Wine,
Well , yes it can seem that way .
I interpret it as self confidence with a touch of attitude thrown in just to let others know that they “we” are way good .
It doesn’t’ really have to be that way , and it’s too bad so many assume that posture , we were all nice folks before the sawdust infused our blood and brains .
With my potential clients I am so much more not arrogant , but confident than in the early years of my career . It is only from hanging around with the likes of Ray and Richard and just to mention a few that are a very bad influence on us , my Mother said I was a good boy until recently .
dusty, I got no darn attitude
Replies
"Are arrogance and woodworking skill proportional?"
Not proportional, but there is an overall correlation. You have to be assertive to pursue something long enough to get good at it, and assertiveness can sometimes manifest as arrogance. It's only an average, however, with very wide variance; on an individual basis, the skill/arrogance ratio is all over the map.
-Steve
Assertiveness, not arrogance. That's a great observation.Brian
The aerospace company I work for has 140 employees. I do my best to not talk about woodworking (especially with new people) because the discussion always seems to turn into oneupmanship. I don't think it helpful or enjoyable when a person's focus is on the size, number, brands of tools and machines they have, instead of what can be learned from each other. So I confine my conversations to a few of friends and my father.
Does that make me arrogant? ;)
"Does that make me arrogant? ;)"
No. It does make you someone with whom I would probably enjoy talking about woodworking.
All,
I am not arrogant. It only seems that way, because you are all so obviously inferior.
Hope that clears things up. It did for me. Heh, heh.
Ray
David Ray ,
So there you are , skulking around in the shadows just waiting to be arrogantly painful and mean spirited .
Some probably are not allowed to play with you when you were a kid and now as well .
dusty , the accepting
Ray , didn't know about your overhaul , had no idea , I hope you are doing well , hasn't seemed to effect your sense of humor , will hold good thoughts for you .
dusty,
That's right, was your mom one of those who refused to let you out to play when I was seen coming down the road? Now all know why I have to skulk, and the reason for my surly attitude.
Ray, back under the bridge
ps Thanks for the kind words. Nothing like a heart attack to get your attention. Got a good report yesterday, tho, on some bloodwork, seems the meds are doing their thing,
True story. A friend's wife said to him. "My friends think your arrogant and condescending. He looked at me. My response to him was, "What do you care what the little people think."
ROLF!Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Len,
Funny. And just the right response. They said the same thing about John Adams, so your friend is in good company.
Ray
That must have been you that pulled all of the drawers out of Winemans work? <!----><!----><!---->
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AZMO,
No, usually one drawer is enough to see the level of workmanship.
In all seriousness, I don't think I've ever expressed criticism on workmanship, unless it was specifically asked for. There's always something that can be admired when a craftsman has done a job, and is willing to put it in front of the public. Abe Lincoln used to (allegedly) say, at such times as he was at a total loss, "That's a real good example of what it is!"
And, I certainly have had my share of drawer-pullers at shows. The best was a fellow who, looking at a dovetailed box with a mitered stuck molding on its top edge, said to his wife, "Don't buy that, I can build you one just like it." With my permission, he took a few minutes to look it over, and they walked away. Hour or so later, he walked back into the booth, and said, "I was clear out to the parking lot, when I realized those corners were mitered and dovetailed at the same time. I had to come back to see that it could be done."
Ray
Wine,
I humbly stand corrected. I'd hate for you to add bullheaded to the list.
Ray
You could take the other way as well.
I don't know how many meetings I have sat in with managers who say, "You 'just' do (fill in the blank)." Now that's arrogant.
I was taught that there is always someone bettter than yourself. I'm the first to admit that I don't know how to do anything. This way everyone is impressed with what I've accomplished.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
I don't really think there is always someone better, per se. This is a generalization. We are involved in the same trade, but we do not do the same work. Better at what? Just because one cannot recreate the other's work does not mean that they can recreate yours. We have all made beautiful pieces. Don't say that you don't know anything because I know A LOT and yet am no 'better' at woodworking than you!Brian
Brian,
Thanks for the compliment. I was being a little tongue and cheek with my comments about not knowing anything. I need to work on that. It didn't translate well.
While I was taught that there is always someone better than you. The intent of that teaching wasn't to keep me down. It was to keep me going. To always try to better yourself. Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Wine,
Now , I think we are getting close. The arrogance thing seems to be more of a stage of proving oneself to others as opposed to a mean spirited soul , it only sounds like that .After self confidence is attained and the desire to prove to all how good we are declines , for me sharing and the willingness to teach and show all those tricks and tips that were earned through blood sweat and tears sort of brings me back into balance so to speak .What better thing can we do to help promote our craft then to mentor and encourage others .
dusty
"It’s better on the down hill side."
I'm right there with you. It's interesting looking back. To see where you made your mistakes or perceived mistakes. I never denied help to anyone that needed help. I was self assured and I knew what I was doing but it was sometimes viewed as arrogant. Yet others that were also viewed as arrogant are some of my best friends. Those people are some of the most generous and giving people I have ever known. Seems contradictory that arrogant people get along. It's funny how my knowledge is being now recognized by my former employees and colleagues. Some are all casualties of outsourcing and downsizing. As I am. I spend a lot of my time counseling them. So maybe I have found the equilibrium.
Sounds like you have too.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Confuscious Uncle Joe,
Knowledge of past make good foundation for future.
Disoriented in NH,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Good one!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I think that a person who is highly skilled knows what he does not know. He also knows what he needs improvement in. Nobody can know everything. However we can always have an attitude of learning. Over the years because someone has told me how great he is in something and then when I see his work I realize that he is not as good as he thinks he is. That has caused me to not be so sure of myself and be a little more reserved in my judgment of myself. There are people out there just trying to make a living who are not very good at marketing their skills but do some incredible work. If only someone would help them to be known it would change that person's life. In contrast there are those who are not all that skilled and can market the skills they do have.Recently I heard someone say that the biggest fear Bill Gates has is of someone working in his garage.
Don't mean to butt in on your conversation, but I think WINEMANE is wise beyond his years (however old he is) , just recently helped steer me out of a blind alley.
My input on woodworker's arrogance : If you can back it up with what you can do, you have "character", if not, your just an ####.
That's interesting ! I just used a synonym for "donkey" and the software assumed I meant #%&@!!! That might be a little close to unneccessary.
Are arrogance and woodworking skill proportional?
Only if somebody says something different than you think!
Whether or not arrogance is a natural derivative of skill (and I believe it shouldn't be), I'd like to relate something I've observed about working for clients:
Alot of them seem to expect a little arrogance. Almost as if they confuse it with competence.
I do all my woodworking for myself, but I have taken on side jobs doing a little machining for friends of friends and occasionally a little home improvement project for someone at work. For awhile I tried approaching these clients like I would anyone else: Treat them like I would want to be treated, listen to their ideas, try to cut them a bit of a deal on the price (since I really only do these things when I need something to keep me busy anyway).
Know where all that got me? Treated like an idiot most of the time. They'd poke their noses in, give unsolicited, unwarranted, and bad advice, and just generally give the impression that they weren't sure I could do the job.
So when my friend Joel came to me and said he had a friend at work wo wanted some rollers made for a tubing bender he was designing, I decided to try a little experiment. Joel had given me the lowdown on this guy, a real know-it-all hotshot. When I met with him and he gave me the "print" for the part (a cocktail napkin scribble) I whipped out my red sharpie, made a few marks on it, and threw it on the table in front of him. In the most condescending tone I could muster, I said "You've left about five critical dimensions off of this. Maybe you should think about getting an engineer to draw this up for you. " Flustered, he said "no, no, I can get those for you". So we met again another time, and he had the dimensions I wanted, so the discussion turned to price. Being a friend of a friend, I gave him my "buddy" rate, and since this was a fairly simple part, I stood to make a few bucks anyway. And darned if he didn't try to haggle with me anyway. So I crumpled up his napkin and threw it in the trash with a derisive little laugh. Seeing the shock on his face, I became drunk with power. "Look", I said, "any machine shop around here is going to charge you triple my price for this part. If you think you can get a better deal, have at it. But I promise you you'll be back here begging to pay me my price, but guess what? My price doubles the second you walk outta here. " His answer amazed me. "Well... okay".
So I made him the parts, nothing special, a couple steps on the O.D., and I.D. bore for a shaft and two pockets for bearings. Nothing any competent lathesman couldn't have done. But when I delivered them, the guy couldn't stop raving about them. "They're perfect, you're my guy from now on," etc. etc.
After a little trial and error, I found a happy medium between the nice guy I usually am and the uppity jerk that I had been with that guy. I learned that there are alot of people out there who regard tradesmen of any kind as idiots, otherwise why would we be wasting our time tinkering and getting dirty and... ugh... making stuff instead of working in a nice air conditioned office like them. When these people are your clients, their arrogance can only be met with arrogance in kind or in greater measure; otherwise the natural assumption is you don't know what you're doing, and they become nightmares to work for. It's really unfortunate, too, but it makes you appreciate the good clients all that much more.
Sorry for the long post and sorry if it came off kind of rantish, I guess I've been carrying that around with me for awhile.
Edited 7/4/2008 2:28 pm ET by pek-r-wood
and just generally give the impression that they weren't sure I could do the job.
YES.. AND Yes again.. I usually worked in a Suit and white shirt! Took the Tie off for safety reasons..
I NEVER left a machine un-fixed!
EDIT: A Question of Proportion
My wife was a bit fat or plump? as any heathy woman should be after 4 children,, I never noticed how her and I changed after the 'kids' She was still beautiful to me!
Edited 7/4/2008 3:00 pm by WillGeorge
Hi Wineman,
You asked: "Are arrogance and woodworking skill proportional?"
Short, answer - yes ... inversely.
Longer answer. Over the years in a variety of settings, I've had the opportunity to interact with hundreds of woodworkers, both professional and amateur. In general, I suspect that basic personality characteristics are distributed among woodworkers in a manner similar to other pursuits and interests.
But, I have noticed a strong correlation between people who are over-eager to impress me with how much they know (often, stated quite assertively) and those who actually have very little experience or knowledge. Took me quite a while to realize that they probably were compensating for their own insecurities and lack of skill in the trade. If these folks asked any questions at all, they were invaribly framed in such a way as to be a challenge rather than genuinely seeking information. I typically ask them, in turn, how they would do the job in question, and their answers invariably exhibit a nearly total ignorance of the topic. And, invariably, their work exhibited the same characteristics.
On the other hand, particularly on job-sites, I generally have found those who show a genuine friendly interest in and curiosity about my work to be those who demonstrate seasoned skill and knowledge in their own trade (woodworking or not). While they exhibit a quiet confidence, there is generally no apparent urgency to impress me with their credentials/accomplishments. I think this comes from security in the knowledge that their work speaks for itself.
What may be mistaken for arrogance, however, is the fact that most skilled and seasoned trade woodworkers have little use for the seemingly numerous frauds and know-it-alls on the job sites. Far too often, they've had to deal with the appalling aftermath of the efforts of such folks, and subsequently have little patience for it/them (to put it mildly).
As far as having to exhibit arrogance in order to impress/recruit customers, I guess I feel life is too short to do work for anyone who would actually respond positively to such treatment. In our current business, we try to treat our customers as we would like to be treated and they more than return the favor (unfortunately, we test their patience). In fact, we regularly marvel at how good our customers are to us, and take real pleasure in our dealings with them. Personally, I wouldn't want it any other way.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
When you are good at something and people who view what you do continually tell you how good you are, a tad of arrogance is bound to grow. It takes a person of deep humility to not get somewhat pompous and arrogant in the sight of such praise. We are human after all and most of us do have our failings. I dont mind, so much the accomplised souls who have this failing. However, when arrogance comes from the ones who dont do anything challenging or do anything for anyone but themselves is where I have a problem. Its very easy to be great at something when the only judge of this is you. I have a brother who is the best read wood worker on the planet. He can tell you all the intimate details of all the tools produced by any manufacturer over the past 20 years. I can recall about maybe 8 projects he has worked on in the past 10 years. It takes him forever to finish something and.......he s single!! One of these was a work bench that I call his "look bench" because thats all he does with it........look at it. Yet he is the first to look at anything I have ever done, with a bit of arrogance, and points out things which to his exam are not quite right. I know what he is like so I live with it. I always get the last laugh when i say to him that the difference between he and I is I do things and people pay me for it ( well, some anyway). People parting with money for what you have done is the final answer....the vote of confidence. The more votes of confidence the more the potential for arrogance.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Keep drinking wine until your ego disappears, then go from there.
Winemane,
Can't someone be arrogant and relatively unskilled?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Yes indeed. You can be arrogant, totally incompetent and still make a fortune. Just ask Bill Gates.
IF you were trully arrogant, you would not condescend to post on knots.
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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LOL
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