters are standard for large drawings. So ammonia from a drafting supply might be hard to locate.
You can use household ammonia, but it takes a long time. Keep in mind that inside your fuming tent the humidity approaches 100% so wood movement could be an issue if you have to fume your project for a long time.
Anhydrous ammonia is a hazardous chemical and probably isn't what you want for this application, unless you are going into the fuming business.
Ammonia is nasty. Get yourself a GOOD respirator fitted with filters designed for ammonia, safety glasses, a face shield and proper gloves.
Spent ammonia is not a hazardous waste,per se. Dilute it with lots and lots of water and pour it on your lawn.
Good luck, have fun, be careful... And post some pictures.
Don't know much about what you are talking about but I do know ammonia. Household ammonia is mostly water, Ammonium Hydroxide is about 20% ammonia (the rest is water). You can order this from Fisher Scientific on-line, this would work good for your purpose. Follow the precautions, ask Fisher for an MSDS. This will cause skin burns and inhalation hazard too (especially if you are heating it)but not like Anhydrous ammonia.
Anhydrous ammonia is ammonia without water. It boils at minus 28 degrees F (liquid under pressure, goes from liquid to vapor at room T-think along the lines of propane, which BTW boils at -43F). It is an inhalation hazard, and will burn your skin. "without water" means it looks for water - lungs, skin and eyes. Very bad stuff, typically used for farm fertilizer and used as a cooling chemical in refrigeration. Oh and did I mention it is used in the manufacture of methamphetamine?
So most places in the country if you start looking for anhydrous ammonia, and try to buy it, your local law enforcement might want to ask you a few questions. Furthermore, if you did buy it (which it is not illegal to purchase), some states it is a felony to transport it in an un approved container. I have worked with it a lot dismantling meth labs and have seen the end result when things go wrong for the bad guys. Ask any farmer who uses it and he will also tell you how nasty the stuff is. So use some other ammonia such as Ammonium Hydroxide. Oh and at high concentrations it is flammable. I'm a chemist and I still haven't figured this one out yet?Children are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
"Dilute it with lots and lots of water and pour it on your lawn."
That's not necessarily a good idea. Unless the pH conditions are just right, the nitrogen won't be in a suitable form for absorption. (The nitrogen has to oxidize to nitrate before it becomes absorbable.) If the pH conditions are wrong, it will remain as ammonium ions, which won't do much more than burn (and possibly kill) the grass.
-Steve
That would be an Organic Vapor respirator cartridge, use it
I ordered a 2 gallons a couple months ago from High Valley Chemical. Here's the link to their site:
http://www.hvchemical.com/
The strongest "househould" ammonia I've been able to locate came from Ace Hardware and it was 10% ammonia. This has been more than adequate to achieve the desired color for the projects I've wanted to fume, or establish a base color that I could shift using a combination of other finishes.
As noted in an earlier post, the only concentrations I could find that were stronger than 10% came from the blueprinters or the chemical supply companies like Fisher Scientific or Cole-Parmer and that was ammonia hydroxide in the neighborhood of 20-25%.
Do NOT underestimate the potential health dangers associated with this finishing process. Even the household ammonia can concentrate vapors strong enough to do damage. Under NO circumstances would I do this inside your house regardless of the ammonia that you use. Do it in a well-ventilated garage or outside. Rubber gloves, eye protection, and breathing filter, and/or a full face mask with the appropriate filter are strongly recommended or just plain required.
There have been a number of very good discussions about ammonia fuming in the past and the search function can help you uncover those. If those discussions raise new questions, post-up again! You'll get a more detailed answer to a more specific question.
Also, don't be afraid to spend a couple of dollars and a weekend on some test pieces. The best thing I got from the tests was what to expect from the various combinations of dyes, stains, glazes, fillers, and topcoats applied before or after the fuming process. There is no way I could relate to you the colors you can achieve with a combination of finishes that involve fuming, and it's well worth the time!
tony b.
While I have not seen the technique discussed here, I have done some fuming in the past by wiping household ammonia directly on a piece. Kind of like grain raising with a kicker. My only caution (other than using all appropriate safety precautions) is to get the household ammonia WITHOUT detergents added. Controllable by the number of times you wipe it on and saves you from building a fuming tent. I did this to a single stool after it was assembled and the wife was pleased with the results.
Since I never heard of the techinque, but am well familiar with ammonia, could someone post pics? I am interest. Also since if I like what I see, I can just do it at work under a fume hood.
DaveChildren are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
Here are some handplane shavings, both from the same board, before and after fuming overnight.
View Image
-Steve
does this technique work on honduran mahogany? what other woods besides oak? that appears to be maple in your pic.thanks.
Yes, mahogany fumes beautifully, as will any wood with a high tannin content.
The shavings are white oak. The maple is just for background interest. ;-)
Yes, fuming works with any wood that contains tannins, and true mahoganies do contain them, although not as much as oak. Red oak generally doesn't work too well, because the slightly greenish tone added by the fuming combines with the naturally pinkish color of the wood to create an unpleasant vomit color.
-Steve
thanks guys
I have heard, but never tried, the following:
To fume wood that doesn't contain natural tannin wipe the parts with brewed tea first. Then fume as described in these posts.
Has anyone else heard of this? Has anyone tried it? I'd like to hear about successes and/or failures from anyone who has tried this method.
I'm thinking that the tea would darken the wood so maybe the ammonia would have no effect. But tea does contain tannin, (you have to let it brew for more than three minutes to begin to extract the tannin from the leaves).
Anyway, I once saw my brother make a gun stock stain from chewing tobacco and boiled linseed oil, so maybe anything is possible...
It works (there was an article somewhere recently; I don't recall where), but it's really not the same thing. If you're going to do that, you may as well use a dye, since that's basically what you're doing by applying the tannin and then darkening it. The color is in the layer of applied tannin, not in the wood.
What I like about fuming is that the color penetrates very deeply into the wood. Because of that, I can rough out pieces, fume them, then select for color and grain, all before I commit to the time-consuming finish milling.
-Steve
Agreed!!
The beauty of fuming is in the deep penetration. It's not a "surface finish" like stain or dye.
You have a good idea about fuming before finish milling. As we "fumers" know, boards from different logs, and even from the same log, can come out of the tent with different coloration. I'm going to try your method in the future. Thanks for the idea.
You can buy tannic acid and mix it with water and apply it to other woods. We find the wood fumes more if the wood is still moist with the tannic acid. Try the tea. I don't think it will be as strong as the tannic acid mixture. Do a comparison test with tea and a piece with nothing.
Steve,
That must be some kinda plane!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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