I have a Stanley 16′ tape (30-986) that has 1/32″ markings in the first 12″ and 1/16″ after that. If I need more precision, I use one of my machinest scales.
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Check out http://www.fastcap.com/press.asp?page=procarp_pix.
They might have what you are looking for. I bought the Flat Back tape at my local Woodcraft store.
If you don't need to measure over 18 inches, you can check out the Incra T-Rules at http://hartvilletool.com/product/10841.
They allow you to mark accurately to 1/64 on an inch. Woodcraft also sell them but I think that Hartville Tool will be a better price.
I use a stanley Fat Max 25' tape for most carpintry measurements, it has an amazing stand out (11' before collapsing) which is very usefull. I also have a couple of the Fastcap tapes. These are the perfect tapes for cabinetry. The model I use the most has a coating on the blade that allows you to write on it using a pencil. I transfer my story stick marks onto the tape. It has finer, high contrast markings which are a lot easier to accurately read. The first foot is marked with 1/32" after that it is 1/16. I can still very, very accurately mark 1/32's with no 1/32 mark. It is half way between the two 1/16th marks! And a 1/64" is just a little bit over to the side of the 1/16" mark; sort of on the edge of the 1/16th line. I usually have to squint to mark that. No joke though, after some time working in these tolerances you can see the difference between 1/8 and 5/32 with out using any measureing device at all. My helper and I bet each all the time on the accuracy of our eyeball measurements. Ultimately no tape measure is very accurate. Even if you take the time to tune it up perfectly after a few days in the shop the hook will bend a little from slamming home into the case and the rivits that hold the hook to the blade wear creating more slop. When accuracy is paramount use a good rule like a Starret. Interestingly the most accurate measureing device in my shop longer than 24" is my Unisaw. It will cut 52" accurate to the 1/64th.
Mike
"after some time working in these tolerances you can see the difference between 1/8 and 5/32"
Mike,
I like to say Eye training is to fine woodworkersas ear training is to fine musicians.
And what our eye's can't readily perceive, our finger tips can!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Right on with the fingertips. I figure I can feel a .001 with no problem.please excuse my spelling.
carpintry?? You from Australia? I love ya folks!
Ha ha. Is that how they spell it there? No I'm a Texan, just can't spell.
mikeplease excuse my spelling.
RJT,
My name is Brian..... and I'm a tape measure addict.
I'm not sure how many I have but there's a drawer that's almost full in my shop. I have found that generally speaking almost any brand of tape measure can be a great tool so long as you adhere to a few simple rules.
1) ALWAYS check and tune your tape measure when you start a project, if it cannot be adjusted properly this means that the rivets are buggered and you should throw it away and avoid frustration (or you could build a trophy case).
2) NEVER let the hook end of the tape measure slam into the tape body, this will destroy the tape measure. I always keep my index finger under the blase of the tape and cushion it as it recoils.
3) NEVER mix tapes during a project, this can cause enormous headaches. Pick the tape your going to use and hide the rest until you've finished.
Many of the smaller tapes (I prefer these for finish and furniture work) have 1/32 increments for the first foot. I've seen a few neat tapes on the Lee Valley website that you should check out.
Brian
I use a 20' craftsman that has 1/32" up to 12". Honestly, 1/32 is in the middle of the 1/16 marks. I'm not sure why you need the little line to tell you were to mark. I cant imagine a tape 1/64" increments.
I can't imagine a cut that critical over 12" that you have to mark to the 64th. It's almost impossible to mark or cut that accurately by hand. The slightest twist in the tape will change your measurement by more that a 1/64.
R,
I suggest you let that "pernickity client " use a dress makers tape. You should equip yourself with a few good quality stainless non reflecting steel rules (eg Shinwa) which may include one as long as 1500mm-these are for cabinetmakers who want to be consistently accurate.* If you hanker for giant squares these are easily made.
Tape measures are for carpenters and builders and for use in your timber yard.
*Since they remain standard at 20* centigrade <G>
"There is no measuring tape adequate for cabinet making. If there is one, it should lay flat, be available in lengths from 2' thru 16' and have 1/16" increments throughout"
Check this out..... http://www.fastcap.com/prod2.asp?page=procarp look at the models labled "flat back"
It is a flat backed, marked 1/32" the first foot easy to read, very accurate, great priced tape measure with a blade that can be written on by a pencil for transfering exact deminsions. For those of you you don't know about FastCap check then out. One of the only companies devoted to cabinetry tools and supplies.
Mike
Edited 7/24/2005 1:28 am ET by mike
Mike,
I saw a Fastcap tape in Rockler the other day and there was a fairly wide white margin on both sides of the tape that, at least for me, would be very frustrating. Granted, you can scribble on the tape. But, I like the calibrations to be very close to the edge of the tape to make it easier to mark the work without introducing inaccuracies.
Do you know if they have a flat tape with the measurement tick-marks right along the edges of the tape?
Thanks,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazz,
Yes they make normal tape and they make a tape that is marked on the top and bottom both (called a left and right tape). Normally the ticks are only up to the bottom edge so you can't accurately mark on the top side. This one is marked seperately on the top and the bottom.
I'm telling you, these guys thought of EVERYTHING. They have like 15 different models. All their products are equally well thought out. The first time I picked one up my only negative thought was that it felt light. I've been carrying around heavy 30' construction tapes for 15+ years, so it seemed wimpy. Truly I don't use Fastcap tapes for framing and construction, they still seem too light. But in the shop, and for trimming nothing is better. Well Starret steel rulers are better I guess.
Check out the site http://www.fastcap.com
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Thanks for the link, Mike!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
RJT, consider a Stanley 35-215 then. The overall length of the tape is 3.5 Metres or about 12 feet. It's marked in inches on one edge, and metric on the other edge. The continuous metric is marked off in millimetre divisions, and there are approximately 25mm per inch, and 1000 mm over about 39-3/8".
Surely 1 mm divisions will be close enough? I've been using the metric system most of my life and I can generally build pieces within 1 millimetre of accuracy, although by the following month the piece might have moved by a millimetre or so in either direction, ha, ha. Slainte.
RJFurniture
I have the non-metric version of that tape and was shocked by how quickly the markings wore off the edges. Kinda useless when the markings are rubbed off for at least 1/8" from the sides. My big stanley is fine - I think the narrow tape on the 12' is just too curved so rubs on the edges. The flat tapes are certainly tempting!
I agree about the metric system being vastly easier - I'm doing some euro-style cabinets now and it's really attractive to shift to metric. I'm too deep into this project to shift now but am thinking about spending some time doing enough measurements in metirc to start to get a feel for sizes in that system.
Some people do seem to go through tapes very quickly. I tend to find I get several years out of one, but I've no idea why as the two I always carry get hauled around in my apron every day and seem to be in constant use. I do handle them carefully though. I never let them snap shut and protect them as much as possible in use.
I've one tape measure that I've been using since the mid 1980's-- one of the solid heavy metal case numbers. The blade developed a kink at about the 430 mm mark several years ago. I suppose it's in semi-retirement for I keep it in my briefcase nowadays and it only gets pulled out occasionally to do its job, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
Maybe this was a bad batch. I usually get a lot more life from my tapes, even the big ones I (ab)use doing construction. Think I'll try one of those fastcap flat tapes.
Here's my favourite tape for cabinet work:
http://store1.yimg.com/I/cspoutdoors_1855_2132787
No hook problems - zero is not at the end.
Tape is flat - 1/32 for first 12" then 1/16 for 6 feet.
Fits in pocket easily.
I have 6 of them around the shop.
Among my collection I have one of these flatback tapes and I use it quite often, love the pencil sharpener!!
Brian
> There is no measuring tape adequate for cabinet making. If there is one, it should lay flat, be available in lengths from 2' thru 16' and have 1/16" increments throughout. <
I'll put in a vote for the old folding rule, for some operations. If I built a carcase and wanted to check the two diagonals (to check for squareness), I'd rather use my Starrett folding rule with brass extension than a tape measure.
Ed Harrison,
Yes, good point! Measuring diagonals with a tape measure is a pain! How many times have I done this and had the measure pop off. Plus, I am often measuring the diagonal under the clamp bars.Here here -- folding rule for diagonals.
"Here here -- folding rule for diagonals."
Matt,
If you're talking about assessing diagonals when squaring-up, I take a slightly different route to the same destination: a pair of pinch rods.
I made three sets in different lengths and have no need to measure - after positioning the pinch rods across the short diagonal, I can usually eyeball the difference on the opposite (longer) diagonal and adjust as necessary - moving the clamps so they are more parallel with the long dimension.
If I need to take an inside measurement, I agree with you - a folding rule is easier and more reliable than a tape.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
jazzdogg,
I was actually referring to both. When I do casework, I use a tape measure to square up, and I don't like that. Seemed to me that a folding rule would solve the problem.
and had the measure pop off..Just a OLD guy here but... I drilled a small hole and put a small brass wood screw in it...Yes.. You have to push the point in the wood first but works pretty well if ya have to walk along way off!
This has been an interesting thread.
I'm sure most of you know this, and no doubt some of you use it. But Story sticks are the absolute best solution for more complicated layouts. I built a pantry with graduated drawers starting at 12" on the bottom to 4" at 4 feet from the ground. Then it had pullouts and adjustable shelving the rest of the way up. I would have gone bonkers trying to measure all the little details, like where the drawer slides mount on the cab side and match up to the drawers. Added to this headache was that there was only 3/16" gap between each drawer! So I ended up marking and drilling all the drawer hardware on the cabinet sides before the box was glued up or the drawers had been built. Of course this is standard proceedure for cabinetry, but there is no way to accurately mark all that hardware without making compounded errors (ie. the first drawer slide is off by 1/64, the second 1/32, the next....) So I do not use a tape at all. I draw the spacing and all the details out on story sticks and make it LOOK right, screw the measurements. I tarnsfer measurements using a divider or Starret rule or clamp the stick to the cabinet side and directly transfer the marks.
About the only thing I use the tape measures for is measureing the trim and the initial breaking down of the plywood.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Well, of course you're right Mike. Nobody really measures a 64th of an inch in a woodshop do they? I don't think the Goddard/Townsend operations owned measuring devices this accurate. No, I'd imagine they used story sticks or simply offered one part to another and made a tick mark.
We use metric which divides the inch into 25 pieces instead of 16. I also set up angle cuts with a trig square using fractions of a degree (expressed in minutes) as a set up tool for different machines so that cuts can be duplicated easily on all of them. aloha, mike
Tapes do have decreasing significance in cabinetmaking and certainly story poles can facilitate that. Blum also has aluminum extruded hardware jigs that move this even closer to a tapeless system. 2400 mm poles with each drawer tandem drilling jig and hinge mount jig already attached has been great for me and incredibly faster than back in my tape days. They cost a little bit but make the whole setup process 4-5 times faster for me. aloha, mike
RJT,
Like you, I am always on the lookout for a good carpenter's tape.
A few days ago, I bought the fastcap flatback tape at my local Woodcraft, and so far I like it! I had read about these tapes and wondered what the big deal is. It's nice and smooth, easy to read for marking in cabinet work, with a couple of interesting features.
I like being able to make your own mark right on the tape -- why didn't anybody think of this before?
I like the pencil sharpener on the tape.
And I like the button that holds the tape in place until you release it.
And I was surprised it was under $10.
Edited 7/25/2005 8:04 am ET by Matthew Schenker
I am just curious why you want this? For lengths less than 3' a steel rule is much better.
For longer lengths, tapes are generally only accurate +/- 1/32". (At least the cheap tapes I own). Tapes can also stretch to some degree. That is why you don't want to change tapes during a project, as others have said.
For working wood in lengths more than 3", changes in humidity can also affect the actual length to a surprising degree, depending on the species. Unless of course you are not working with wood.
I am not sure what machinists use to measure length. Does anyone know?
Thirty inches of particle board absolutely can move 1/64" in a couple of days. Is your shop climate controlled? If so do you acclimate the stock for a week, stickered? Other wise you are still worrying about something that is not possible to do anyway.
I am not sure if I understand what you are doing but if you are making a piece that needs to match someone elses template, ask for a copy or sample of that other part to measure mark off with.
Good luck,
Mike
Call Starret. I can't guess what it will cost but they will definately be able to provide you with a "go/ no go" gauge. The probably already have aomething in stock. Actually I bet a competint machine shop could make you an accurate gauge for very little $$$.
Mike
Of course I meant in a furniture workshop, not a production facility.
Some of the finest furniture ever produced was built using measuring devices crude by today's standards.
Edited 7/28/2005 9:57 am ET by Stanford
RJT, this isn't exactly what you were asking about, but... For extra tight tolerances, I use a Starrett digital caliper. No more checking to see if joints fit. It may well be my favorite tool in the shop. Bill
I bought a fractional dial caliper from Highland Hardware a few years ago and use it almost daily; it displays measurements on the dial in both fractions and thousandths of an inch.
I like not having to worry about mentally converting back and forth between thousandths and sixteenths, thirty-seconds, and sixty-fourths, but admit that because I seldom have to use those skills, I find myself doing a little head scratching when I use someone else's dial caliper that measures only in base-ten.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I use a Lufkin x46F, Fastcap and if your gonna make more than one of the same you should be using "tick" sticks IMHO,
For those who fought. Freedom has a special meaning the protected never know.
JD, you might find this spreadsheet handy. I made it years ago, laminated it and keep it in the shop.
Best,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Visit Dust Maker
Thanks, Mark.
I made one of those myself - I keep a copy in my dial indicator case. Unfortunatley, my brain doesn't have quite the rapid recall of my PC (and seems to be getting worse with each passing year), and the print-out is typically most-needed when I'm using someone else's caliper! Murphy strikes again!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Now, in measurement, it's hard to beat the name Starrett. Just ask any machinist.
Reading scales, it is commonly accepted practice that you can read to 1/2 the division of the finist gradation, so if the rule is only marked in 1/16ths, you can easily read to 1/2 of that, ie to 32nds.
To my pea brain, while there are times that closer measurments are certainly required, you ain't gonna be able to get meet that requirement with a tape measure, ergo, the masters of measurement say, "we will stop at 1/16th, you can read to 1/32, and if you wanna be more precise that that, use a different measuring system, like vernier calipers, or even the simple story stick. "
Now I know that folks will say they can get accurate readings beyond the 1/32 from a tape measure, and I won't disagree with them. Essentially it can be used with pencil mark as a flexible story stick. But for measurement, well most folks don't know that them metal tapes is subject to expansion and contraction with temperature variations (hey roll out to the end of yer 100' metal tape and it will tell you what temperature it's accurate at (on a good tape), if not the tension it is supposed to be held at to produce accurate results!!-yes grasshoper there are tape tensioning devices for just such applications!!)
But there is a reason why tape measure manufacturers don't generally overextend or exxagerate the precision of their instruments, particularly where yer dealing with a company like Starrett. That is that if you want 1/64th precision, and want it reproducable, you ain't likely to find it from a tape measure. Hey, phone em and ask em if they make really precise tape measures, you might get more info than you wanted.
The tip slides wear, or even get a piece of sawdust in em; the tip itself is often angled ever so slightly so that it doesn't slip off what yer measuring, and although nobody ever drops their tape measure, that eventuality is possible that the tang could get bent, so that a 12" measurment on a 2x4 is gonna be slightly shorter than a 12" measurement on a piece of laminate, or vice versa depending on the nature of the damage from the drop.
So, with temperature variations, susceptability to damage, effects of debris, Even when you buy a new tape measure from a reputable mfgr that tape measure has a finite life depending on how it gets used. It can appear pristine, but still generate wrong measurements. Ergo, no need to go hyper precise.
Starret re-tapes are what I use. They are typically less than 10 bucks CDN for a 25 ft tape which uses a recycled plastic case. Best deal around to my mind, and when I buy em, I genearlly get three or four at once, just to replace the ones that walked off. The worn out ones, if they hang around to that point, get tossed into the concrete tool tub or the ceramic tile tub where they can be used for yet another lifetime where accuracy is somewhat less important.
I dunno, that's just my perspective. I been wrong before, could be I is again, but to me...
Tape measures are a consumable, not an investment. Buy quality, but don't be afraid to discard/re-direct it when it's precision is gone.
Eric in Cowtown
Just ask any machinist..Brown En' Sharp.. is as good or better...
I have been looking for a replacement tape for 16' craftsman to use in the shop. I used the craftsman for 5-6 years and they no longer make same tape.
So I went by rocker and picked up Fastcap Metric/Standard Flat black. I was pleased as I had a coupon got it "free".
Then I stopped by Woodcraft and picked up a Fastcap Flat black standard and PS storypole. When I got home to play with new toys, I found the Metric/Standard off at 2" by 1/16". The other two were right on.
And then I noticed that on the Flat Blacks the hook doesn't move. Does this affect readings? I like the tapes--I carry a 25' Craftsman at work and it's just to big for alot of things.
I guess I'll return the Metric/Standard the next time I'm by Rockler.
The flat back tape has a fixed hook because it is not used for inside measurements. It is like trying to push a wet noodle into the wall. The tape buckles too easily for that use. Sorry to hear about your bad inch/ metric tape. I've used thier tapes for a year now and they are always right on. I suspect it is because of the metric graduations. Damn commie measurements. ;-)
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Marion,
"they no longer make same tape"
Sigh... don't you just love "progress"? I've been using the same left handed Stanley 12' powerlock tape measure for at least the last 20 yrs, first replacing the tapes, then buying right-handed ones and taking the tapes out of them to put in mine. Last time I bought a replacement righty, they had changed the attachment to the spring, on the tape. Now my tape measure faces the wrong way on my pocket, and I have to flip it 180* every time I go to use it. Life is SO unfair!!!
Grrr,
Ray
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