I hate to finish wood, but as a friend of mine use to say, “It’s not how you start the game, it’s how you finish it.” Well, lets just say I use to have a buddy do all my finishing work because I never seemed to get it right. Since I don’t have that same buddy working with me anymore I decided I needed to start learning to do it and do it right.
I have a project in mind that I want to do and I know how I want it to turn out in terms of look. Anyone have a recommendation on what wood I should use and what finish I should apply to get it to look like the attached picture. Thanks in advance for ANY suggestions.
Note: The picture I am attaching is from Everlife Memorials. I am not building a flag case, I’m simply trying to get close to that finish and using their picture as a sample.
Replies
It's pretty hard for me to really see the finish in the picture. It looks like a glossy, full filled (ie. no pores show) finish on walnut.
Perhaps you could describe your project more completely. What kind of wood are you using? What is the item you are making? How will it be used? Am I right about wanting a full filled film finish?
Well the project will be a bench at the foot of a bed. In terms of the stuff that you are asking, that is what I'm asking. I don't know about the finish you are speaking about so I was basically asking what type of wood should I go with (a lot that I'm reading about says Cherry) and how do I get it that dark prestigious look?
Ok, I know you guys hate when someone says Norm's name but if you go to http://www.newyankee.com/getproduct.php?0505 you will see a piece of furniture kinda with the finish look i'm looking for. Also, http://www.newyankee.com/getproduct.php?0209 is another example. Thanks!
If you wanted a cherry look, I would recommend cherry with no stain. But that will be much lighter, and though it will darken considerably it will be several generations before it might be as dark as the Normish cherry. No point at using cherry wood if it is going to be heavily painted with stain. Cherry accepts stain quite poorly, and is a challenge to get a decent looking dark shade.
If I were looking for a really formal prestigious look the wood of choice would be mahogany. Mahogany takes dye and stain quite well--no problems with blotching, unlike cherry, and the other diffuse porous substitutes for cherry such as maple or poplar. It does have open pores, but they are not nearly as large as oak, and therefore much easier to fill.
The first step is to make finish tests by working out every step of the process before touching the first finishing material to your actual project.
I would start with a water soluble dye, mixed from a powder. How dark it will make the wood depends on how strong you mix the solution. The dye establishes the basic overall tone and darkness. It should be a shade lighter than you want the overall finish to be in the end. (You can't judge the results of a dye stage until you put some top coat over it--it dries dramatically different from what will appear as soon as a top coat goes over it. You can approximate this look by wiping the dried dye with mineral spirits, but the effect is only approximate.)
After the dye, you should coat it with about a 2 lb. cut shellac. That seals the dye and keeps the next step from darkening it too much.
The next step would be to fill the pores with an oil based pore filler. I like Behlen Pore O Pak. You buy the natural and tint it to the shade you want using artists oil paint. For dark mahogany you would likely use burnt umber and burnt sienna pigment. The sienna is more red brown and the umber is dark brown.
For the kind of look you are describing you would likely want to make the pore filler pretty dark so that the pores end up a little darker, and perhaps a little browner rather than redder than the base color from the dye. Pore filler can be thinned to the consistancy of very heavy cream, brushed on with a chip brush, and then excess scraped and wiped off using a squeege or plastic scraper across the grain, followed by a coarse cloth. This leaves material in the pores but removes it from the surface.
After the pore filler has a week to cure in a warmish place, you can apply your final top coats. A wipe on varnish such as Waterlox works well, or you could continue on with shellac.
This kind of finish could look very much like the Norm finishes, at the scale of an internet picture, but in person would be dramatically more elegant and presitigous. It allows you to get a dark shade without just covering up the grain and figure of the wood with a heavy pigment.
Here is an example more or less of the kind of finish that is possible for you to achieve.
http://www.stickley.com/OurProducts.cfm?Collection=MadisonSquare
I see why I don't like finishing. I have a LOT of studying to do to achieve all you said.
I see why I don't like finishing. I have a LOT of studying to do to achieve all you said.
Bio,
It doesn't have to be complicated. Start off with a revised copy of Bob Flexner's book Understanding Wood Finishing or Jeff Jewitt's book Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing. These may be available at your local library. They will give you a good overview of which type of finish to use for different scenarios, along with tips on how to match or replicate colors.
Good luck,
Lee
Cherry accepts stain quite poorly, and is a challenge to get a decent looking dark shade.
?????????
Nothing could be further from the truth. If you had said maple, then I would agree.
Sounds like you are taking a beginner for a long, unnecessary ride, what with filling pores on mahogany, etc. I vote for keeping it simple.
Besides having my own cabinet business, I work full-time in a large cabinet shop and do all of the finishing work (stain, spray, glaze, etc). The look of that flag case could be replicated on maple, poplar, and cherry with similar results, without obscuring the grain. Just a matter of knowing which products to use and how to use them.
Lee
"Just a matter of knowing which products to use and how to use them."
Lee,
That's the point of the quesiton what are the products to go after. I know you can't tell me usage, but I figure I will get to that point with trial and LOTS of error!
Edited 6/14/2008 3:54 pm ET by BioHaz1906
Walnut with clear varnish. If it were me I guess I'd use polyurethane gel, but that's just my habit and something that I like right now.
Brian
You sure that is walnut? That appears more black cherrish as opposed to walnut. I have used tung on walnut and didn't get close to a look like that.
Ok, I have done some homework and research and found http://www.newyankee.com/getproduct.php?0401 which is EXACTLY the look I want. Now, I did more research and it was said that this was done using Cherry and with 3 parts American Cherry and 1 part standard Brown Walnut. Now, do I need to order these and make my own stain or can I simply buy some off the shelf brand like Minwax and mix it with the proper ratio? If I need to order it are there any suggestions on where to get it? Thanks for all the help, told you I hate finishing :)
>> Cherry and with 3 parts American Cherry and 1 part standard Brown Walnut.Unfortunately, you need to know the manufacturer of the stain he was using at the time. He's used at least two different manufacturers over the years. Even if you know the manufacturer, many times stains are changed and are either discontinued or are new a slight different color. Color names are unique to a manufacturer and one manufacturer's "American Cherry" is going to be different from another's.Howie.........
You can't see what a finish looks like in an internet picture of the that size. All you are seeing is the darkness. But knowing how the finish was achieve it is clear that it is by no stretch of the imagination a "prestigious" looking finish. It's the lowest level of amateur finishing. Put on a heavy stain, don't wipe it off properly so that it is almost paint, and then slap a couple of coats of a cheap polyurethane varnish on it. Norm has improved his furniture structure over the years, but his finishing is not a good example.
Putting it on cherry wood is a travesty, and a waste of a good wood. There is only one good reason to use cherry and that is for its color and the richness it develops as it darkens over time. If you are going to start dark use a different wood. To get that dark with a single pigmented stain, even mixed together, requires that the stain not be used properly. Pigmented stain must be applied, allowed to penetrate for a time, and then have all excess wiped off. This is because the binder used to hold pigment to the wood is a relatively weak varnish or oil/varnish mix. Left very thick and you have a soft film under the finish. It hides the grain of the wood--you might as well use MDF. To see a fully extreme example of this go to a mall that as a Bombay store.
You can get dark, even very dark, using a dye. That's a simple first step. If you start with maple you can get as dark as cherry. Maple has the advantage of not needed pore filler, compared to the mahogany I suggested for a prestige look. The disadvantage is that it tends to blotch when a pigmented stain is applied--much as cherry will do. Dye blotches less than pigmented stain, and will get dark without obscuring the fact that you are using real wood.
With a diffuse porous wood like maple (or cherry) you can then make the dark color a bit richer with even less blotching by sealing the dye with a light coat of shellac and then applying a pigmented stain, with a gel stain being a particularly good choice. Since it is basically dark enough all ready, you don't need to leave much of the pigment on the surface. At this point you can apply a protective top coat. A wiping varnish is the easiest to use. Waterlox Original/Sealer is a particularly good choice.
With finishing as with the rest of life there is no free lunch. Expanding the range of products just a little, can make a dramatic improvement in results. And, it's not really any harder to add an extra step. The extra steps are more fool proof, and the final result more certain than trying to get lucky with one basic stain product. Don't sell yourself short.
Ok, lets see if I have this right. Mostly my finishing technique is oils (Tung, BLO, Waterlox) and I take advantage of the natural beauty of the wood. Is it a fair statement to say if I want to provide this look I simply should use some cheap wood such as poplar or maybe even pine? If this is the case then I will simply do the project I have in mind with the oils that I know how to use and then experiement with the other stuff on the cheap wood.
Edited 6/14/2008 4:13 pm ET by BioHaz1906
I very much like the idea of using oil finishes on attractive woods. I'd agree with the concept of using walnut or cherry etc, and using no stain, just a oil finish, preferably with an oil/varnish mix for better durability and the same look as a pure oil finish. But this won't be really dark.
To get a really dark finish you have to use a colorant, and dye does dark better than pigment. And, since you can get as dark as you want, even starting from a light wood, you might as well use maple rather than a more expensive wood. (Pine is a different beast and much more difficult in many ways and really really hard to get it to look like dark cherry.) And, experimentatiion is a good thing.
Ok, I'm not afraid of trying some new stuff because that was the in asking what I could do to get better. I think I'll stick with the oils on "good" wood and then I will try some of these techniques out of poplar.
Also, I keep hearing people talk about Cherry blotching? I have only worked with it one time and the piece that I did in Tung seems to be fine. I simply sanded to 220 and 0000 steel wool between about 6 coats. Did I do something wrong?
Bio,Steve has given you very good over all advice. Not the least of which is that it is practically impossible to tell from a picture on the Internet what coloroant (dye or pigment) or what finish has been used on a sample of wood. There is no way you can rely on the color you are seeing on your monitor. You are looking at a non-color-managed image. Even if the color were controlled, it would be very hard to rely on a monitor image. I can can make almost any surface finish look the way I want it to by the angle of light and other photographic factors, so that even an oil finish can look like a thick-film or vice versa.You are trying to rely on names of dye stains to "match" a target color. That simply is not going to work. Those dye "names" are nothing more than mystery names and you're looking for a "formula" for success that doesn't exist. You ARE trying to short-cut the process of hands-on experience over time that is the only way to be able to predict how coloring and finishing wood. And that will not work. I am not saying it has to be complicated, I have tried to convince others here that finishing should NOT be an anxiety-provoking process. But it DOES take some dedication to DOING.Good for you that you are doing "research" and looking for answers, but they will not come as neatly-wrapped as you (and all of us) would like.re:"Also, I keep hearing people talk about Cherry blotching? I have only worked with it one time and the piece that I did in Tung seems to be fine"Blotching happens from application of a colorant, not a finish. Tung oil is a finish. If it had any colorant mixed with it, the colorant was diluted and attenuated by the oil. Retarding the action of a colorant is exactly the technique to use to minimize blotching, unevenness.Rich
I'm not trying to "short-cut" anything thus the reason for me asking how to do it. I saw Minwax had this poly shade thing called Bombay and it looked like it would do what I wanted and the first thing I said was it couldn't be that easy. I'm trying to learn and in doing so I raised the question to see some thoughts. Although it is a bit overwhelming some of the information that I was presented with initially I'm in the process of putting together an order for some different things to try that are based on the suggestions here. I know that nothing comes easy in life but trouble and I want to learn even if learning takes making mistakes so be it. While I admit I don't like to finish my work, I must also concede I may not like it because I don't know how to do it properly and that is what I'm trying to learn.
Hello Bio,
Isn't finishing Great? So you want to achieve a color, and look, a finish that will make you proud. We spend many hours working on our projects but very little time on our finishing techniques. Finishing is an art. Sure you could apply some brown stain then a poly to make it shine but is that what you are looking for? Most woodworkers want a finish that will amaze the customer (or for me family members, they all want me to build something). I hate to say it but finishing is more than wiping on "stuff" and you're done. If I could give any advice it would be to "PRACTICE" which makes perfect (my Mom told me that). Use cut offs or left over material to practice on. And RECORD every step of your finishing process (this way to can reproduce it later) Here are some terms and guidance:
The layers of finishing (all don’t need to be used)
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1. Substrate (wood)
2. Pre-conditioner, used to prevent “blotching”
3. Dye, penetrating, contains no pigment
4. Stain, contains a pigment that sits on the substrate
5. Chemicals, could be a bleaching agent, a chemical that alters the wood appearance
6. Sealer, covers and holds the layers beneath (could be first film forming coating)
7. Glaze, builds depth, such as staining on top of a sealer
8. Toner, a (pre) top coat that contains color
9. Top Coat, the final layer that protects the color or wood beneath
Pre-conditioner?
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A. Why use a pre-conditioner? It controls the stain from penetrating the wood to fast. Eliminates stain “blotching” of certain woods such as pine, birth, maple, ash, poplar, and cherry. This may be accomplished by using a “Glazing” technique (Glazing is applying a pigmented stain on top of a coating).
B. Different kinds of pre-conditioners.
a. Film forming
i. These pre-conditioners actually build a thin coating on top of the wood before you satin them.
ii. The tern “barrier” coat is used
The problem with these pre-conditioners is that you have to use caution when applying to ensure you have a uniform coating and achieve the same thickness on the entire surface of the wood. If not, blotching may occur.
iii. Examples of film forming pre-conditioners
1. 50% varnish and 50% mineral spirits, used when brushing varnish as a top coat
2. 50% lacquer and 50% lacquer thinner, used when brushing lacquer as a top coat, make sure that lacquer thinner is compatible with the lacquer being used.
3. ½ to 1 pound cut of de-waxed shellac, this can be used when shellac, lacquer, varnish, or water base material is going to be used as a top coat.
4. Gelled Varnish, can be used when using varnish, lacquer or shellac as a top coat.
iv. Penetrating type of pre-conditioners, this type of pre-conditioned does not sit on the wood , it goes into the wood with chemicals that will fill inside the (wood’s) cell walls. These penetrating chemicals will keep the pigment in the stain floating on top of the wood. Types of pre-conditioners
1. 90% mineral spirits and 10% boiled linseed oil, this works well on pine when using an oil based stain
2. Mineral spirits and oil are two of the ingredients in an oil based stain.
3. Apply liberally, if you see areas that absorb more than the other areas, apply more pre-conditioner.
4. Wait 3 to 5 minutes and wipe excess off and apply stain.
5. If you wait too long the pre-conditioner will not be as affective due to the evaporation of the mineral spirits.
6. For pine you can use the above method and used the pre-conditioner and dye together after the pine has been pre-conditioned.
Sanding Sealer?
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Sealer can be first a film forming coating that is applied to your wood as a seal coat. The mission of the first coat of finish is to lock the whiskers in place so you can sand them off. Some coatings promote themselves as being “self sealing”, you top coat can be used as a sealer coat.
Manufactures produce a varnish and lacquer as being “sanding sealer” which is a softer version of varnish or lacquer. Zinc Sterate has been added to make the sealer coat easier to sand.
If sanding sealer is applied too thick, you will have a very soft finish under a very hard finish and could cause the coating to crack prematurely.
Use a de-waxed shellac as a sealer coat to prevent pine knots from bleeding through your coating. Use de-waxed shellac as a sealer coat when refinishing to prevent “fisheye” (due to wax, silicone, ect)
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NOTE: MANUFACTURES USE WORDS INORDER TO MARKET THEIR PRODUCTS. THE FOLLOWING TERMINALOGY IS BASIC AND YOU SHOULD ALWAYS READ THE LABEL TO SEE WHAT TYPES OF CHEMICALS AND MATERIALS ARE IN THE PRODUCT.
Stain used as a noun, only has pigment and dyes do not. Stains have three basic components
A. Pigment, solid materials that lay on your project, they will settle to the bottom of the can when stored.
B. Binder, material that adheres the pigment to the wood, oils, varnish, lacquer are basis binders
C. Solvents or Carrier, Mineral spirits, naphtha, and petroleum distillates are frequently used in oil base and varnish base stains. Xylene and toluene are used in lacquer stains and are fast drying.
D. The more pigment in the stain the more contrast there will be in an uneven grained wood. Pigment will lodges in the large pores of the wood.
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Dyes are molecules and will dissolve in the proper solvent and never settle to the bottom of a can. Dyes penetrate into the wood and change the entire cell wall. Large and small pores of the wood will nearly be the same color. Types of dyes:
A. Water based, most light fast, easy to use, non toxic (to apply, sand the wood, pre-wet with distilled water, sand w/ 6oo grit {just to knock down the pre-wetting hair} then dye.
B. Oil based, mixed with mineral spirits or lacquer thinner, not as light fast as water based, bit may bleed through lacquer coatings.
C. Alcohol based, made for spraying but my be modified with a retarder (butyl alcohol) Light fast properties very
D. NGR (Non Grain Razing) oil based
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Color changing chemicals (some don’t have a binder, see stains above).
A. UTC (Universal Tinting Colors) {Proline (not compatible with shellac) and Mixol, contain glycol ether and pigment (no binder), compatible with solvent based varnish, urethanes, lacquers, oil base stains, and water base stains. Not compatible with shellac over 10%.
B. Mixols, another type of UTC, contain glycol ether and pigment (no binder), compatible with solvent based varnish, urethanes, lacquers, oil base stains, and water base stains and alcohol products.
C. <!----><!----><!---->Japan<!----><!----> colors, think and heavy concentrated solvent based pigmented material. Compatible with varnishes, lacquers, and oil based stains. Alkyd resin binder (used in the sign painting industry)
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Pore Filling
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A. The purpose of a “grain” filler is to create a closed pore finish. The wood will not have any “texture” that you can feel. If the pore filler is colored it may appear that the open pore grain is “popped”.
B. Types of pore filler (fillers can be applied to raw wood or after a seal coat (spit coat) has been applied. If a seal coat has been applied, the if there is any dye in the filler, it won’t change the non open pore of the wood).
a. Solvent base with Silex, Silex is a quartz rock that is less than likely to shrink than other types of filler. Compatible with shellac or solvent based coatings. Comes in a variety of colors. To change the color of the filler, use Japan Paints, UTCs, Mixols, or oil based stains.
b. Water base filler, any coating can be put on them, comes in a wide variety of colors. Change the color with UTCs or Mixols. Must work quick, use Glycol Ether to extend the working time.
c. Sanding with an oil (Watco oil products if using a oil based top coat) to fill pores. You could use your top coat (reduced) and sand with 400 to 600 grit paper. The sanding dust and top coat will mix and fill the pores. It will give a semi closed pore look.
As you can see you will need to experiement. But this will yeild you a finish that not only makes you proud, but can, perhaps make you money. As I finish I reocord every measurement and store it away in my files. Finishing is fun when the competition uses brown stuff out of the can after many hours of hard work.
I hope this allows you to "figure" out your finishing "schedule" which is made up of your finishing "procedures". There are many book, articles and chat sites like this, but only you will be able to determine what you like. Remember, if the finish makes you happy (or the customer) than you are a winner, and we all want to be winner.
Just an Average Joe that likes to "complete" a woodworking project by having people be amazed at the final product. All I ever say is, "I like what I do and you are special". Finishing is an art that we all can master, once we have perhaps a couple failures under or belt (on cut offs).
Have you ever considered french polishing, what a wonderful finish, not too tuff but Wow
EnjoyJoe
Even a broken clock is correct twice a day...
Good information, thanks a lot.
Bio,
Just practice before you put anything on your project. Now there are many other factors to take into consideration. Sun bleaching, dogs peeing on the corner, too many to count. You do just fine
Joe
Even a broken clock is correct twice a day...
Yes,
I agree. That was a lot of clear, concise information. Hats off to you!
Lee
Ha, the dog one would be interesting :)
Have you tried Groove Wood Stain for poplar, if so how where your results.
Rusty
What? I couldn't find any web presence of such a manufacturer of wood stain. They must be keeping a really low profile, or you have the name wrong.
I would be pretty hesitant to use stains from a really low profile company where consistency could be in doubt, as well as future distribution. I'd probably be more likely to make my own wiping stains.
Yea, really it is sold at woodworkers supply, woodworker.com under the name of groove wood stain item # 124-112. They claim it eliminates the green tint and blotching left by other stains on poplar. I doubt all of this but ya never know.
thanks
I have not. But if you are experiencing a green tint of popular, you may want to try applying a dye (on a test board) first. Popular is usually used as a sub-strate since it receives paint very well. Joe
Even a broken clock is correct twice a day...
I love the idea of the project, however it looks Photoshopped to the max
What looks photshoped?
It looks digitized, thats all i am saying. Look at it closely. The picture looks like a cgi.
Edited 6/14/2008 11:44 pm ET by Sean2112
Attached is a picture of a sewing center I recently built for my wife. I'm a hobbyist and spent about a month of Saturday mornings on the finish. The project is a mix of Cherry solid and Cherry veneer mdf.
I followed Jeff Jewits formula for the finish and couldn't be happier.
Daddyman,
Very nice work. I'm sure the misses will enjoy that warm tone and great color. I hope you wrote down your fininish process, because by the looks of it you be finishing more pieces in the future.
JoeJoe
Even a broken clock is correct twice a day...
VERY nice, can you point me to the article you read to get the mixture?
The finish is not just a mixture. It is a process. Starts with a dye stain, then a gell stain, then shellac, followed by lots of rubbing with various compounds. When I was looking into finishing this project, I ended up buying two of Jeff Jewitt's books and found the directions in one of them. (I'm at the office so I can't tell you which book it was in) I highly recommend both books if you are going to be doing more projects. I purchased:
Great Wood Finishes: A Step-by-Step Guide to Beautiful Results by Jeff Jewitt
and
Hand-Applied Finishes by Jeff Jewitt
Both are great additions to my library of woodworking reference materials.
Got it, off to Books a Million today :) Thanks for the information.
Glad I could help.
With so many other fantastic woodworkers on this site, a puttering hobbyist like me can rarely offer much to the discussion. I read the site daily, but don't find that I can often add to the wisdom found in the posts.
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