I’ve seen some discussion of this in relation to other queries, but I’d like to solicit feedback to the specific question.
I’m a weekend warrior with a 3HP cabinet saw, a recent upgrade from a contractor’s saw. Just like all the others, including the saws in my father’s basement I grew up learning on, I can barely function with the stock blade guard, and didn’t even install it. I am very aware that this is NOT IDEAL to say the least. I have seen a number of aftermarket guards that include dust collection and mount to the ceiling or off to the side of the saw. (For example, I think ForestGirl mentioned she uses the version from Penn State Industries.) I want to get one; I’d love to hear folks’ views of various alternatives. Are they just glorified dust collection, or do they also add safety? And especially how well do any of them work with really narrow stock, since those cuts have always seemed least safe to me?
FWIW, the saw is a Grizzly 1023S; I don’t know to what extent that makes a difference for any of the guards out there.
Replies
"Are they just glorified dust collection, or do they also add safety?" Oh, trust me, they do add safety. It's funny you ask, though, because at least with the Penn State unit, they don't officially call it a blade guard. Totally a legal liability thing, methinks.
Narrow stock is one of the things that require some adjustment though, because the hood is so wide. An L-shaped auxillary fence with a pusher helps solve that problem. Doug posted pictures of his recently, but with this screwed-up search function, I doubt I could find it quickly for you. If you drop me an email, I'll send you Dan Kornfeld's "source document" for it (thank you Jackie Chan!)
Two things about the Penn State unit I like: (1) it can be mounted either to the ceiling or to the saw and (2) the adjustments for the hood are pretty quick and easy (up, down, right, left). That's besides the fact that it's built really well.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have posted, a few times now, picts of my shop built, ceiling mounted "blade guard" with dust collection. Cost only a couple of bucks to build and a few hours of work.
Yes I know some on this site would rather do woodworking instead of building guards, hold downs and other shop essentials. Others say they don't have the time to build shop aids, my time is limited and it's better to purchase a ready made unit. Then they can "brag" about all the money saved. Others that purchase might complain about it beeing "not quite right" but hey it's better than nothing.
Build your own, then YOU get what you want and need.
DJK
I'm with you... even though I don't have alot of time as of late. I still seem to have more time than money.
I'll search for your post... You got me interested.
Muleboy.
Yesterday I posted a request on how to ceiling mount (11 ft) a Penn State TSGuard.
If you have one mounted to a ceiling and have posted pics, can you tell me the thread to find to see your pics?
Thanks
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Can you tell me where to find your posting for the guard? I am seriously interested in the idea of a shop-built unit of this sort. Thanks!
In case you can't find DJK's original post with plans for an overhead guard (we all know how much fun it is to search, LOL), here's a page at WoodCentral that has plans for one:
http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/overarm_guard.shtmlforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks!!!
I built the overhead dust/blade guard Forestgirl referenced from Woodcentral plans. It works as well as any commercial product available. It cost about $60 in materials and about 8 hours to construct and install. Couple this with a zero tolerance throat insert ($20) Micro Jig splitter ($20) and an auxiliary short fence (crap material) and you have a combination of dust control and blade safety features for $100 or less. If you decide to build the blade guard, email me if you have any questions.
Doug
Thanks!
I use anti-kickback wheels on my saw and have grown to appreciate them a great deal. Does anybody have a feel for whether these blade guards either A: coexist nicely with the wheels or B: perform the antikickback function and so replace the wheels?
Has anyone seen a commercial solution that prevents kickback, keeps body parts away from the blade, collects dust and permits narrow rips?
Or has anyone built a guard that does all that?
I've been thinking about building my own overhead guard because of this question. I am wondering if it could be designed to exert some force downward on the workpiece while still smoothly riding up and over the leading edge of the piece as it's pushed into the blade. My initial thoughts are to create a thick lexan guard with very smooth bottom edges and a smoothly curved leading edge profile on the sides. The telescoping mechanism (I would like to attach mine to the ceiling) would have to be rigid and perhaps counterbalanced with a weight or spring-loaded to exert the downward force. I wonder if there would need to be a way to quickly remove the weight or spring force for cross-cuts? (I'd also like to be able to quickly remove the guard's side panel nearest the fence to enable narrow rips.)
I have the 1023slx and the Penn state unit. It does add safety simply by the fact it keeps your hands away from blade. It also provides dust collection. I looked at that unit and the excalibur. The big difference is the grade of the clear plastic. On the excalibur it is much thicker. The Penn state unit is similar material to the one that came with the saw. I really like mine and use it religiously. I use the microjig splitter and it fitts right down over it. I ended up going with the Penn state because of the price difference. I have not been dissapointed. Good luck on the decision.
IMO, anyone who sells a table saw (or other power tool) with a guard not designed to a convenient & usable all the time essentially not usableguard should be liable for any damage suffeered by a user who bypasses it PERIOD. The kinds of standard guards generally available could be easily done better. There are only two cheapskate reasons riving knives aren't incorporated more commonly-1)nobody says boo & 2) they can save a few cents. To hell with the consumer's hands; $2x 5000 machines is $10 g in our pockets, HEY!!!
There are numerous safety issues being ignored. Some may be non-addressable, but now that we have ultra smooth cutting tablesaw blades (have had for a while; Forrest isn't a newcomer), how about blades that minimize the finest particles prduced? Why not make the convenience of power tools as safe as the use of hand powered tools?
IMO, anyone who sells a table saw (or other power tool) with a guard not designed to a convenient & usable all the time essentially not usable guard should be liable for any damage suffeered by a user who bypasses it PERIOD.
What about personal responsibility? We always demand choices; perhaps we should bear the consequences of our purchasing decisions and activities.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I agree that purchasing and using something constitutes tacit agreement with the conditions you apply. The problem is that after a lot of years, we are left with the same problems and the same unworkable solutions as well as more problems that are dangerous(MDF sawdust, for example) & which require a lot of expensive gear (cyclones, electrostatic collectors, for this example). Where are the alternatives? How available are they? But maybe there is a really obvious answer: let's see how Sawstop does over the next few years. They aren't cheap.They are an alternative I wish I could afford.
But maybe there is a really obvious answer: let's see how Sawstop does over the next few years. They aren't cheap.They are an alternative I wish I could afford.
I think you've gone to the heart of the issue. Will people pay for more safety? I could have bought a SawStop, which would almost certainly have made my accident a minor one, and I wouldn't be in rehab now. Should I really be able to sue Delta, when I bought the Unisaw on purpose due to it being $1K cheaper? If you mandate this technology, how many people will be unable to afford woodworking? If I'd had proper training, perhaps I might have avoided this accident -- would this be more effective than a safer saw? Should we be required to take classes before buying machinery?
There are more difficult questions than there are palatable, effective answers.
You mentioned the small particle issue again. Are you aware of a blade design that saws MDF without creating small particles? It's hard to believe that, say, Freud would be aware of such a design and not get it to market in a great big hurry.
My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Edited 1/20/2006 8:58 pm by John_D
When proven safety devices are universally used, they generally get pretty cheap. These $400 overhead blade guards would be al ot cheaper if they came with every saw.
Take a look at any lawn mower you purchased in the last 10 years. They all shut off when you let go of the handle. Manufacturers (or their insurers) got tired of paying judgments when people got their fingers and toes cut off. The added cost is minimal.
I think most of us feel that if we get hurt it was our fault and it often is, but the foreseeable misuse of power tools may not be much of a legal defense. Once a few woodworkers win big judgments against saw makers whose blade guards are unusable, we'll see something like Sawstop technology or at least better guards.
As far as personal responsibility goes, sure, we should all be careful, but when the available technology allows for increased safety, sometimes a few lawsuits are necessary to push the technology. I remember when car makers said it would be economically unfeasable to install seatbelts. Then it was shoulder belts, then airbags, etc.
I'm in agreement; what would be the added cost of a european style riving knife if every Delta came that or something comparable if patents forbad that specifically?
Too long we are mushrooms kept in the dark and fed fresh bullplop daily.
After reading, awhile back, how the industry's lawyers stonewalled the SawStop inventor, I'm not at all surprised we're stuck with the junk they put on saws and call a blade guard. As long as they all stick together and make the aforementioned junk the "industry standard" nothing will change. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) Do unto others as you tell them they should do unto you....
Here I go again...
this is not directed at FG... Just at the whole "Saw Stop" thing.
From what I read they lawyers did that because the "Saw Stop" guy wanted to make his invention mandatory or even the law. I for one am not entirely comfortable with that. I mean so much of what we deal with on a day to day basis is too highly regulated and controlled already. I for one find woodworking to be one of the last outlets where I can "speak my mind" so to speak.
The Saw Stop could bring about a whole generation of woodworkers that have no fear, no healthy respect, no admiration for what a table saw can do... good and bad.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but, the "saw stop" can keep you fingers attached if you run them into it, but it can't prevent kickback, can't keep a board from launching across the room. I had a small piece of wood hit my knuckle after a cross cut. It shot out because it bound up in the stock throat plate, and launched. I would be much happier to see better splitters, better blade guards, zero clearance inserts as standard safety upgrades. These would not cost an arm and a leg as would the extensive redesign needed for something like the "Saw Stop".
I mean the guy has a U.S. patent on the idea. He should reap the rewards for the next 20 years. When his Patent expires in 2024 or 2025, then we will see the "Saw Stop" come out in other manufacturers machines. Right now... they would have to pay royalties (if he let them at all) and they would price themselves right out of the market.
Sorry for the rant folks but my life is way too legislated as it is.
Muleboy.
I knew the meere mention of SawStop was going to kick up a storm <G>. The episode of which I speak took place before he tried the Nuclear Option of getting the gov't to make them mandatory. So, if we can, let's leave that dumb move out of the discussion (most of us agree it was dumb, the degree of forgiveness varies, LOL).
My recollection of the situation was that he had been in negotiations with the various bigger tool companies for them to incorporate the SS technology into their saws, there was some kind of a big meeting, and basically all the tool company attornies squelched the idea. Crappy blade guards/splitters are the industry standard in the US, and if they were to improve on the safety features of the saws in any way, they fear they'll lay themselves open to more suits because they didn't make the saws "safe enough."
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) Do unto others as you tell them they should do unto you....
Edited 1/28/2006 7:35 pm by forestgirl
Hi ALL,
I have a 25+ year old Delta contractors saw. The splitter that came with it has spring loaded anti-kickback pawls, easily rides up over the stock and has a splitter whose shape is reminescent of a European riving knife. All these components are, at best, not the beefiest, which would substantially make the whole apparatus much safer.
The splitter is approx. 3/32" thick, just slightly thinner than a typical sawblade, and the front edge is/was blunt. I filed the front edge to a knife edge all along its front edge so it would allow better entrance into the kerf at the back of the blade. This setup has served me well for all these years. And, oh by the way, I have several zero clearance inserts for use when ripping stock. For crosscuts, I prefer using my crosscut sled.
I have a Biesemeyer fence and will be adding a modified version of the ceiling mounted overarm blade guard I saw on WoodCentrals WEB sitte, incorporating the "riving knife" into its design, although most likely will be a separate component. Pics will be posted when I am finished.
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
The SawStop does attempt to reduce kickback, by means of a proper riving knife. I'd sure like one of those on my Unisaw.
I also wish Delta would have licensed that SawStop technology, as it would have avoided the tendon damage I caused myself in December. I don't agree it would make people cavalier about safety -- who wants to spend $60 for the brake and replace a $110 blade because hhe made a bonehead mistake? It's like arguing against seatbelts, because they make drivers too safe. :)
I decided against the SawStop, a little bit because of price, but more because it's hard to make a big-dollar purchase with a company that might disappear, leaving you with no source for the consumable brakes. (The owner doesn't seem happy to be manufacturing; if he sells out, will the acquirer provide brakes for the next 30 years?)
If a reputable company brings out a similarly effective technology at a decent price, I might consider dumping my Unisaw and getting a safer machine. Of course I'd love a retrofit! But I don't favor making these devices mandatory. And I agree it all starts with the operator.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Lawnmowers shut off when you let go of the handle.
I'm pretty sure that federal law mandated that lawnmowers have a shutoff by a certain date - probably at least ten years ago. There were other acceptable ways to give that safety than the shut off also. The law also changed the means of starting of the mower
I've been watching the discussions of blade guards for a while. There's probably more than one good way to solve it, but I have to say that I've tried a few, and the ones that were inconvenient to use in our shop didn't last a week. So after some frustrating experiments, we coughed up the money for this overarm unit with dust extraction. It's been at work for a year now.
DR
Who supplied it for you?
Jeema,
My SCM dealer.
DR
Ring, I am curious to know: what was wrong with original SCM guard, if it was supplied?Philip Marcou
That's the new guard. It comes with the newer SCM saws (I bought an Si310 a year or so ago)- on the fully loaded versions.
Older saws or ones that didn't have all the installed upgrade options wouldn't have this guard (or the protractor head, etc)
It is nice, except that there isn't a way to depress the detent and rotate it out of the way from the standard operators position- you have to lean/walk around.
For smaller saws, the Excalibur guards work pretty much the same way.The older I get, the better I was....
Papanick,
You're right about rotating it out of the way, you need to walk over there to release the arm swing. But 90% of the time I find it's enough to raise it high to get it out of the way. The other 10% - I walk.
Same can be said of the fence actually - on the new models a servo motor sends it out to the right setting. I need to walk over there if setting is more than an arm's reach.
DR
Hi Philip,
The saw is 10 years old and came with a guard that was in the trash the first week. The "splitter" in back of the blade (which is perfect) had a silly unadjustable and in-the-way guard that bolted to it. It had no independent height adjustment, just moved up and down with the splitter that follows the blade. And you couldn't ever see the sawline with it on. Totally useless.
DR
Anon,
Have a look at this blade guard. http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/dustbegone.htm
I bought one last summer and couldn't be happier. Very well made and it does a decent job of pulling the sawdust from the top of the blade. Its not perfect, but none of them are.
Regards,
axeman1972
What strikes me as a disadvantage to that design (Dust Be Gone) is there's no way to adjust the guard (hood, whatever) forward and backward once the unit is mounted. The "features" list says 100% adjustability, so maybe I'm just not seeing it.
Also, the guard comes with a lifetime guarantee, but the steel frame only 1 year? What's up with that? I do like the fact that the DC hose comes straight off the top of the guard.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
There is an adjustment for the back and forth position of the guard. At the end of the main bracket there is a slide that will allow about plus or minus 3" of travel. I have mine set so the guard is centered on the saw blade.
I don't know what it would take to damage the main frame or why only a one year guarantee. Its made of square tubular steel, should last a lot longer than a year.
regards,
axeman1972
Good to hear he didn't overlook the obvious (the forward/backward adjustment). Didn't see it in the pictures, sorry. re: the frame, the welds would be the biggest risk. I guess if they're gonna go it would be within the first year? How much does that unit run $$???forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Price was $200 plus shipping from Louisville, KY.
Hello.. David Magee here.. Long time lurker, first time poster..
I am in discussions with Steve, the guy that sells the Dust Be Gone system. He is very open to suggestions and I look forward to buying his product very soon (he is currently painting the next batch and will have them ready to sell soon). I asked about the option of a 4 inch take off for the hose, which will require a width modification of the guard box. He has already had the same discussion with Bill Pentz and has agreed to sell his system with the option, which I though was very responsive. It appears that he is a one man band that is trying to make a decent product, in his spare time. I'll report back once I have recieved, installed, and used the Dust Be Gone..
David
I work for a window manufacturer as a carpenter in their maintenance department. I have a 5 hp Delta Industrial Unisaw with the Delta Uniguard 34-976 overhead guard. It is a sufficient guard and looks as it belongs on the saw compared to others that I've used or seen in other facilities. The guard is mandatory, as is the splitter and anti kick back paws. If I need to remove them or move them out of the way to make a cut I first have to contact the maintenance supervisor to let him know the guards will be out of use for a specific cut, Direct Connect helps with that. Safety devices are a pain sometimes but not near the pain of one incident.
I need to replace the blade guard on my Unisaw. Any suggestions other than the Delta replacement? The on-line picture of the replacement seems to have a different appearance than the one that came with the saw twenty years ago and I'm a bit hesitant to order it. Thanks for any help.
Jim
Just want to see if I'm interpreting your post correctly: Sounds like you're wanting to replace the stock guard (lost? broken?) with the same type of guard?
Anything that looks different may very well have different mountings, clearances, etc. I'd think. I have a couple of old guards from unknown machines that I'd be glad to just send you, and you could see if they fit by some incredible coincidence.
Do have the stash to spend on an overhead guard like the ones we've discussed in this thread. The Penn State (click) for instance? That'd be the way to go, IMHO -- something that's easy to move out of the way, help collect dust coming off the blade. Pal it up with a removable splitter, and you'll be in 7th Heaven. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks, FG. And yes, I can spring for the one linked. However, there is nothing on that site to tell me if it will fit my Unisaw. Also, where can I find a good removeable splitter? 7th heaven awaits! :)
Jim
P.S. I guess you can tell I'm not the most knowledegable person who visits here. A gross understatement!
P.S.S. I'm also not the most observant. Went back and read more cosely. Thanks again.
Edited 4/18/2006 7:58 am ET by sansmnd
You might check http://www.biesemeyer.com/safety/blade_guard_delta.htm for the guard for your saw. (also look at their "scratch & dent/clearance listings)
Pat
The overhead guards should fit any saw. There are several, including the PSI unit, Excalibur and Brett Guard. The splitter is what you might have to shop around for matching-wise. If you can't find a splitter that will adapt to your saw, you can make a wedge or pin that fits in the throat insert. You wouldn't have anti-kickback palls, so using a featherboard would be more important than ever (IMHO; there are folks out there who would disagree, but I like my fingers, and prefer my tummy be unbruised).
The Biesemeyer splitter (linked above) is probably the cat's meow. My old saw wouldn't accomodate, so I bought a Merlin.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/18/2006 12:36 pm by forestgirl
I just went back to see what kind of saw you have. A Unisaw! You lucky dog. I wouldn't be surprised if Biesemeyer makes a splitter for that saw.
"I guess you can tell I'm not the most knowledegable person who visits here." That would be Richard Jones, LOL! Hope you have bought yourself a good table saw how-to book, read and stay safe!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/18/2006 12:46 pm by forestgirl
I am indeed fortunate to have the Unisaw. I didn't know that when I bought it these many years ago but am realizing it after reading about them here. Blind squirrel syndrome! I have only recently developed a desire to do some precision work but the tool is better than the operator. I am learning, however. I bought the TS book published by Fine Woodworking. I didn't know how much I didn't know! I have SOOO many questions. E.g., is there a splitter with anti-kick back that I can use with the PSI blade guard?
So far as safety is concerned, I have good reason be constantly aware. Two minor accidents about five years apart have made me this way. I am left with only small scars on my left pinky and my left thumb. As you can probably guess, I was trying to guide a samll piece through the TS with my left hand while pushing with my right. I knew enough to use a push stick but "forgot" what my other hand was doing both time. I don't do that any more. I'm somtimes a bit slow. :) Hold downs, splitters, blade guards and feather boards are more than good ideas - who woulda thunk it?
Thanks to all who take the time to post here. It is a wonderful resource for people like me who want to learn skills and tecniques not previously attempted. I suspect I'm not the only novice trying to get better who takes advantage of the information put out. Bear with us, please.
Jim
Edited 4/19/2006 4:11 am ET by sansmnd
"E.g., is there a splitter with anti-kick back that I can use with the PSI blade guard?" You just gotta look through the various options and see what fits your saw. Don't worry about the OHBG. Even the Brett Guard, which is certainly not splitter friendly, could probably be positioned to accomodate one. (Take a look at that article I linked to.)
Do you like to fabricate your own stuff? You could make an OHBG in your shop:
http://woodcentral.com/bparticles/blade_guard.pdf
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The Biesemeyer 78-431 splitter (for the left-tilt Unisaw) includes anti-kickback pawls. It's under $160 at amazon.com, less if you can wait for a coupon or sale. You could combine that with pretty much any overhead blade guard, like the PSI or the Delta or the Biesemeyer. Remember to consider over-blade dust collection, which can make a pretty significant difference.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I just ordered the Bies splitter from Amazon and got it for about $30 below their "asking" price of $157. They price match so I called and told them tools-plus.com is selling it for $126 plus $6.50 S&H. They matched the $126 and tossed in 10% of the price difference :)
Amazon is pretty stringent in their requirements for price matching (competitor must have bricks and mortar outlet, etc) but tools-plus met all the criteria. Life is good.
...so why didn't you just order from tools-plus? :)
I'll probably order there rather than from Amazon, because I have to pay tax when I order from Amazon, but not from tools-plus. Also, I got my Unisaw from tools-plus and got really good service from them.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I've dealt with amazon for many years and had good experiences (also had a coupon) and with the 10% it was a little cheaper. I've never dealt with tools-plus but will certainly consider them in the future.
Oh, you'll get no argument from me. I was just idly curious about your rationale, in case there was something for me to learn.
I too have ordered from amazon and been just fine with it. I think I'll be ordering one within the next week or so, too.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Thanks John, and to all who offered ideas.
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