Ever since I joined Knots I’ve been moving to learn hand tool skills and acquire the associated hardware. After 8 years using only machine tools, the experience of incorporating many hand tool processes has been a pleasurable education. My pieces incorporate both additional construction techniques but also that hand-made “look” – evidence of the maker at work with less of a factory-made aspect.
I’ve bought the best I could afford whilst trying to keep the law of diminishing returns in mind. So Two Cherries chisels , for example, are fine for workaday chiselling tasks but I found that Blue Spruce DT chisels enabled much finer and more accurate paring of that fundamental joint. A Wenzloff saw proved so much easier to start and steer than the Stanley or the Bahco saws I had, leaving an accurate and fine cut.
But the real revelation to me has been in handplanes. I started with a number of Veritas planes – a small BU smoother, a bullnose, a large shoulder plane; eventually also a jointer, a block and a scraper plane too. These work well; but then I bought a Marcou S15A…………………..
It was Derek Cohen’s initial investigation that persuaded me. Although the investigation concluded that a Veritas BU smoother could do just about as well as a Marcou S15A, the description of the Marcou qualities in handling very difficult hardwoods persuaded me to buy one. I wasn’t disappointed.
This was the start of a Marcou addiction. I find planes (including spokeshaves) the most useful of all the hand tools . They are a lot faster and more controllable than a sander at removing wood from the right places to the right degree. The Marcous have weight, rigidity and very fine tolerances, so they deal easily with the nastiest of woods, of which I use a lot. (Teak and ornery iroko this month, for a number of Adirondack chairs).
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I now own 5 Marcous and I’m about to acquire a sixth, the splendid S55A high angle BD smoother pictured. I’m expecting this to contain the sum-total of Philip’s experience and acquired knowledge in plane making to date. Although the plane costs 3 or 4 times the cost of a similar plane from LN, LV or Clifton, I think I’m getting a real bargain. These are Holtey’s without the obsessive levels of internal polishing and knurl-perfecting but otherwise the same – except they are ¼ the price!
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There is also a series of a new type of plane (to Philip) being developed and built for me at this moment. I believe these will represent a unique offering in the world of planes for, as far as I know, such planes can only be bought from the very cheapest end of the market. Indeed, a set served as starting-patterns for the new Marcou versions.
Well, this set will be revealed in due course. Meanwhile feast your eyes on that S55A. (Yes, this is a tool gloat). J
Lataxe, a very satisfied customer (albeit a poorer one).
Replies
Lataxe - I'm one of those people that a lot of WWs that are into "cheap!" sneer at - I have a $3000 handplane in use in the shop that is unmatched at handling highly curled maple, which I work with a lot. That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate antique Stanleys, LVs, and LNs - those are also in regular use in the shop.
I'm not sure what Philip's got going, but since you're a Brit (hope I've got that right!), I'd highly encourage you to find an antique, pre-WWII Norris with its original blade. It'll probably cost you about 600-800 pounds, but it'll be far cheaper than having someone make you a new infill plane.
The point is that there is something about having a wooden bed surrounded by a steel sole and sides that really, really works on nasty grain. I've seen others attribute this performance to blade angle and weight, but my experience has suggested otherwise - I've several BU and BD planes with high-angle frogs, and they simply don't do as well on the afore-mentioned curly maple. The Steiner and Sauer infill smoother I don't have to think about or watch when I pick it up and swipe it casually down a piece of that maple - I know from past experience that it will not tear-out, period. I can't say that about my LN BU smoother - it sometimes leaves a nasty track of tear-out that takes quite a bit of careful planing or even scraping to get back out.
I've seen others attribute this performance to blade angle and weight, but my experience has suggested otherwise - I've several BU and BD planes with high-angle frogs, and they simply don't do as well on the afore-mentioned curly maple.
That rules out the angle theory but not the weight. You're comparing apples to oranges. The LN and LV do not have the weight/mass the Marcou's have.
The Steiner and Sauer infill smoother I don't have to think about or watch when I pick it up and swipe it casually down a piece of that maple - I know from past experience that it will not tear-out, period.
Ditto for me - but I have the Marcou S20A. I'm no shill for Philip but I can tell you first hand that my plane does the same thing - and I work a good bit of curly and birdseye maple myself. I am a big fan of Steiner and Sauer but I believe Philip's stuff is on par performance-wise and quite a bit cheaper. And the wait list is not near so long. I would highly recommend you get your hands on one - you just may be a convert to an all-metal plane ;-)
Cheers,
Lee
"That rules out the angle theory but not the weight. You're comparing apples to oranges. The LN and LV do not have the weight/mass the Marcou's have."
True enough. However, it also doesn't seem to matter how much weight I put on top of the plane, either. And without doubt, the downward pressure I'm able to apply with my body weight vastly exceeds the weight of the plane.
It will never be possible, in my opinion, to adequately control the variables between two different manufacturers of the same style of plane, much less different styles between different manufacturers. That's typically why I ignore the performance aspects of tool reviews, particularly hand tools by reputable manufacturers. It's also why I and others have been hammering the FWW editors about including tool reviews as the headline, front cover content of the magazine - it's highly inappropriate for FWW, and it's just barely appropriate for the junk WW mags on the newstands.
True enough. However, it also doesn't seem to matter how much weight I put on top of the plane, either. And without doubt, the downward pressure I'm able to apply with my body weight vastly exceeds the weight of the plane.
I guess what I meant to say was more of an issue of inertia than the weight, per se. Once the plane gets going, there is no hesitation whatsoever when difficult grain is encountered. WHile the LV bevel up planes are nice ( I have the BU smoother) there are times when you hit a knot or some switchback grain and the blade just sort of skips over the bad spots, kind of like chatter. The Marcou blows right through, much as I'm sure the S & S does. Kind of hard to stop a freight train ;).
I'd be interested in hearing more about your S & S planes, although I don't want to take away from Lataxe's thread.
Lee,You propose to DK:"I'd be interested in hearing more about your S & S planes, although I don't want to take away from Lataxe's thread".The thread may wander where it will, as all worthwhile conversations do. Anyway, I too would like to hear more about the design-aspects of the various "state-of-the-art" planes. There seem to be a number of design-directions (for want of a better term) some of which are based on very good copies of the best old designs, some based on small variations on those designs and some that border on revolution rather than evolution (eg that Bridge City plane that varies the bed as well as the blade angle).The beauty of infills in undeniable; but both Karl Holtey and Philip seem to be moving away from infill on purely functional grounds: knobs and totes only are wood and all the working parts are in metal because of it's greater strength and stability. Yet DK mentions a certain ability of the S&S planes that he attributes (I think) to the wooden stuffing.....?I wonder if the plane makers (and maybe some users) could be enticed to begin a conversation about some of these design-aspects, along with their advantages and drawbacks? Lataxe, in awe of engineers.
"The beauty of infills in undeniable; but both Karl Holtey and Philip seem to be moving away from infill on purely functional grounds: knobs and totes only are wood and all the working parts are in metal because of it's greater strength and stability. Yet DK mentions a certain ability of the S&S planes that he attributes (I think) to the wooden stuffing.....?"
Indeed, I think this is so, but I cannot prove it. What I notice is that it's very, very difficult to get one of my infills to chatter; there are certain situations where I can absolutely count on my Lie-Nielsens or antique Stanleys to ring, squeal and chatter. The reason I attribute this to the wooden bed is that in theory, at least, wood doesn't transmit vibrations nearly as well as metal - I've the same observations about my wooden planes - they generally just don't chatter, though on most of the antique ones I've got they've been seasonally tuned and flattened enough times that the mouth gapes pretty wide, and their performance isn't good on tricky grain.
However, I should say that I rather doubt that someone that invests in one of Philip's all-metal varieties would ever be unhappy with it. There is definitely something you're paying for by buying at the top end - fit, finish and performance. In my opinion, the very large premium that Karl charges is largely based on cosmetics, but that doesn't mean that he's not a fanatic about the machining tolerances that go into his planes, either.
DK, if I may just snivel quietly in here whilst Lataxe is asleep....(Early morning there).
"Yet DK mentions a certain ability of the S&S planes that he attributes (I think) to the wooden stuffing." and you say
"Indeed, I think this is so, but I cannot prove it. What I notice is that it's very, very difficult to get one of my infills to chatter;"Well, there is a way to Disprove it-try a custom made bevel up smoother and see if that chatters (;)
Actually I think the main factors that prevent chatter are technical rather than wood being used for stuffing or if the plane is stuffed at all.Anyone going to the trouble of building a full on traditional infill or all metal exotic is bound to ensure that the (thicker) blade is well bedded and properly supported as far as possible and where it counts (at the lower end)by a mouth ramp and or further back up. Top that with a cap that applies suitable pressure , a thick flat sole and appropriate blade angle and there you have it.Talking of blade support: here is a good score for the bevel up as it can be supported almost to the very tip,allowing a narrow mouth opening, unlike the bevel down, which has unsupported overhang which is increased with blade thickness which also necessitates a wide mouth opening.
It could be argued that wood has some sort of dampening effect , or anti harmonics function-but on the other hand it is best to ensure that there is nowt to dampen in the first place.
And if one believes that wood "does the trick", then how much better would a brass "infill" do? I mean a plane that has a thick brass sole which in fact also forms the body of the plane, and not a plane that is too heavy because of the brass. Philip Marcou
Edited 11/24/2008 1:12 am by philip
Philip,
On a bevel down plane, a lever cap (no chip breaker) to within 1/4" - 1/8" of the edge of the iron...but still evaluating...
Best wishes,
Metod
Philip - I've two bevel-up smoothers, though not high-end custom planes. One's a Lee-Valley, one's a Lie-nielsen. Both of them have been fettled (by me) to gets as close a fit between the blade and frog, and the frog and bed, as I can. Both will chatter in certain circumstances - typically gnarly, highly figured wood.
The reason I attribute some of the performance to a wooden bed is that, if the blade is struck with a small hammer, all of my all-metal planes will ring, none of the wooden-bedded ones will. I cannot say whether this has anything to do with the ability of the wood to damp vibrations; it's possible that the reason has more to do with the slight compressibility of wood, and when the lever cap (or wedge, in the case of the all-wood versions) is cinched down tightly, the wood gives a bit and seats to the iron better.
But again, I've no way to prove this, though I've an engineering education. That said, I rather doubt anyone that purchases a hand plane for over $600 that is made by a careful galoot is going to be dissatissfied with the plane's performance. Arguments over small nuances is splitting hairs; the difference really only becomes obvious with a poorly-tuned antique Stanely compared to the new products by L-V, L-N, and possibly Clifton, and certainly compared to the high-end products by modern, low-production makers.
You're right about the ringing, and stuffing will mute that (especially with MDF rather than rosewood). Anyway, the pitch you hear is the resonant frequency, typically up in the kiloHertz range. For this to relate to chatter you'd have to plane at a comparable rate and get the blade "singing" and vibrating. My understanding is that chatter is much more related to blade flexing. New thick blades supported along their length by a 9 pound metal body (my S20A) aren't going to bend before I dislocate my shoulder.Best,
---Pedro
"You're right about the ringing, and stuffing will mute that (especially with MDF rather than rosewood). Anyway, the pitch you hear is the resonant frequency, typically up in the kiloHertz range. For this to relate to chatter you'd have to plane at a comparable rate and get the blade "singing" and vibrating. "
Pedro - there are many, many resonant frequencies to any assembled structure, including a plane. However, if the plane cannot be made to ring, there's a high likelyhood that the whole frequency range is highly damped. I know this from experience - the squeal that my all-metal planes produce when chattering across end-grain or highly-figured wood is quite loud.
David,There seems to be at least two types of chatter: that caused by the vibration of the blade and/or other parts of the plane; and that caused when the whole plane skips-digs-skips repeatedly across the surface of the wood, more often seen when spokeshaving.The Marcous never seem to suffer either type of chatter; I assume it's a combination of weight, thick blade and tight tolerances in the engineering.I have a well-made and maintained Veritas BU smoother that will skip-dig chatter on some gnarly grained stuf, especially if its inherently hard, such as that iroko I'm busy with just now. There is no vibration in the plane or blade itself nor any of that higher-frequency chatter. It happens when the cut is set to be very light. I presume it's lack of weight in the plane body, so that the iroko continually "rejects" the tiny projection of the blade. Pressing down very hard does help.I used to have a Record (the modern blue things) that chattered at every opportunity, despite hours of fettling the horrible thing. The blade vibrated because it was thin and couldn't be got to sit well with the frog et al, despite all the flattening work I did with the bits and pieces.With your infills, I'd be surprised if there was any inherent tendency to chatter in the plane parts - chatter that the infill wood somehow damps. To be honest, I was surprised to hear that your LN will chatter - unless you mean it does the skip-dig thing rather than the higher vibration of the blade or innards......?Lataxe
"With your infills, I'd be surprised if there was any inherent tendency to chatter in the plane parts - chatter that the infill wood somehow damps. To be honest, I was surprised to hear that your LN will chatter - unless you mean it does the skip-dig thing rather than the higher vibration of the blade or innards......?"
Well, that's one of the reasons I can't prove my conjecture that wooden beds help damp chatter - none of my infills or wooden planes do this!
I've had both my BU and BD all-metal smoothers develop chatter, even in relatively soft woods. It's usually accompanied by a rather loud and unpleasant screech, and the chatter marks are really close together - I'd guess closer than 1/64". I really can't say whether it's vibration of the cutter and frog, or perhaps the skip-dig thing you refer to. It's clear from experience, though, that blade sharpness has little to do with it - fresh from the honing stone and sharp enough to cut granite, and it still will do this, particularly on end grain and burled wood (which, in a way, is a type of end-grain).
That's OK, though, the BU and BD all-metal smoothers perform exceptionally well in the vast majority of the wood that I put them to - it's only in sertain circumstances that I'm forced to break out the big guns, though sometimes I use the infills for ordinary planing jobs because they fit my hand so well. ;-)
I've never tried an infill, but that Marcou doesn't chatter, not ever. I've used it for everything from dimensioning to smoothing on poplar to birds eye maple. Never gotten chatter, and at 57 degrees, never gotten tear out. Makes smoothing kind of idiot proof. Which suits me very well thank you :)
---Pedro
By the way, is this beauty yours?
View Image
No, but it is nice. I have a set of matching custom planes I had Konrad make. It took a year, but it was worth the wait. They consist of an un-handled 7" long smoother, a 9" long Norris A6 copy, and a 14" long Norris A1 copy. All have Naval brass sides, steel soles, filled with ebony, and a tung-oil and wax finish (no shellac). All have custom-fitted blades for a zero side-play fit to the mouth (this, by the way, is why the adjusters on Norris planes without the original, fitted blade don't work too well).
There's no doubt that Konrad does a beautiful job with his film finishes, and brand new, the planes are stunning. However, I've a number of Norris, Spiers and Mathieson antiques, and I've noted that film finishes, no matter how well done initially, don't wear very gracefully. Any nick or rub-through with use gets accumulated grime or dirt in it and gets a good deal darker than the surrounding wood. I bought these to use, so I asked Konrad to do these with this finish as a custom option. Konrad told me he actually likes this finish very much on the plane, but most of his customers want shiny, so almost all of his production is french polished.
DK,I have contemplated an infill plane from time to time. Ray Iles now does a couple; and an S&S jointer might be VERY nice, if the money could be found at the bottom of the teapot or the pig. However, one reads of "issues" with wooden fillings......Mr Holtey has opined here and there that the expansion/shrinkage of wood can be a problem in difficult climates or other circumstances causing the humidity to change. He pins his planes through a hollow tube going through the wooden stuff to obviate the problem..... but the stuffing will still shrink/expand should the humidity swing about a lot.I know Philip had a one-off problem with a stuffing that went from New Zealand to one of the very dry US States. However, only one or two of his are stuffed so it's not really an issue for him, I believe.Just this morning I was reading a David Charlesworth article concerning him making an infill plane from a kit. He had a lot of problems but eventually made one that worked very well. However, that too developed a small glitch when the stuffing behind the blade expanded a bit and pushed the blade off the lower metal part of the bed, causing a degree of chatter until he figured out what had happened.******All this sounds bad for infills but I'm sure the problem is minimal-to-nonexistent unless one lives in a very variable climate. I'm presuming you yourself have had no such issues with yours..........?Lataxe, really looking for an excuse to buy one example of a stuffed thang (eventually).
"All this sounds bad for infills but I'm sure the problem is minimal-to-nonexistent unless one lives in a very variable climate. I'm presuming you yourself have had no such issues with yours..........?"
This is my guess - but I think Karl's obsessive (and I do mean obsessive) attention detail has lead him to consider even very minor movement in an infill to be intolerable.
I've had no issues whatsoever with wood movement in the infills I own. That list includes 3 of Konrad Sauer's planes, 8 Antique Norrises, 4 Mathiesons, and 3 Spiers. This is just my thought, but I'm guessing that the straight-grained rosewood that Messrs. Norris, Spiers and Mathieson used on their top-of-the-line planes was very stable indeed. I'm thinking that the potential for cracked front buns and out-of-square sides is largely a matter of rapid and extreme changes in humidity and temperature. In other words, putting British infills that have sat in a humid workshop for the last 100 years into a steel shipping container in August and sending it around the world might result in problems - and it certainly should not surprise one that would be the case.
I'm really serious about finding a good infill from one of the late 19th and early 20th century makers - just talk to someone that knows antique infills to tell you what to look for on E-Bay UK, or go to a local tool swap meet. One in superb condition will cost you far less than almost anyone except Ron Brese, and Ron's planes are not the same as dovetailed infill. That's not a swipe at Ron, by the way, but his manufacturing process is considerably less labor intensive, and the final product is not traditional. That doesn't mean his products aren't worth owning, it's just that you're buying something different than an antique dovetailed plane, or one by the modern makers.
What I'd say about the antique Norrises is that the only modern makers of this style of plane that are finished and fitted to the same degree are Konrad Sauer, Karl Holtey, and Bill Carter. Some of the less-expensive infills made by some Brits lack a good deal of refinement in bedding the iron, flattening the sole, and the file work on the mouth. Obviously, my assessment was based on handling a limited number of those planes, so perhaps I had some less-than-typical examples, but I've heard others comment similarly as well.
As to Mr. Marcou's offerings - I'm strongly tempted, they look extremely well made, but I would have to have him make a custom plane for me. I'm a traditionalist, and a lot of his tote designs don't please me. That said, every other detail of his planes are quite beautiful.
Lataxe old chum,
I saw a Stanley at a swap meet the other day that had black plastic totes just like that one of yours.
Ray hahahahahahha
Ray,Black plastic totes? Shurely shome mishtake as that is highly polished Blackwood from Afrique - although such exotica does not penetrate to your backwood pr'haps? You will, rather, be familiar with the likes o' hick(ory) wood and similar.No, no. For plastic totes you must go here:http://www.holteyplanes.com/projects.htmLataxe, who can't wait to get his graspers on that shiney thang (the one with wooden handles - the other requires one to be a banker of the naughty big-bonus variety).
Lataxe & Ray,
Think of plastic as the environmentally responsible version of blackwood. It is available locally (wherever you may be) and is readily available, with no danger of running out.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Lataxe,
"Black plastic totes? Shurely shome mishtake as that is highly polished Blackwood from Afrique "
Har, I knew that'd rattle the ol' dog's chain!
Ray, who can be a rabble-rouser hisself, betimes
Talk about eye-candy! Philip and Ron's planes always remind me that someday I will have to tackle a metal-bodied (possibly infill) plane. The impecable detail... the polish... the contrast... the raved about performance...
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Lataxe: "The Marcous have weight, rigidity and very fine tolerances, so they deal easily with the nastiest of woods"
I think you should have gotten one of these to surface that bubinga table we made.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,I woulda come over with the Marcous to give you and Morgan a hand with that chatty monster if ye'd justa asked; it would only have cost you the first class return ticket and a few bike rides (inclusive of cafe bills, which can be high for an ex-Lune lad). Of course, them Marcous weigh a bit and there might have been trouble with the luggage alowance.You could always approach young Philip with a gleam in your eye (not that kind of gleam), although he might want to swap you one of his beauties for that top rather than for dollahs! He is a wood-lover of the most avid kind.Lataxe
Note buy his on admistion this is an addiction, and as we all know addiction is BAD. So I think he needs to break his addiction.
Step one, admit to being addicted (so far so go)
Step 2 remove all temptation from your area (so box them up and ship them all to "Doug Meyer" Lazy K, South Lyon MI.)
Step 3 get into a recovery program.
Being as nice guy and all I am willing to pay the bill on shiping (aint I nice?) So just let me know what help I can give you with Step 2. :)
Doug M
Doug,You are welcome to all my Marcous - if you can get them from my warm, very-much-alive hand. The other hand will be graspin' your neck-part and shakin' it. We addicts have the strength of ten men, should a do-gooder seek to take our drug-of-choice off to the pound.*****Meanwhile I plan extensive exercises of the planing muscles tomorrow, as the day is forecast dry and cold, which keeps down the sweat. Too much sweat dripped in the plane mechanism may require it to be polished, which gives the wrong impression altogether to those eyeing my beauties enviously over the hedge. One of them may offer me a glass case with green baize lining, to keep them all in - the indignity! They are users!!That teak and even the iroko are quaking in the woodstore. They know they will be smoothed and none of that raggedy look allowed.Lataxe, plane loco.
Lataxe,
If I had one of those gorgeous instruments, I wouldn't be able to force my self to use it. I would never sully it on a piece of wood. I would handle it only with cotton gloves and just admire it.Rich
Rich,
You may travel here and I will allow you to fondle all six - for a small fee equivalent to the price of a 7th. :-)
Lataxe, a planepimp
First Class? Is that bloody all? Not a problem at all. Sell me another table and we will build the cost in. If you are 5'3 or 6'1" I have a few bikes hanging out jus waitin for a mad dog to throw a leg over. I dare say Chris found the rocks a bit interesting at first, but they grow on you <grin> which is better than growing on them. <double grin> Victuals on the patio tend to fair well, the wine cellar is stocked and I love a good black and tan, heavy on the black. Just bring that wee bit of scrap iron along, but don't take yur eyes off it, some of my cabinets seem to pirate things unbeknownst to me.
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Ah gorgeous!
But I've seen photos of Philip's new creations, those very secretive ones. So now I know what you're up to. I also made the mistake of inquiring as to price, found the answer to be less than expected, and saved the email... not a good sign for my future finances. This forum, and you and Philip in particular seem to promote tool lust.
Anyway, six? Have you taken any pictures of the whole family together? Why six? Which are your favorites? Have you thought of a comparo between various models?
---Pedro
Pedro,
Those new Marcou creations are not so much a secret as “in development”. I imagine Philip is reluctant to show them until the final versions have been designed and made. Also, I need to get my sticky mits on them so I can give them a proper workout on the little boxes and drawers – for this is what they are primarily intended for in the Lataxe shed.
It seems my request of the lad to make improved versions of a set of cheap ‘uns has stimulated his designer-gene somewhat, so I expect to see a proliferation of models appear on his website before too long. Those he is making for me are basically tiny versions of the common plane types – smoother, scraper, chisel, rabbet and BU multi-purpose. However, there seems to be scope for making variations on their theme……
As to your tool-lust – hah! Saying it were me wot done it to you is like pretending you only desire Italian ladies because I mentioned Gina. In fact, you are a terrible tool-luster in your jeans, just like the rest of us. Anyway, we addicts like to see others who are hooked, as then we feel relieved that the accusatory eyes of the various WW priests and witch-finder generals may choose to stare viciously at some other poor soul.
Why six? It’s a purely random number N that I inserted into this sentence, often spoken to the ladywife: “I need N Marcous because………” The first two (S15A and M20A) would have been “it”; but then some became available in Blighty following their review and test for a British magazine by David Charlesworth. As these were prototypes and had already been imported through customs, the price was irresistible.
In practice this multiplicity does offer advantages. I seem these days to have three Marcous set up with various blade angles and depths to deal in rote with what’s essentially the smoothing of just-thicknessed planks, glued-up panels and so forth. I use a lot of timbers with difficult grain so there is typically:
* An S45 (small/lighter BD 45 degree) or S50A (small/lighter BD 50 degree) to take the thicker initial cuts, usually at an angle to the grain.
* The S15A (large/heavy BU 45 degrees cambered) to take fine/final cuts of well-behaved areas of wood.
* The S20A (large/heavy BU 62 degrees) to take fine/final cut of the nasty areas of wood.
Of course, one S15A would do all this by merely swapping out the blades for ones of different cutting angles and varying the depth-of-cut & the mouth opening. It’s just a lot easier and quicker to have 3 planes set up for the different smoothing tasks.
The M20A is used rarely as a shooting plane; but mostly with a high angle blade set for a very fine cut to smooth large tabletops. Its immense weight, momentum and rigidity seem to cut through any type of nasty grain, including the transitions between jointed planks, knots and areas of wild grain. It’s the perfect tool for flattening/smoothing large planked tabletops of naughty-wood; and could only be improved in that role by being 15 or 20 inches long rather than the circa 11 inches it is.
I tell myself that the S55A to be acquired will do the small/light plane initial “thick” smoothing cuts on difficult planks such as that iroko or sapele, which have roe grain and come with tear out from the thicknesser. But really I could just swap out blades with back-bevels in the S45 or the S50 ……
So, 6 planes are not really “needed” but do allow great convenience. I suppose I coulda spent the money on any number of other things – but for some reason these superbly-engineered, wonderfully functional items crept to the top of my pocket-money list. The degenerate gambling and the gold lame suit will just have to wait.
Lataxe, plane-greedy
Oh very nice! Did you buy those shavings as props or make them yourself planing your workbench? If you put little magnets on the front and back of each plane in figure 4 you could pull them along like a Thomas the train set.Obviously I'm spending too much time playing with my kids. The rest of my time is spent (when not at work) cutting a pattern in the middle of a 1.5 inch red oak plank. I'm trying really hard to do it with hand tools, but that jigsaw looks better every hour. See, I don't have a thin blade for the bow saw so I'm stuck using a brace and a thick bow saw blade to approximate a curve with a series of straight cuts. I'm starting to feel stupid.Anyway, congratulations on your new acquisition. I am envious. Perhaps I'll raid my kids college fund.
---Pedro
Go ahead and raid your kids' college fund - trades are where it's at nowadays. Sure schools offer education in trades, but if you really want to learn a trade, you apprentice! Besides, with a Marcou, think of how much better you can teach your kids to do woodwork!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
so if I buy another Marcou, I'm actually benefitting my children's future! I like it. If we're able to raise a round of funding for the new company, I may just do this by way of celebration...
Most of us get pretty mad when we scratch the soles or nick the blades of our Veritas and Lie Neilsen planes. I can't imagine what you would do if you committed a like sin (or what Philip would do to you)!
Edit: (To prevent this, it would be best to ship them to me for safe-keeping!)
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 11/20/2008 11:47 am by flairwoodworks
Lataxe,
Congratulations and best wishes for happy use of those fine planes.
Now, thinking Green, if ye have no use for any o' them old thangs I'd be more than happy to recycle them for ya, plastic knobs and totes too.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi David
Those are truly beautiful planes. Philip deserves a pat on the back for his skills both as designer and as maker. And you deserve a pat for your discerning taste!
I have always had a softer spot for the round topped variety. Indeed, that was the first design that Philip made.
Stunning.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Lataxe , This is really something here on Knots we treat these new arrivals and such as if they were little newborns with proper congrats and such .
Those are the first pictures I have seen that actually showed shavings , nice
dusty, who would trade my firstborn for a mad cow
Lataxe,
Nice collection. Now I don't have to feel guilty only owning two of Monsieur Marcou's most beautiful and masterfully useful tools.
Neil
Neil,That guilt-emotion is for pilgrims, as your saying goes. :-) Now is the time to get more Marcous, as if you save your dollahs instead them banker-men will just devalue them away on their yacht or french mistress.Pedro might feel a momentary twinge of guilt after he sells his first-born to get plane-money. But shurely that child will be far better off with the rich folk in Californy, who will dote on the mite? And Pedro will be able to plane 1/4" shavings off big knots as much as he likes, since when he blunts a blade he may merely reach for another plane.As to Chris thinking that a bit of batter & scratch on the Marcous is even noticed - ha! They are sweat-dripped and even dinged here and there, as they are for use, not the glass case of a fondling fetishist. Mind you, they ARE fondlable, especially around the totes that DK has taken agin'. Of course, Chris may come here to polish them for me any time he cares to(although he will be body-searched before leaving).Those shavings on the bench are from my chest of woodworking props, I got them from Derek Cohen and they weren't cheap, seeing as how they're purfek examples. I also buy bags of multi-coloured sawdust to hang from the dust extractor.....Lataxe, who has seen-off the most raggedy-surfaced pieces of iroko this very day, with that S20A.
Well perhaps yer right..my brother who is the historian in the family tells me that we are descended from the pilgrims along one line..but Scottish along my father's so when the pilgrim guilt gets too much a few drams of the single malt usually takes care of that...or a couple bottles of Belgian ale..or...etc....I do love those planes and use them often, sometimes just planing for planing's sake...beats running five miles in the snow and ice...don't think however I'll be buying another soon as these two suit my purposes well...if I feel the future need I'll just download your pictures and attach them to me wall...
Neil who has enough planes...for the moment
Can anyone provide a ballpark figure as to how long one of these (infill or not) beautiful planes takes to build with all the proper tools?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Could be worse, one side of my family got here on the Mayflower, the other side came from Germany after the war.
So when one side gets together we have lot of food to eat but feel bad about it, when the other side gets together they plan an invasion of France.
Doug M
Chris,I was reading an article about building a kit version of an infill plane in volume 3 of David Charlesworth collected articles from Furniture & Cabinetmaking magazine. The figures quoted by the kit supplier for the various stages of making the plane summed a few hours. Mr Charlesworth, who was something of a novice but with some metalwork and a lot of woodwork experience, reckoned the problems were legion. It took him over ten times the supplier's estimate of time to finish hs plane. Along the way he had a lot of telephone advice from various plane-making experts, including Karl Holtey, which wouldn't be available to the average kit-builder.Consider that the making of the kit-parts must also take a lot of skill and time......In short, the number of hours it takes to make one o' them beauties varies very much with the skill, experience and knowledge of the maker. This is true for the making of anything; but one gets the impression that plane-making to the high standards necessary to achieve a proper functioning instrument requires those abilities in spades, as well as some inate talent perhaps .Finally, some plane makers do seem to put a lot of obsessive time and effort into achieving not just an excellent function but also a Total Gleam. Some, for semi-idelogical reasons, eschew any machine work, which causes processes like lapping parts flat to take 3 minutes short of forever.****In the end, the market dictates: that gleamer is worth what someone is willing to pay, not how many hours it took to make. Some will pay a great deal for Holtey-gleam and (by implication) for all them polishing hours. Personally I will pay a lot-but-a-lot-less for Marcou-gleam, which is a mere two levels of brightness less and effects the function not one bit.But that's me and others have a different set of buying criteria.Lataxe, who doesn't want to feel afaid to spoil the gleam of his own planes.
Chris - I've built a couple, both dovetailed smoothers (and no, I'm not posting pictures - there are some things that come out of my shop that don't represent the best in workmanship!). My thought is that it depends on what you start with. If you build an infill smoother from a casting without an adjuster, I'd say you're looking at about 25 hours. If you're building a dovetailed plane from surface-ground flat bar stock (and you've a metal cutting bandsaw), I'd guess 50-100 hours, depending on complexity, whether it has straight or curved sides, and whether you're making your own blade.
A heck of a lot the time necessary to do one of these and get a good result is very, very careful filing with very fine files. Particularly around the mouth, there's no margin for error - if you go too far in one place, you'll have to file the whole mouth to that level, and that can quickly get out of control to the point where you've a very gappy plane. Another challenge is precision drilling through the sides to pin the infill, and making precision jigs for piening the sides to the sole.
Konrad Sauer could, of course, beat my time by hours and hours, but he's probably done a thousand of them or so over the last 7 years.
That always seems to be the case - the details demand the most time.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Konrad Sauer stated that he averages about 5 planes per month full-time. So 4 days, but no word on how long that day is (grin).
This is what he stated last weekend in Berea.
Mike
Mike,
If he said that, I'd suspect that he's batching them to be more efficient.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Philip,
Your work definately seems to be right up there with Konrad's work. I enjoyed Derek's dissection of your planes. Do you feel that you can produce a plane as efficiently as Konrad?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
You ask if I can produce a plane as efficiently as Konrad- interesting question which requires a detailed knowledge of his methods.
Generally speaking if he uses a milldrill or small milling machine to cut dovetails then we are on the same playing field. Doing them by hand i.e with files and hacksaws,cold chisels etc is not efficient and there will be imperfections. If a CNC set up is used with a mill then that is in the next league.
There is the question of making all the parts oneself , or having at least some of them made by other parties.In theory out sourcing would be more efficient but there are certain limitations, some of which are related to the fact that we are not producing thousands of planes a month. I prefer to do all myself except for heat treatment and name plate engraving.
Anyone wanting to make planes without a metal work lathe is immediately at a disadvantage, thereby being limited to stock nuts and bolts and inability to make custom items such as cap screws, adjuster wheels etc., which would have to be made by someone else-okay enough if you are making many planes all exactly the same.
Another major consideration is the use of a surface grinder- this allows one to machine parts such as soles and blades to precise thickness and width, not to mention grinding bevels, levelling joints, squaring up sides, flattening bottoms and a host of other jobs-ya gotta have one-or else the product shows the lack of....
Another consideration is the number of parts contained in each plane. I may be wrong, but I think that one of my smoothers has more parts than a traditional infill, especially if there is an adjustable mouth-so I need to spin wheels and dials faster and smarter...
Ofcourse, with time, one should become more efficient through mere repetition and the scheming up of smarter ways to do things-same thing happens in woodwork unless you are a follower of the Taliban and therefore mind-locked. So if Konrad has made 500 planes and I have only made a paltry 100 it is possible that he is more efficient.
And there is the question of those dovetails themselves-I started off with traditional double flared ones but soon changed to what I am doing now-waaaay more efficient since there is no filing at all and no need to take precautions against distortion due to the need to do excessive peening but I am not giving away all secrets so suffice to say that I can now guarantee flawless dovetails each and every time-airtight, no gaps in or out.
Looking at knobs and totes: clearly it is easier/more efficient to turn a knob rather than hand work a bun-unless you have the means to machine the profile like K. Holtey does. A closed tote, with ovular cross section requires much hand work even if one has routed much of it.
So there are a few thoughts.Philip Marcou
Wow! Multiplied by the average price for one of his planes, and he makes well into the six figures. Good for him!
Hi Chris
Have a read of my review of Philips S15 smoother. This contains a pictorial of the machining he does. Very time intensive.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Marcou%20S15%20BU%20Smoother.html
No doubt dovetailing the traditional (machine-free) way is faster for some. Have a look at Peter McBride's wonderful tutorial ..
http://www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/bench_rebate1.htm
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
What an amazing link, as in most things, it is all about the details and nothing but details to build a plane. I have a completely different apprieciation after reading this!
Morgan
(Who does not help falling down the slope....) <!----><!----><!---->
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