Hey everyone,
I am going to experiment with hammer veneering and would like any advice that you guys think a newbie would find useful. I am particularly interested in advice regarding open time of hide glue, i.e. is it a good idea to use urea to extend the open time of the glue or does it weaken the bond so much that it is better to just work within the limitations of the glue.
I have ordered 1# of 192 gram hide glue from Olde Mill Cabinet Shoppe based on reading that Rob Millard uses their product. (Are you out there Rob?) How much coverage can I expect from 1#? What is a source for urea? I have lots of questions that I am sure can be learned through experience, but hey, I’m lazy.
Oh yeah, what about veneer hammers, make your own or buy one? Wood face or brass or UHMW….other…? What about the size? Is bigger better, or is concentrating the force more important? I’m thinking in the 3″ to 5″ range.
Feel free to answer as many questions as you want from zero to all of them. Thanks!
Rob
Replies
Rob,
First of all, don't swing the hammer. I know that you already know that.
Don't you need a face that will heat up to activate the glue? That means brass and not UHMW or wood. Unless you plan to activate the glue and smooth out the veneer with the hammer.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Rob:
I use an ~3" wide brass-faced hammer. Make sure it's smooth. Not a problem the first time, but after you've used it for a while it's easy to end up with a little dried glue stuck on the face. You can "hammer" some awful gouges into a piece pretty quick...
The best advice I ever got was: take a few sheets of 12"X12" veneer (something cheap and durable), and hammer veneer them to a substrate. The next day, check how well you've done (pour water over the face and see if any bubbles appear). Usually the edges are where you find problems. Now peel them off with the help of a steaming iron and glue them back down again. After about a dozen sheets, you'll feel like an old pro.
Work quick, keep the workspace clear and don't push too hard.
Rather than spiking my hide glue with urea (and, mind you, I'm an organic chemist...) I find it easier to just squirt some "liquid" hide glue into the pot. My first experiments with veneer were direct pressings using Titebond's liquid hide glue. 10+ years later, they're still looking fine. I usually break out the hot hide glue for simple curves. For small flat pieces, I use Unibond and a press.
-t
Rob,
You don't need to add urea to the hide glue, in fact you shouldn't. Hammer veneering works, because of the fast set time, so the more quickly the glue gels the better. I once hammer veneered a card table top, on an unbearably hot August day; I thought I would never get it done, because the glue didn't grab like it should.
The iron will take care of areas that gel before you can hammer them down, which will happen with all but the smallest sheets. Just watch that the iron isn't too hot if it sizzels then it is too hot.
I really like the hammer I made with the UHMW plastic blade. It seems to be the perfect material, since it is durable, non marring, naturally slippery and nothing sticks to it. My hammer is 3" wide, but I can't see any reason why a little wider or narrower wouldn't work just as well.
The best advise you can get, is to glue size the substrate. Doing this will make everything go so much easier. Also, pick a fairly tame veneer to start with. When you get comfortable with the process, then you can try some crotches or burls. The most difficult veneers I have worked with is birdseye maple and poplar. I think this may be, because they are typically rotary or half round sliced. I once dampened a piece of poplar veneer I was using as crossbanding; I walked away for just a minute or less, and when I came back, I could not find the veneer. It had curled up, in to what looked like a 1" poplar dowel and rolled off the bench. I eventually got it hammered down, but it wasn't easy.
I can't really say how much coverage you get from a pound of glue.
Rob Millard
http://americanfederalperiod.com/woodshop.html
Thanks to all who have replied so far, especially you Chris I would have wasted a lot of time trying to beat the veneer down by swinging the hammer at it. I think I could have done it, it just would have taken longer than necessary.
Ted, I plan to practice as soon as I get all of my materials lined up. The reason I started down this road in the first place is that I want to veneer the top on a dresser and have the veneer continue over the edge that will be a modified 1" radius. Probably not the best piece to practice on. ;^) I do a lot of veneer work and have a 5' x 9' vacuum press for flat panels and bent lamination.
Rob, you gave some excellent guidance. I have a couple of questions though. Do you set the veneer, face side down, on the glued substrate to apply glue to it? In other words do you try to get glue on the face of the veneer to lubricate the hammer? Also, could you go into more detail about glue sizing the substrate? I haven't seen this mentioned before. Do you use watered down hide glue for sizing? What is the advantage of this step?
Follow Rob's method on veneering, his work speaks for itself.
I like a large piece of brass for a hammer better. I use a coffe mug heater that is available at Target that is pressure activated to hold my hammer. I made my hammer with a 5/16" thick piece of brass. What this does is put alot of heat in the head and seems to work down the veneer better for me. I keep a bucket of hot water next to me and use it to wipe excess glue off the hammer, that's where the UMHW has an advantage, no wiping.
When you work the hammer you are trying to squeege the glue out from under the veneer. And Rob's right don't use Urea or anything the quick set time is the Hide glues advantage. I add water to my glue so that it is thick enough to stay together as it runs off a brush when I pick it up, not break apart in drips, but thinner than I normally use for glue ups.
On large surfaces I like to run a toothing plane over the substrate and the veneer. If the veneer is to thin just do the substrate, but I also like to saw my own veneers.
Put glue on the substrate, then lay your veneer good side down on the substrate, apply glue to the veneer, flip it, put on a thin coat of glue on the face and hammer it down. Start in the center and work your way out. You will remove most of the glue as you hammer. I like to use a cheap paint brush to apply the glue. Just don't leave the brush in the glue the iron ferrul will rust in the glue. I take mine out and let it dry It's as hard as a rock, but then when I need it a few min in the glue pot and it's like new. I love hide glue!
Just practice and you'll like it!
Talma,
Thanks for the tips. I can't wait to try it.
Yeah, Rob M's work is pretty nice isn't it. The way I figure it though since my shop is a two car garage and his is only one, I should be able to do work that is twice as good as his. Does that logic sound right to you? :^)
Rob
Rob, check out the DVD set that Rob Millard just produced on hammer veneering. He is too modest to promote his own product here in Knots, but I can tell you that it is an excellent tutorial and well worth the money. There are over 4 hours of instruction on making a Federal table, with much of it focused on hammer veneering. If it is not on his website then just drop him a note. I think it is exactly what you are looking for.Woody
Do you buy your hide glue in pearl or granulated form?Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Rob,
The sizing is thinned down hide glue. It prevents the glue used during the actual veneering from being absorbed too quickly.
The traditional way to hammer veneer, is to apply glue to the substrate and then place the veneer face down into that glue while you apply glue the inside face of the veneer. This is effective but very messy. I just put glue on the substrate and then place veneer onto the substrate and mist the face with water. This method works just as well, and does not leave the veneer covered in glue ( not to mention everything else).
You can see some more detailed information at the links below.
Rob Millard
http://americanfederalperiod.com/Tea%201.html
http://americanfederalperiod.com/T%20desk%203.html
Rob,
Thanks for the clarification and for the links. What's the matter, you don't want to answer 100 questions one at a time or what?
Seriously though, the links should help quite a bit. I have visited your site before but I forgot how much info you have there.
Rob
Rob,
If anything isn't clear in the links, or if you have any questions you think I could answer, don't hesitate to ask. As you might have guess I'm a serious advocate of hammer veneering.
I just did a major overhaul of the site, and I will be adding more information in the future.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I made a brass faced hammer similar to the one in the Seaton chest. As I've never used anything else, I think its fine!
I like having glue on the face side. I like the squishiness. Its a little like finger painting. And the glue filled the pores of the mahogany I was using.
I heat my cast iron glue pot on an electric burner not unlike Tim Talma's. I could heat my hammer and iron the same way. I picked up an old flat iron in an antique store for just this purpose. I heat that on the burner too, taking one thing off and putting the next on. All that cast iron stays warm pretty well so its not a problem. But I did find I could stain the veneer with the iron. To prevent this, I stole some of my wife's parchment paper. So that's MY tip. Parchment paper makes a good non stick barrier. Its got more body than wax paper and works fine with as much heat as you've got.
Adam
Good tip, I hadn't thought about that. Thanks Adam.
Rob
Adam,
I was surfing around looking for parchment paper when I came upon this from Wikipedia... "Vegetable (paper) parchment is made by silicone treatment of high density paper. This produces a cross-linked material with high density, stability and heat resistance."
I know that Wiki sometimes has false info. , but if this stuff contains any silicone I don't want it anywhere near any of my woodworking projects. Have you had any finishing problems after using it?
Rob
"Silicone" is the name for an entire family of compounds. The silicones that cause finishing problems are low-molecular weight molecules having an oily consistency (the analogous hydrocarbon would be something like mineral spirits), whereas the silicones used in high-temperature applications are high-molecular weight solid polymers (the analogous hydrocarbon would be something like polyethylene or UHMW).
-Steve
Steve,
That is good to know. The parchment paper does sound helpful. What field are you unfamiliar with Steve? I want to post a question about that. :^)
Thanks, Rob
Edited 2/26/2008 11:16 pm ET by Rob A.
French Renaissance literature, for one.
-Steve
Isn't silicone a problem for lacquer? Seems to me that there are some things that drive everything we do as woodworkers. I don't use lacquer so I have never bothered to worry about silicone. I finished my veneer with oil and shellac and it was fine.Adam
Adam,
Silicone presents a severe problem for most finishes. Ironically, the cure for it is more silicone. The problem with the cure is that once you start using it you may never be able to stop.
Rob
"Ironically, the cure for it is more silicone. The problem with the cure is that once you start using it you may never be able to stop."I have a similar problem with bacon, so I understand exactly what you're talking about.I didn't have any problems with my finishes, but that's good to know about the parchment paper. I should have expected it was silicone.Adam
"I have a similar problem with bacon, so I understand exactly what you're talking about."Nice one, Adam.I find that using good pressure with a laminate J-roller gives me decent results, but I will have to go and get or build a veneer hammer....Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
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