I’m using Abralon discs for the first time to rub out a water based finish (Minwax Polycrylic). Using a Festool ROS. I’ve gone through grits 380, 500, 1000, 2000 and 4000. I waited 9 days for the last coat of finish to cure. I now have a very uniform surface but it is satin or even matte, nowhere near even semi glossy. I did not use a lubricant. What did I do wrong? Do I need more time rubbing out?
Thx
Dan
Replies
I am no finish guru by any means, Dan. But.. I do use Abralon and when you go up in grit, the surface should get shiner as each higher grit makes the scratches smaller and smaller. If you want satin with Abralon .. you just stop at 500.
So.. with did you do wrong? You did not use lubricant is what is wrong IMO. Abralon is made for just that also as it has a foam backed pad. It will most definitely cut and without using lube from 500 up you took the sheen off then. Once it was gone.. the higher grit cannot produce the high shine. You kind of put the cart before the horse by not using the lube as I see it.
But.. let the guru's make the call. If you compared my finishing to say auto related racing... I am a master of the demolition derby. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
Thx for your reply. What lube would you use for a water based finish and an electric ROS?
Regards,
Dan
I usually use mineral spirits with Abralon. You can also use water, but you need to ensure that the wood is well sealed if you do.
Are you using the foam interface pad (the one that's a little over 1/2" thick and sits between the sander's pad and the Abralon pad)?
-Steve
Again Dan.. I am no finish guru and I have never used a water based. First.. was the finish hand applied or sprayed? Did you use gloss.. semi.. satin..? How thick is the coat and when did you start with the ROS? These are questions that need to be stated so hopefully one of the finish folks can answer your question properly.
But.. I will add a few notes I have found useful with Abralon, which is great stuff BTW. I mainly use Danish oils or similar with shellac. Shellac is easy to rub out and polish as it dries very hard. If.. if.. you allow at least a week from the last coat before you tackle the rub-out to let it cure properly.
Again but.... you better have a heavy build-up of finish before you tackle it with Abralon and a ROS. Frankly.. I don't use an ROS after I have laid finish. I personally feel it is too aggressive. I use the 5" hand pad that came with my kit from Jeff Hewitt. I hand scuff for the feel up to 400 using mineral spirits as a lubricant for shellac. Then I start with the 500 Abralon. If I want satin or low sheen.. that's as far as I take it. But with a gloss finish.. the higher you go, the more shine as you won't have a glossy sheen until 1200 grit and over.
I just don't know about about the characteristics of water based finish, so hopefully one of the finish guru's will jump in here. I'm surprised they haven't already. Howie.. Gretchen.. were are you as time for the cavalry to charge. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
I'm afraid I can't help much. I rarely use waterborne finishes and I have never tried to rub one out with a machine or by hand.I have heard that some waterborne finishes do not rub out well. Maybe Minwax Polycrylic is one of those. I would suggest you might want to go to Jeff Jewitt's site and post a question there. http://www.homesteadfinishing.comHowie.........
Thanks Howie as I don't use them either. My only experience was using them on a two assembly tables and that doesn't qualify for a real finish. That was when they first came out and the formula's may have changed since then.. but I found the surface would scratch easily and left somewhat of a milky texture to it even using gloss on them.
Looks like Bigfootnampa has Dan covered well. And even though I am not familiar with the water-base, I think Bigfoot's suggestion to level it out and ad one more flood-coat is Dan's best option. It just makes sense at this stage of the game.
BTW Bigfoot.. I have 3 padded coat of shellac on and am waiting 24 hours before laying another 3 with scuffing in between. So... when can you get by to do that for me so I don't have another demolition derby entry?
Just kidding of course... excellent job of explaining to Dan as I learned a few things about water coating also. Mainly that I'm sticking with oil based or shellac. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Assuming that you are trying for a high gloss finish I believe that you started out with a poor product. To get a high gloss rubout is a rather skilled endeavor. You have to have a particularly hard finish to begin with and then build it to suitable depth and cure it quite thoroughly and then your Abralon is an ideal product but I have found that you still need a hand-rubbed polish to complete the gloss look.
Only a small percentage of finishes are well suited for this process. I'd suggest that you check into using some that are designed for it. Try Arthur Grudko's "PianoLac"
http://www.pianolac.com/
You must realize the truth of my second sentence: To get a high gloss rubout is a rather skilled endeavor. I have rarely heard of craftsmen who were very successful at this on their first or second attempt. It takes intimate knowledge of your materials, equipment, and supplies and some practice to get there. The finish that you are wanting is a particularly unforgiving one and mistakes are very visible. Small bobbles of technique show up glaringly in the finished surface. The mere posession of Abralon does not catalyze a magic transformation to Master Finisher (though it's a good start).
Thx to all for the inputs. To respond to some of the comments:
1) I have 3 coats of the water based finish on top of shellac (all hand applied). I would have just used shellac except that this will be a daily-use table and wanted something more suitable (durable, scratch resistant, etc.). Pls don't anyone start the "shellac wars" on this thread. I already have the water based down, so it doesn't matter.
2) I'm not trying for a high gloss finish. Semi-gloss is the most sheen I am looking for, and I may want a bit less sheen than that. I am admittedly NOT a skilled finisher which is why I started lurking here a little while ago. I know that a high gloss finish is the least forgiving. I will admit that I was at least hopeful that I could "buy" a pro finish (with Abralon and Festool, and an Apollo HVLP that is still in the box).
3) I did use the foam interface pad, though since this is a flat table top I wasn't sure if I needed to or even should have (at least for the 500 grit to help level the finish).
4) Are mineral spirits nonconductive and therefore shock-safe with a electrical ROS? And of course also safe with the water based product (ie a non-solvent)?
5) I am using a Festool 150/3 (6 inch and 3mm stroke) ROS which is variable speed. I am using the lowest speed, is this recommended? I overlapped the ROS passes by about half, and moved it about 6 inches per second.
If I had no other inputs (though I welcome many more), I would probably go back to 500 and work back up to 2000 or 4000, but use mineral spirits. Unless educated otherwise, I guess I would stay with the lowest speed as well.
Responses welcome.
Dan
The foam pad is GOOD even on smooth flat surfaces.
At this point you should probably add three more coats of finish and cure them before any further polishing. Six coats is more like where you should have started anyway.
You'll find that your next three coats will lay pretty smooth as you now have a nicely sealed and smoothed substrate. So when you are ready to begin polishing again start with about 2000 grit and go up (unless it seems too tedious getting smooth with the 2000... in which case you can back up one grit).
Using the finer grits you'll probably want to speed up the sander to more of a medium level. Especially as lubricants slow the cutting (they also make the grits cut finer).
I usually use water for lubricant... cheap, widely available, non-flammable, washes off easily, doesn't clog the discs, non-toxic, etc. It's a problem if you sand through the finish... but then the REAL problem is that you sanded through the finish.
The Festoool is FAST! I don't have one so I can't advise exactly but move fairly quickly and then clean up your lube and dust so that you can see where you are at. I'd guess that the Festool will make short work of each grit.
One problem that you are likely to run into is "witness lines" . Those are where you have sanded through one coat into another and they show lines at the interfaces (they look kind of like water with ice in it). Top craftsmen try to minimize these by using finishes that are less prone to show them and hitting recoat "windows" that help to weld the coats into one sheet. They also try to get a nice smooth filled finish and then apply one relatively thick coat which they intend to polish to the final sheen (without cutting through it). Lower sheens will ease the tendency to show witness lines (and most other defects as well).
As a final note I would say that I personally would get a semi-gloss finish right off the gun (or brush) rather than trying to polish it. I would smooth and level the surface about where you have it now and then one more coat and voila! As you say you are brushing look to your choice of brush carefully. I like a lily bristle (bleached china) brush. I look for a fine stain grade set of bristles. I thin slightly for my topcoat and flow it on quickly while tipping off very gently in strips with the grain. Done skillfully you will get a coat as smooth as most spray gun finishes and better than many.
bfn,
Top craftsmen try to minimize these by using finishes that are less prone to show them and hitting recoat "windows" that help to weld the coats into one sheet.
This may a bit off topic but I am wondering if that might be one of the reasons why shellac could be used by us non-professional finishers?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I will let Bigfoot answer the question Bob, as he seems to have a rather good handle on this finish thing. But.. I will add that is one reason a non-professional as myself does use shellac. I find it does not layer as most oil bases therefore I am less prone to cut through a layer exposing the one underneath.
It just blends with the coat underneath. And being a terrible finisher... if I get a it too thick, I can just sand back down to flat and lay a couple more padding coats thinned to a degree. That's basically how I use it on open pored oak. Slurry sand and then fill the remaining pores with finish by flooding.. Back-sand to flat.. add another thinner coat and just wait for it to cure.
I hate using paste fillers as the other steps are tedious enough with curing time calculated.
Sarge..
Sarge,
Interesting that you mention Slurry sanding with shellac. I have tried that several times with no success. It seemed like the alcohol flashed off and I ended up with sawdust all over the place instead of filling the pores.
Have any clue as to what I might be doing wrong? Do you make the slurry with something other than shellac or alcohol?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You can't do it with shellac, as you've discovered, because it dries in seconds. Typically the slurry technique is done with an oil or oil and varnish finish that takes at least a few hours to set up.John W.
John W. nailed if for you already, Bob. I use Danish Oil to create the slurry. Once that dries.. I use another coat of Danish and then let it cure for a week. Then comes the shellac.
Sorry about the confusion as I was in a hurry as it seems I'm always in a hurry. I have a 5 coats of shellac over a cured Danish base that was finalized last Sunday. It's in the cure stage now. I let it sit for a week as I do the Danish. Should be ready for a rub out Sunday.
But... in the meantime, I popped out an entertainment center with bookcases for my son to avoid killing time. That's cut and ready to assemble as I just laid a cost of varnish on the inner surface. I will assemble after 3 coat of inner then do the outer.
So... I have two finish jobs working at once at the moment.. Shellac and varnish in various stages of application and cure. Did I mention I always seem to be in a hurry? ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Gotta go.. will post pics of the chest of drawers next week hopefully...
Sarge..
Hi Sarge,
That's cut and ready to assemble as I just laid a cost of varnish on the inner surface. I will assemble after 3 coat of inner then do the outer.
I'm assuming that you're going to shellac these as a top coat? If so, please let us know how this works out in terms of containing the smell from interior varnish. I've heard of this being done before and would very much like to know if it works.
I've been wanting to try this and I have a project nearing completion that I'd like to use this method but am a bit gun shy as they say.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Actually Bob, I wasn't intending to do that. This is just a 26" wide stand that is 72" tall and open. A TV will sit at 30" (bed height as requested by he) with an open space with removable shelf underneath. Two shelves above the large TV space for books.. DVD's, whatever.
This thing is done hastily with a sheet of oak ply that I got from my supplier for $20 as it had tear out on the outer 4" in the veneer. The face and shelves are from left over shorts that were on hand. I don't like working with sheet goods, but this is for my son who could care less what it looks like. As long as it functions.
But... I know that shellac can be used as a seal-coat under oil based as long as it is de-waxed. But.. I have never heard of it being used over varnish to contain the smell. Keep in mind that I am no finish guru and I do not know.. so if someone has done it and been successful, I would consider doing it just to see?
This whole thing is based on leftovers and a short window of time. It's taken around 4 months to do his mom's chest of drawers, but this will not get the attention to detail that I would put into hers. Does that tell you where my priorities are? ha.. ha... ha.. ha.. ha..
So.... if someone says they have done it successfully I will top-coat it with shellac for experimentation. I have some on-hand. If not... he gets what he gets from left-overs as need exceeds value.
Sarge..
Bob;
I started out as a nonprofessional finisher. I started with wipe-on finishes of the tung oil/ polyurethane blend type. I got some beautiful finishes that way too. I think that way is easier for a non-expert than the shellacs, though they too are user friendly. Today I use mostly high grade acrylics but I have used some of almost everything. These acrylics are pretty tricky for beginners but in my hands they have unparalelled versatility and create durable finishes of many many looks with minimal time investments. I do so many little things to make a finish work that it would take an apprentice years to learn most of them but I've done it long enough now that the appearance that I seek just flows out from under my tools and brushes with only rare special effort on my part to diagnose trouble factors. I use shellac sometimes but it is a once-in-a-while here-and-there product for me. It mostly lacks the kind of superb durability that I like to deliver but it's useful for certain types of problem areas.
Today I rarely use the tung oil/poly blend systems but I still do sometimes use wipe-on poly formulas and I sometimes modify them with added linseed oil to make them a hand rubbing finish. Great for small three-dimensional parts which will be handled and should feel smooth and warm to the touch.
I'm gonna ask a dumb question. Have you tried a spot of wax on it? Sometimes that's all it takes to move a matte surface to a more glossy one.
I used Behlen's Blue Label wax, and it brought the sheen to exactly where I want it.
But I can see swirl marks in the dried wax, not in a pattern from the buffer but rather from the hand applicator pad. I've never used wax on one of my furniture pieces before, so I'm sure I did something basically wrong. I applied one very thin coat of wax and let it dry 5 minutes. It definitely was dry before I buffed it out. Any suggestions?
I would not think the turpentine in it would bother the finish, if it were completely cured. The only time I've ever had problems with wax rubouts is when I "thought" the finish was cured and it wasn't completely (which I discovered). So no, I'm not quite sure what's going on here. This stuff can drive you nuts sometimes.
SB
I had a friend do the exact same thing I understand that you have done. He didn't want to start all over again with 3 coats down so he wanted to polish up to a satin sheen.
Solution: I took my Dewalt automotive buffer(1000-1200rpm) with some polishing glaze- the automotive stuff from a quart bottle and buffed out the surface to a nice sheen. I used a large foam(sponge-like) pad. Done in less than an hour. Table size is 42" by 90" of curly maple.
Might be the trick for you.
Funny,
I was in a Pep Boys auto store today looking at the buffers for exactly that reason. I may very well try that.
Dan
Just make sure its the slow speed. You are fine 800-1400
I agree with danmart.I have rubbed out many waterborne finishes, though not the one you have used.An automotive polisher is a very good investment. You can get excellent models for as low as $20.Get a tube of Meguiar's ScratchX. Let the finish cure for another week. Then polish with the Meguiar's. Mirror finish.You can also use the ROS with a soft cloth. Or even by hand.Rich
Edited 4/17/2008 7:02 pm ET by Rich14
Mineral spirits are moderately flammable I would not use them as a lube when using a ROS which continuously sparks at the brush assembly while the motor is running.
John White
I'd say you just need to keep going. With finer grits. And enough with the sander, thats done everything it can now.
You can go by hand with felt blocks, paraffin oil, and pumice and rottenstone, or if you want the speed of electric (and have the buffer and pads already) you can go through the various stages of automotive buffing compounds to get to whatever sheen you want.
I'm doing a table now and I use abralon between coats for nibs, and the finish coat I started with 800 Titan (a Festool paper) but that was it for the sander. After that, fine cut, swirl remover, etc up to the glazes.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
I have had good results rubbing out a catalyzed lacquer finish using a Festool ROS and pretty much the same grades, except I do 220, 320, 400, 800 and then same as you. I don't think that would make much difference.
After finishing with the 4000, you should apply a silicone-free rubbing compound, then polishing compound and finally swirl remover. You can get these at a good automotive store. Do not use the sheepskin pad as it's far too abrasive. I use a clean terry cloths attached to a small hand buffer, except for the swirl remover, which I hand wipe. You could also get the really high-end polishes from Menzerna.
These last steps really bring out the finish.
Hastings
PS Forgot to say that I don't use a lubricant.
Edited 4/11/2008 9:46 am ET by Hastings
Hastings,
After you use the 4000 Abralon, and before you use the compounds and buffer, do you have a semi-gloss surface or is it still matte? Might this be different for water based versus lacquer?
Thx
Dan
Here's the process I used... I sprayed three coats of gloss USL from Target Coatings... after two coats of their universal sealer. I flattened the finish by hand with successive grits (600, 800, 1000, 1500)using lots of water as a lubricant. Long strokes with the finer grits. Then I used an Abralon disc, grit 2000. I lubricated with a spray bottle -- you don't need much water to lubricate and I don't think it presents an electrical hazard. Finally, I lubricated with water and added just a few drops of auto glazing compound and used a worn Abralon disc. This ended up being a nice smooth semi-gloss. Be sure your water based finish is really cured -- at least a week before you do any of this.
I haven't used water-based so I really cannot say.Are you getting a smooth, ground-glass like surface at 220 grit before you start moving to the higher grits? This is critical. I find it takes four to five coats to get enough material such that it can be flattened at 220 grit. Water-based may need more aplications but I'm just guessing.I find that if you look at the surface after 800 it's fairly glossy when held up at an oblique angle to the light. Looked at on the bench, it's still matte. Some thing at 4000 but much less so. It is the final rubbing/polishing that brings out the shine.Hastings
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