Advice on cordless driver or impact drvr
We’re on the verge, finally, of building the Ipe deck. Since we’ll have a zillion screws to put in, I’ve gotten the go-ahead to buy a good, yeah even excellent, battery-powered driver. Objective would be to get away from the heavy cordless drill, use something specifically designed for driving, with a pretty long-lived battery (lithium ion?) and a comfortable fit for a medium-sized hand (my hands are bigger than most women’s, but not a manly size, LOL).
Looks like the impact drivers are quite a bit more expensive, so first I need to decide whether impact is important enough to spend $$ on, then decide what’s the best reasonably-priced pick in whichever category. Please share your advice, experiences (good and bad), help me out here. I know nothing about these little gizmos. Thanks.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Well, if you're building a deck and driving lots of screws, you'll probably want a clutch to ensure that they all get sunk evenly (assuming that the wood densitiy is the same throughout).
The only impact drivers on the market with a clutch are the Panasonic - and only the NiCad version has a decent amount of settings. I believe that both have a button which when pressed, allows the screw to be sunken a half a turn. Handy.
That said, you probably want a cordless drill/driver. Are you securing the decking from above or below? Weight is more of an issue when working overhead. My hands are probably smaller than average but I like a larger handle. I have Bosch's 14.4 Brute Tough Compact driver and have no complaints except for the bit storage just above the back of the battery - a bit stored there always scrapes my arm somehow (minor). I like the balance and features. The weight is a little heavy but certainly tolerable. I've also used Dewalt's 14.4 XRP and Makita's 14.4 LiOn drill. Both are very nice tools. The Makita has a built-in LED which is helpful for when you are working into dusk.
While battery life is certainly a factor, don't overlook charging time. Some batteries (Ridgid) charge in about 20 min. whereas most others still take an hour.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi, Chris. At the rate we're going, we will be working into dusk! This has gotta get done before hunting season, or there's going to be "marital discord"!!
We're working from above, but I'll be doing the bulk of the drilling and driving. My right hand is just toast -- tendinitis in a couple of fingers I suspect -- so anything that lessens the amount of grip required will help.
Is the impact style a useful feature beyond construction uses? I seem to remember a long-ago thread where people were surprised how much they liked using impact drivers even when doing "normal" woodworking. Your opinion??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
We've got 3 Makita 14.4V impact drivers in the shop. Don't drive screws with anything else. It's a simple, no nonsense tool. Forward or back, there's not much that goes wrong. I'm sure if you do this upcoming job with any good impact driver you'll never drive screws any other way, in the shop or outside.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
FG-If you have tendonitis, you might want to think twice about using an impact driver. I have it in both elbows and using any kind of impact tool for very long has me loading up on the ibuprofen. - lol
"If you have tendonitis, you might want to think twice about using an impact driver. I have it in both elbows and using any kind of impact tool for very long has me loading up on the ibuprofen." I know what you mean, Dave. I don't think these little drivers are like a jackhammer though <grin>. Back in the early '90's I had one of the worst cases of wrist tendinitis the doc and physical therapists had ever seen (tend to push the limits, drive impulse is too strong when I'm working!). That taught me a huge lesson, as I was off work for 8 weeks, and was wearing rigid splints on my hands for 2 of those weeks, immobilization was the objective.
Am already taking the max of generic Aleve, so will have to make do if anything flares up. Ice is my friend. My understanding about these drivers is that the impact kicks in when/if the screw gets balky. A micro-jackhammer!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have a Panasonic 12v impact driver and I think it is less fatiguing to use. Less strain on the wrist and arms. You do not have to control the torque like a drill/driver, it does not try to twist out of you hand. Also, you need less pressure to keep the bit in the screw head. BTW I highly recommend 12 volt Panasonic products.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Would that I could afford the Panasonic, but they're just tooooo pricey. It does appear that they are the top dawg in impact drivers, but beyond what I can justify.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Truth be told, I prefer using my Dewalt 9.6V impact for driving screws over my drill. My friends who have tried my impact seem relatively unimpressed, leading me to believe that I like the tool mostly because it makes lots of noise. Maybe the fact that the only type of screws we drive are Robertson is a factor, where the impact feature isn't needed to keep the bit engaged with the screw. If you go for the impact, make sure you wear good hearing protection (which could hinder communication).
Right hand's toast? Sounds like a good excuse to practice your left-hand coordination!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Well, Chris, I'm going for the Makita (2-pc combo, plus treated myself to the radio), it should ship tomorrow (I hope!). Just have to settle on the type of screw, leaning heavily toward GRK trim-heads, stainless. Just have to find a local distributor, everyone was closed today.
You shouldn't beat up on your old man like that!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
With the contest for sales going on between the "Work Glove" manufacturers, several have added anti-vibration features to their line. Great for extended sanding or an impact driver and tender tenons. Since I was doing decks when cordless was a gimmick, my preference is a corded drill for the pilot hole and a pistol grip 3/8-inch, air impact for the screws. As I remember, it was from HF and <$30.00.
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice...'till you can do it right the first time.
jamie, i had the makita 9.6 long time ago, then graduated to the 18 volt nicad makita and it is good and tough, but more recently got panasonic drill and impact driver package, lithium ion, and i much prefer the new one. i recently got the festool c12 drill/screwdriver . . . and i still prefer using the panasonic lithium ion. i think the set was $379 or so, but don't really remember.
it would be a great combo for your project; drill the pilot hole with the drill and screw the screw with the impact driver.
Edited 9/1/2008 12:10 am by stpatrick
Oooo, the Panasonic does seem to be a good one, but I'm not sure I can stretch the budget to nearly $400! I've taken a glimpse at the Makita 18V two-tool kits, refurbished they're only $200, new around $250 at Amazon. They have a very fast charge, too, which is helpful.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Definately impact. Panasonic is very very good, Makita is also very good. Even in Ipe 14.4 is all you will need with power to spare and you won't have the extra weight to heft all day.
Dewalts are chump tools for the "awl ma tools is yella" folks, mouth breathing inbred sheep fornicating types. Bad batteries, bad chargers, cheesy gears and crappy chucks.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Don,
I challenged my uncle and his Makita 14.4V LiOn impact to a "screw-off" against my Dewalt 9.6V NiCad, seeing which driving (10) 3" screws into a 4x4 the fastest, each drill equipped with a freshly charged battery. Mine won. To level the playing field, we traded tools and my Dewalt in his hands still won.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Back away from the sheep, close your mouth and breathe through your nose. I'ts too late to do anything about the rest.
The Dewalt 9.6 impact has an rpm of 2000 and a max torque of 625 in-lbs and 2600 impacts per minute.
The Makita 14.4 Li-I has an rpm of 2400, a max torque of 1240 in-lbs and 3200 impacts per minute.
Take the Makita out of reverse and try it again.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Wow. How do you really feel?
"Dewalts are chump tools for the "awl ma tools is yella" folks, mouth breathing inbred sheep fornicating types. Bad batteries, bad chargers, cheesy gears and crappy chucks."My question is why hasn't anyone made a corded impact driver for the occasional user? Ponying up $300-400 for a cordless tool that will get used in unpredictable frequency only to have it lose umph after half a dozen screws and have to replace a battery in 4-5 years is outside my budget. Heck, you can buy a decent corded drill for $60-100 about anywhere. Hmmm. I think I may have answered my question for manufacturer's perspective.I'm ready to go to Harbor Freight and buy a corded impact wrench and outfit it with a 1/4" magnetic socket. How far bad can you go for $59.99? "All maw tules ain't orange." http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45252 or $69.99 http://pepboys.shoplocal.com/pepboys/default.aspx?action=detail&flashbrowse=y&storeid=2314792&rapid=580486&pagenumber=2&listingid=-2091136795&ref=%2fpepboys%2fdefault.aspx%3faction%3dbrowsepageflash%26storeid%3d2314792%26pagenumber%3d2%26rapid%3d580486%26prvid%3dPepBoys-080831Edited 9/1/2008 2:24 pm ET by byhammerandhand
Edited 9/1/2008 6:30 pm ET by byhammerandhand
If you have air there are a lot of impact choices from 1/4" drive on up. Even the best ones are really not too expensive.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Black and Decker and Ryobi offer inexpensive cordless impact drivers that look pretty decent. Corded impact drivers are available and offer lots of torque but usually have 1/2 drives for sockets.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Dewalts are chump tools for the "awl ma tools is yella" folks, mouth breathing inbred sheep fornicating types.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Now, that was funny!
Definitely get the impact driver -- it'll drive more screws, and faster, than a drill/driver ever would. I used mine regularly for both construction and WW applications. One of the great things about impact drivers is the clutch mechanism will keep you from shearing off the screw heads as you drive them -- I've done that a number of times with a regular drill/driver but never with the impact driver. Plus, you don't have to worry about cam out with the screws you're driving as well. I have the 12v Makita and the battery outlasts the 18v Makita cordless drill I have. If you go with a 14.4v LiOn battery you'll have a plenty of power and lightweight to boot. I have the Makita so I can't speak from experience as to the other brands, but I've been completely satisfied with mine.
Edited 9/1/2008 5:41 pm ET by pzaxtl
"One of the great things about impact drivers is the clutch mechanism..."
Pmichael,
As far as I know, only the Panasonic has a clutch. Am I behind in the times?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
My makita has a clutch. Granted, you can't set it by rotating a collar like you can with a drill/driver, but drive a screw with an impact driver and when the screw will no longer thread in, the clutch on the driver will slip just as with a regular drill/driver.
Regards,
Pm
"As far as I know, only the Panasonic has a clutch. Am I behind in the times?"
Chris - My dewalt cordless 18V Ni-Cd has a clutch - they just call it a "drill/hammer drill" instead of "impact driver". To my knowledge, that's the same thing.
"they just call it a "drill/hammer drill" instead of "impact driver". To my knowledge, that's the same thing."
Nope. Different as night & day. A hammer drill goes in & out while going around. An impact driver just goes around (no in & out). The rotational force in an inpact driver is applied by an hammer/anvil configuration as opposed to gears, so it's more like putting a wrench on a stuck nut and beating the handle with a hammer than just pushing on the handle.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Perhaps, but this is indeed labeled a hammer drill, but it definitely does not oscillate in and out (even a little). Wouldn't surprise me if the manufacturers decided to muddle the terminology.
The hammering force on a hammer drill is in line with the chuck and is to facilitate driving masonry bits. It will not drive fasteners properly any more than an impact driver will drill masonry holes properly.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
I don't doubt your assessment of a real power hammer, but that's not what's happening with a lot of these tools sold as "hammer drills". The impact is in the rotational direction.
Here is a portion of the owners manual for the Dewalt 18V hammer/drill/driver.
Operation as a Hammerdrill
Some models have the Hammerdrill feature. To utilize the hammer feature of your tool, rotate the collar to align the hammer symbol withthe arrow shown in Figure 3. The hammering position is for hammer drilling in soft concrete and masonry such as brick, mortar and soft ceramics.
Here is an exploded view of the DW 18v hammerdrill, note the mechanism imparts a linear impact.
Here is an exploded view of the DW 18v impact driver, note the anvil and spring loaded hammer impart a rotary impact.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
As an added note, while the hammerdrill mechanism is applying whacks to the end of the shaft the chuck is mounted on the shaft itself does not move in and out of the drill housing.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
That would explain my confusion - I've used the hammer function quite a bit, and there is no visible in/out movement of the bit that I can see. Thanks for the link to the manuals - mine long ago went to the place where one-at-a-time socks and drill bits go.
But if this is the case, why would you want to use what I assume is the equivalent of an air-powered impact wrench to drive screws? What is the advantage over the ordinary drill with a clutch?
"But if this is the case, why would you want to use what I assume is the equivalent of an air-powered impact wrench to drive screws? What is the advantage over the ordinary drill with a clutch?"
The advantages are huge. Fewer busted screws, more torque to drive screws better, the bit stays in the screw better, fewer stripped out heads, less wrist strain. . . . Once you try it - you won't go back.
The only disadvantage is these things have so much driving power with so little "feedback" to the user, it's easy to overdrive fasteners. Takes a bit of getting used to. As much as I like using the ID, I reach for the clutched drill to do stuff like drive pocket screws where it's hard to keep an eye on the screw head to monitor progress.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I'm surprised you've experienced fewer busted screws - I'd think the impact would transfer enough energy in a short enough time span to break a hardened screw a lot easier than the continuous torque applied by a drill.
Not sure why, but my experience is fewer busted screws. Maybe the impacts get the screw to turn rather than bind, so the force never builds up enough to torque and break it.
I remember a physics experiment designed to demonstrate Newton's laws and mass. You suspend a weight from a thin string, and then tie a thicker string to the bottom. If you pull slowly on the lower string, the upper string will break. If you give the lower string a sharp tug, the lower string will break but not the upper one, even tho' the upper string is weaker. My guess is something like that is happening with the impact driven screws.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
It is the just the opposite of what you stated. The torque/twisting of the screws is what snaps them. Impact drivers use a very small quick rotation of the screw not continuous torque therefore less screw failure.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
"It is the just the opposite of what you stated. The torque/twisting of the screws is what snaps them. Impact drivers use a very small quick rotation of the screw not continuous torque therefore less screw failure."
Yeah, but from a physics standpoint that doesn't make a lot of sense unless the driver is imparting considerably less torque than the drill. Failure is caused by exceeding the strain limit of the particular material, and in the case of brittle materials (like hardened screws), vibration can cause stress fractures, which considerably lowers the strain threshold for breakage.
That said, though, I'm an engineer and have the attitude that empirical proof beats theory every time.
Dk , I myself had the same opinion as you before I had the chance to use one. What Mike just posted is spot on . Now I use the drills to pre - drill and impacts for screwing. I am in the process off building some jambs and entry doors for my home and needed to run some 4"1/2 screws through the bottom of the sill {2" thick} up into the jamb legs. I predrilled as far as I could ,about 2"1/2 and used impact to send them home , no cam out on philips head and much less pushing then a drill. If you get a chance try one.
Tom
I've an air powered impact wrench (designed for removing stubborn things off of cars, not woodworking). If I can figure out how to attach a driver bit to it, I'll give it a go. Should be reasonably easy to dial down the power with a air pressure regulator.
They make some very nice smaller air powered impacts.
The one on the left is a 3/8 drive butterfly style impact by Ingersoll Rand, its the hot ticket for big lag screws. The middle one is a 1/4 drive impact by IR, good for everything the cordless models do. The one the right is a non-impact dedicated screwdriver by IR, very fast, smooth, quiet, and positive for general purpose driving up to about #6x2" screws in hardwood. You can get all three for about what a good battery impact runs.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Dgreen , Great idea, I have some of those smaller ones as well as the larger automotive type. I need to give that a shot. Thanks
Tom
I love my battery powered tools too but in a shop with air it just makes more sense not to put the wear and tear on them. I save them for when I'm away from air or power. Air drills are a great value too, they are lighter than their electric counterparts and fit into tighter spaces.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
I bought my adapter from McFeely's. It is 3/8-inch square drive, and accepts a wire detent, hex driver bit.
If you choose not to pre-drill shank holes, be sure to spring for the "Impact" grade driver bits.
BTW...I have long since enjoyed the unencumbered freedom of cordless drills. My favorite one being the DeWalt 14.4, a good balance of power:weight ratio.
Arlington, Texas (The dash in Dallas-Fort Worth)
Practice...'till you can do it right the first time.
dk,
By using adaptors with your air impact you should be able to try it. Adaptors shown on attached is 1/2" to 3/8", then 3/8" to 1/4", than a 1/4" socket and finally the driver bit. You probably have them all in your tool box. The tip of your air impact will then be heavier!!! LoL
Best,
Serge.- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org moving to
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.spaces.live.com
So, how to compare impact to drill/driver as far as size and power?
I find I'm changing batteries a bit often with a 18V lithium
1.5 amp drill/driver.
Would a 1.5 amp impact run considerably longer? Or should I
step up to 3 amp hour? I find it hard to get a clear picture of working strength on this.
An impact driver is the way to go try out the Hitachi, it got a good review!
I recently bought a Hitachi cordless driver and am pleased but the battery lief is a bit short for prolonged use so I think my next purchase will be an impact model.
good luck to you I hear Ipe can be a tough wood to work.
Chaim
Forest, What everyone else said. I use the Makita daily. I would counterbore with drill through the decking and screw with impact. You will be impressed. Good luck.
Tom.
Dear Jaime,
I just completed an ipe deck ( 650 sq'). God bless you! The weapon of choice for me and the guys that work for me is the compact (Black & White) Makita 18V Lithium-ion drill/driver. There has been a lot of discussion about impact drivers vs. drill/drivers. For me, using them 8 hrs a day, I'll always take the drill/driver if for no other reason the lack of noise. Under hard use, like driving lags, a battery will drain in about 20 minutes or so, however the batteries come with a "15" minute charger which is really more like 10 minutes on my guns, plus it plays a cute little song to boot. I have had my gun for about two years now, and under daily, constant use it is a winner. Here are some links:
1) Combo : http://www.tools-plus.com/makita-lct300w.html
2) Drill/ driver with 3 batteries $188.00... http://www.tools-plus.com/makita-bdf452hw.html
Oh, before I forget. I am not sure how you are planning on installing that Ipe, but if you are looking to blind fasten, we just switched to the "EB-Ty" system and LOVE it. We always have used the "Deck Master" which works but brings tedium to a new level. The Eb-Ty at least can be installed by one person, from the top. For 3/4" material make sure that you order the EB-Ty "mini". "EB-Ty" says that you can just zip their screws through the Ipe, but I always pre drill as the Ipe tends to split. Just order the Ipe "pre kerfed" as cutting several hundred biscuits into Ipe is a drag of Major proportions.. Good luck and we will be looking for pics!
Eb Ty: http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/EBM-/Eb-Ty-reg-Mini-Jr-Hidden-Deck-Fasteners-Screws
One last hint: It is a LOT easier with TWO guns. One drills , one drives. Good opportunity for another tool!
Best,
John
Edited 9/1/2008 9:10 am ET by Jmartinsky
Hi, John. Sounds like the Makita will win out, probably the 2-piece combo. Surely there's a naysayer out there somewhere to make this discussion interesting! LOL!
We were going to use EbTy and do the biscuit slots ourselves, especially since the wood went up almost 30% in price this year, but after talking (cyber-wise) to Piffin of Breaktime -- he's installed a number of big Ipe decks in a climate similar to ours -- we're going to go simple and use GRK screws, 2 in each joist, and be done with it. Our funky little house hardly demands invisible fasteners, and the smaller GRK's will look fine.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
OK, I'll be the naysayer :)
I have the Makita Hammer Drill/Impact Driver Combo kit and I love it. It seems like the impact driver will drive screws all day and having one tool that is optimized for drilling and one that's optimized for driving, makes both last longer.
BUT, the combo kit only comes with one battery per tool, so if you're using both, you can't have one in the charger getting re-juiced.
PS, I got mine from Coastal Tool and their customer service was spectacular.
Hi, Quick. We can use a different drill if we need to charge a battery in mid-stream. I just ordered the 2-piece combo kit (drill/driver and impact driver) from CPO Makita, via Amazon. It's the refurbished kit, I'm gonna trust 'em, saves us about $65!
I'm pretty pleased with this situation, because it gets me started on converting my cordless tools from Ryobi non-lithium to Makita lithium. I can pass the Ryobi's on to hubby, he can abuse them to his heart's content, and I'll lock away the Makita's. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm letting him use the Bosch 12" CMS to build the deck, then I'll sell it and enjoy using the Makita SCMS that's waiting in the wings.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You are wise Forest, I just picked up the 18 V /1.5 amp makita today to keep in the shop. One deck will not wear out that impact driver nor the batteries. You might want to pick up some impact rated tips as standard tip will not stand up. One thing I do not think has been mentioned is the comfort factor of these impacts, great ergonomics, small , light and powerful. There will be a smile on your face as the screws seem to go in effortlessly. Lots of luck hiding it from hubby.
Tom.
FG,
I've had my Makita for a while and used it in several situations both inside and out--including making a ramp and deck (3/4 treated plywood decking on treated 2x and 4x framing) for my then wheelchair bound father. As usual, you are right on track with both tools and materials!
Whiel this doesn't give you the convenient excuse to get a new woodshop tool, professional deck builders generally don't use cordless (or corded, for that matter) impact drivers like you find at home centers. They use a stand-up dedicated screw machine that drives screws that are bought on a roll (somewhat like buying sticks of nails for an air hammer).
Most rental shops rent these devices, and your knees and back will thank you. Drilling/driving several hundred (or several thousand, depending on the size of the deck) on your hands and knees is a real killer. If you decide to go this route, I'd highly suggest spending the extra $20 on knee pads and a weightlifter's belt.
Hi, Dkell. I think I've seen those screw machines. I think I'll stick with the small tool though. Each hole has to be pre-drilled (the Ipe part anyway, probably not the joist underneath), and I'll be using GRK stainless steel screws, type to be determined, so I don't think the screw machine would really work. Thanks though! At least I know they're rentable if and when a different type of project would benefit.
Oh, BTW, knee pads are stock equipment at our house! And I'm think that for many/most of the boards, we may be able to stand on the ground in front of the new plank and drive from there. Wouldn't that be nice?! The height off the ground is just about right for being able to do it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sounds like you've a favorable geometry situation that isn't usual (being able to stand on the ground and drill/drive the screws). FWIW, the pro screw machines use a lot of different types of screws, depending on the application, and among them are SS 316 deck screws (though you can also get galvanized, ceramic coated, etc...).
In general, I'd certainly agree that Ipe needs pre-drilled screw holes, the stuff is really, really, REALLY hard. That said, a lot of decks get built with the stuff these days, and the pros have found a way around pre-drilling the holes by using smaller gauge screws. On a deck surface, there's really no structural reason to use #8s - all you have to have is something to hold the boards down.
It's appearing that the GRK trim-head screws would fit the bill, not break off too often, and provide excellent quality. Two of the deck-building gurus I'm corresponding with have convinced me. I'm thinking 2.5" might be best with the 5/4 x 6" Ipe.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, the price difference is probably not the guiding factor (there's not much difference between 1-1/2" and 2-1/2"), but I would go with something shorter. You really don't need more than about 1/2" of screw thread into the treated pine joists (assuming that's what you're using), and going with 1-1/2" screws will cut down on the amount of drilling and driving, as well as reducing the likely hood of missing vertical and having the screw end exit the side of the joist. If you can't get to the underneath, that may be of little concern, though.
Remember, also, that you will want to counter-sink the holes in the Ipe. Though Ipe will shrink in thickness considerably less than treated SYP, it will still do so to some extent, and flush-mounted screws will be proud of the surface after a year or so of weathering.
Thanks for the tip about the shrinkage, I didn't think about/realize that.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have used those (SS trim screws) for fastening ipe boards I couldn't reach from underneath with the DeckMaster system. I still had to pre-drill, and I had to countersink the heads, tiny tho' they are, since if I drilled a hole large enough to get the heads to sink, the hole was oversized for holding purposes. You may get away without predrilling for the shank, but not for the head. And only if you're not within a few inches of the end of a board.
My guess is that you'll end up predrilling 'cause, as slow as it is, it's faster than trying to skip it, what with the busted, bent or stripped screws you'll be dealing with otherwise. And hey, it's only a couple of hours extra work, right?
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Edited 9/2/2008 2:40 pm ET by MikeHennessy
Hi, Mike. I'm not going to try to avoid pre-drilling, too many experienced people have said "Just do it!" Two of the experienced Ipe installers I've corresponded with have a technique of using a drill bit just barely bigger than the screw itself to make room for that small trim-head. I've seen pictures of a couple of the decks, they're not shabby <understatement here>.
Take a look at these PHEinox SS R4 screws, tell me what you think -- have you ever used them? Aside from pre-drilling for the shank (a given), they say the heads will self-countersink "in the hardest woods." They wouldn't give as clean a look at the trim-head, but our funky house doesn't demand that anyway. I kinda like the bigger head, seems like more holding power?
Just got a shipping notice from FedEx, so tools are on their way, a friend is checking at Tacoma Screw to see if they carry the GRK's. Hubby's doing some work on a drain line and some wall repair that have to be done prior to building the deck. It'll all come together soon I hope!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I haven't used those particular screws -- they don't look like trim-heads to me. I can pretty much guaranty they won't sink in ipe.
I've used the "just barely bigger" trick. It works pretty well, but I'm worried that, as the wood moves over time, it just won't be able to keep things tight. If the hole is big enough to let the head slip in while driving, what's to stop it from pulling through when the wood moves?
One thing I haven't tried, but may work well, is to use a Fuller bit to pre-drill. The tapered hole would allow the trim head to sink, but not get pulled through by subsequent wood movement -- I think. Maybe ;-) (Edit: Look here -> http://www.wlfuller.com/ They also have sets made to predrill and plug ipe. Who knew?)
Why not pick up a piece of ipe from someone doing a deck, or from a lumber yard, play around with it and get a feel for the stuff before getting started?
Oh, and eat your Wheaties -- it'll give you a real workout horsing it around to build the deck!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Edited 9/3/2008 7:50 am ET by MikeHennessy
While I have not built a deck with Ipe (well I did put about half of my Sisters deck boards on her Ipe Deck) I have built a table of this stuff. Oh MY god what a mess and heavy to boot. What ever you do where a mask when cutting this stuff. It is the worst saw dust I have ever encountered in my life. The wood makes great outdoor projects but the dust is nuts and it is very heavy. It makes teak look like it is pine.
I did use some SS trim screws and even the little tiny heads they had if I did not counter sink them would cause really tiny (say 1/8 to 1/4") cracks around the head. They did not seam to split the wood even when pretty close to the ends but about half the time I got these small cracks. Some of them did not appear until a few days latter. I wish I had counter sunk all the screws (I did countersink them on the top).
On the plus side the work resist everything including fire. The table was less then 10 feet from a house that burnt to the ground (and only about 20' from a garage that had a cars gas tank explode in it) the deck it was sitting on was toast but the table only needed cleaning up. Of course the table is only about 30" dia and it still needs two people to pick up!
Anyway let us know what you use and post photos. I need to build two small decks next spring (say 5by8) and a staircase down from them to the patio. So I am interested in anything you may learn on this one.
Doug M
No, they' not trim-heads, they are the other style I'm considering. If I can find them locally, I can give 'em a try. Interesting idea about using the tapered Fullers -- that place is amazing, yes they have absolutely everything. I wonder, though, if those tapered drills would be strong and durable enough.
Well, I'll get a call into GRK this morning, since they're on the east side of the continent, see what they have to say. May have to order whatever countersink from Fuller, as it would have to be a tiny one for those trim-head screws if they are the final choice.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
" I wonder, though, if those tapered drills would be strong and durable enough."
I use 'em for normal woodworking-type pilot holes and countersinking. They're plenty tough, and the tapered holes help the screws grab better.
I think I just talked myself into this on the next project! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike , They will work just fine, I have installed a few IPE decks with 3/4 up to 8/4 decking . Drilling with a tapered drill is exactly what I meant earlier in this thread, though I used the term counter bore. I agree with you 100 % on the reasoning for this procedure. One note, keep some spare bits handy, with that much drilling your bound to break a few.
Tom.
>>The only impact drivers on the market with a clutch are the Panasonic - and only the NiCad version has a decent amount of settings. I believe that both have a button which when pressed, allows the screw to be sunken a half a turn. Handy.I have the Panasonic, NiCad with digital clutch, and love it.
Yes, the button that allows the screw to be sunken half a turn is handy. There is a wide range of other clutch settings too. These allow lots of control in matching fasteners to materials.One complaint is the LED indicators. Very hard to read in sunlight.
Not a huge issue, but annoying if you need to switch fasteners or materials often. It is a little heavier than some of the newer lithium ion tools, which may be an issue when drilling overhead for long periods.I bought it for about $250 on Amazon.
Listen, I think you need to know that "Jaime" is a horse lady of note. Those are tough, very tough. (;)Philip Marcou
Huh? I'm not sure what you mean - was this reply attached to the wrong thread?
I didn't quite get it either, Dkell. Hmmmm, he must have been replying to a different person. Philip, 'splain the joke, eh?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
A coupla years ago FHB did a test on cordless drills and the Panasonic won hands down based on number of screws it could drive without a charge, etc etc. even though it was 14.4 up against 18s.
So I dug deep to find the money, and have never had a moment of regret. Came with 2 batteries, average recharge 20-25 minutes. I haven't yet been able to outrun the batteries. (A major hardware / tool distrbutor up in Canada told me that Panasonic makes a lot of the other vendors batteries - but keeps the best for themselves, and I believe him...)
It's bounced from 15 feet to the ground and from 9 feet up to concrete more than once, got mostly submerged once, and just keeps on ticking. One of the best tools I ever invested in.
Reasonably light.
Impact on the tendinitis is a killer. I have an electric one I use when I absolutely have to, and am reasonably ambidextrous so switch back and forth... but it still hursts like hell for a week after any project requiring over an hour - especially if overhead where the arms take more of it, and I can't brace on my body.
There are some "spax" screws that I have used in ipe that have some weird wavy shape on the threads and apparently they "slice into wood without pre drilling". Whatever the science, they worked very well. Don't know if they come in stainless. Not cheap but were a major time saver.
Good luck !
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Makita 18v...Jimmy
The most important point here is that we do expect pictures!
Before, in progress, final, party!
Pete
Hi Forestgirl,
I own several drill/drivers from 9.6V to 18V and I like them very much (no impact though). Working with them is great when driving, lets say ±100 screws. I guess you will use 3" or 3½" screws and this is hard on the batteries. Remember, they don't like getting hot.
For a whole deck, I personnaly would go with an electric VS drill. When you drive screws and you can feel the heat from the drill/driver casing, I believe it's too late, there is some damage already done to the battery. And they do get hot after driving several long screws.
That said, get one... for the pleasure and for other jobs.
Best,
Serge
- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org moving to
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.spaces.live.com
Edited 9/1/2008 6:43 pm ET by bricofleur
The Makita lithium ion battery impact driver that I bought would be my recomendation. It is very light in weight but also very powerful and the impact feature would probably come in handy driving screws into ipe. I bought the kit that included the driver also so there are two batteries available for both tools and it comes with a rapid charger also.
We get to soon oldt und to late schmart
"so first I need to decide whether impact is important enough to spend $$ on"
One word -- Yes. This is one of those tools that "makes the light go on". You wonder how you lived so long without one.
I have a Makita and a DeWalt, but both are pre-Lithium Ion days. Post over at Breaktime and you'll get a ton of responses.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Hi, Mike. I'm looking forward to trying the Makita out. I posted here deliberately, because I wantd to know how woodworkers feel about the usefullness of the impact driver in the shop.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think you will wonder how you got along without it! You can get an adapter for 1/4 and 3/8 drive sockets for it that extends its usefulness even farther. Screws, lag bolts, hose clamps, you name it.
The most used battery powered tool in my shop.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
I use mine way more than the drill. My philosophy: Drills are for making holes, IDs are for driving fasteners. Period.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I have a Panasonic set, a Makita Lithium set, a standard Makita set and a Dewalt drill. All are cordless. I opted for the 14 volt in each instance because of the weight issue. After using an impact, I wont drive screws without it. I prefer the Panasonic over my others, but the handle is a bit small for me and it's easy to hit the reverse switch. Annoying, but not a problem. Unlike the Makita, you select when the light is turned on. I like the clutch on the drill and the three impact setting on the driver. To be fair, I very much like my Makita too. The newer set includes and impact drill, so it can do its fair share of work too. It goes with me on the road, while I keep the Panasonic as my shop toy. The Dewalt has been a fine tool. I liked its Jacobs keyless drill chuck better than the others, but the batteries are going south and for a little more than I would pay for two new ones, I could replace it.
If I had to drive a lot of screws, I would consider switching to my sheet rock driver, possibly with the depth gauge cover removed. However, an impact might still be preferred. They are hard to beat.
Thanks for your take on things, dejure. I hope the Makita does the trick. The instructions for the GRK SS FinTrim screws say they should be driven at half-speed, but I wonder if that isn't mainly the case when you've not pre-drilled.
I could have used the impact driver today when I was remounting a piece of 2x6" Trex (yuck, I know) out at the barn where I train. Since I only needed a few screws, I picked up the cheap square-drive singles at Ace Hardware. Honestly thought I was going to bung a couple up bad enough to not work using a standard driver.
I hate cheap fasteners!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I believe you will be quite happy with the Makita. I buy my deck screws by the case, so have run my share. I've noticed that a cordless shines at removing screws. It's lower speed tends to strip screws far less often. The impact seems to go even farther in this direction. You don't have to put nearly as much pressure on the driver.I like the saying "I can't afford cheap." That certainly applies to fastening hardware and the drive bits. I buy the big box store cases of deck screws that accept square drive, Phillips or the specialty combination (Phillips and square drive). Out of the several cases I've bought, I've only broken one, maybe two screws. As well, the bits that come with the case can last through an entire case (I forget how many pounds that is, but the box is roughly 12x12x10).I also use a lot of drywall screws for projects. I burn up the Dewalt bits like they are going out of style. I bought a small box of Bosch tips and they are so far superior they cannot be compared. They seem more inclined to break than to round over. The biggest problem I've had with them is getting them to let go of screws. Hey, I needed something to whine about.
I am glad you have good luck with the Bosch bits, I am not that fond of them. I bought a bunch last year and I have broke 3 or 4 of them doing very little work in the last 9 months or so. They have broke when screwing 2X4s together and other stuff like that. Heck I broke one screwing a 1 5/8" screw into a 1X2 connected to a 2X4 (all new soft junk wood). It may be my batch but I am not impressed. I do love my Bosch driver (the little guy) and my Bosch sabre saw but I am disappointed in the bits. I may have to bring that up to the Bosch guy this weekend if he is at the expo (he was last year, that is when I got the little Bosch driver)
Doug M
Does Panasonic make a 15.6V impact driver? I have their 15.6V drill, and its a winner.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
They make a superb combo Impact/Drill/Driver.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
My set is the 14.4 volt system. My friend bought the combo and that's what inspired me to buy my set. However, I use them more than he so opted to have the drill and driver separate. When drilling and driving it often is more convenient to have both.
Well guys, I used it last night to "deconstruct" an old set of open shelves with rusty 2.5" (or 3"?) screw in a bunch of 2x6's, wow did it work great! I'm sold, definitely sold!
FG,
FG, if I may ask what was or is the reason that you used Ipe for the deck compared to Pressure Treaded or the new composed (plastic) boards. And in what price class do there fit in. Like 1, 2, 3.
Hilmar
Our decision came down to three possibilities: Cedar (ubiquitous in the Great Northwest), composite (Trex), or Ipe. Cedar was eliminated because we want the deck to last longer than the last one. Trex was going to take much more framework, as it would have to be on 16" centers (if I'm remembering correctly). Also, our house -- humble as it is (read: funky) -- is located in a wooded area and I just couldn't see plastic boards surrounding it.
So, we settled on Ipe. 24" centers. Lasts for a very, very, very long time without being sealed or painted. The price went up at least 25% between the beginning of the year and last month, when we finally bought it. We're using 5/4 x 6" boards (most people use 1x4's). They ran about $3.25/linear foot. Deck is in the neighborhood of 400 square feet, and the Ipe cost around $2700 (rough numbers).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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