See how this fits in your hat…
You work for a company for twenty+ years. For the first fifteen it is a family owned company. You work hard and are treated like a member of the family. Then, as the owners/founders of the company get old they sell the company to an investment firm. At first it appears to be no more than a scam to place control of the company into their son’s hand’s without having to pay inherentance(sp) taxes. But then this investment firm sells out to another which buys several other companies in the industry and turns your company into part of a large corporation.
After a couple of years it it obvious that the people in charge of this corporation have no idea what they are doing. Decisions are being made and then un-made. No one knows where they are going. Then, in what you know with your twenty+ years of experience to be the traditional slow time of the year in addition to the down-turn in the construction/housing market, the corporation begins a hiring binge.
Six weeks after the hiring binge they call you, with your twenty years with the company, several others who have anywhere from the twenty years you have all the way down to five years plus the dozen new hires and tell you you’re laid off.
!!!?
So now I find myself with no income. Except the whole two weeks severance pay they gave me. (That works out to less than a day’s wages for each year I was there.) Plus the six months unemployment I am planning on soaking them for.
Needless to say I’ve been spending alot of time in the shop. I am very seriously thinking about taking a good paying part-time job – if there is such a thing – and suplementing that income with what I can make in the shop.
My wife supports me 110% (she’s even more pi$$ed off about this than I am) and has told me she would be very disapointed in me if I were to take a job that I wasn’t going to be happy in.
So what do you all think? Can a man make any money at this pursuit? I have a great deal of the skills (I think) and I have a pretty good grasp of the knowledge and tools required to make some pretty fine pieces of furniture and, now, I have the motivation. I’m forty nine years old and not really looking forward to starting over again only to be screwed again somewhere down the road.
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
Replies
Welcome to jobs in the 21st century. If it's not M&A, leveraged buyouts, it's offshoring jobs. Gone are the days of "lifetime employment" (only preceded by loss of gold watches and pension plans).
I know a few people that have made supplemental income in custom woodworking. I know a lot more that are still paying off their IRS debts.
Chuck,
I'm sorry for the way you were treated. That's the way it is these days with"predatory capatailsm."
Remember: You are not your job. You are much more than that and the job was just that, a job. I know it's tough to understand and you want to get back at the bast*rds who did this to you and your family. The best way to do that is to live well.
You have a great opportunity here. Don't let anger about something completely out of your control cause you to miss this chance.
Check around, you might be eligible for some "out sourcing" help, or hit the library and pick up some books. Find something you are passionate about. Go into it with your eyes open and realistic expectations. Work hard, be kind to your loved ones and have some fun.
Good luck, buddy, you'll be fine.
Chuck,
Sorry to hear about your layoff. I've been downsized twice and it's not fun.
If your wife is employed and you can survive on her income, it may be a good time to give woodworking a shot. But, no matter what you do, it is pretty much starting over. So, if you decide to go for it, look at your market, decide if it needs something you can provide and develop a plan. I considered it when I was looking after my second layoff, and talked to some guys that were in the business. Most said not to expect to make a ton of money, but that it could be very rewarding otherwise. There have been many discussions here on Knots regarding the business of woodworking and the pros most always advise that while you need some passion, it is a business (not a hobby). If you have the personality to approach it that way, you may be successful. I wish I had given it a go when I was "between assignments", but I eventually got an offer to go back to work doing what I've always done, and I folded like a cheap camera. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.
Mike
Hey Man,
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
Bull Feathers!
You gotta heart don't ya? Go with it. Do what it's telling you. Your favorite lady supports you. That's THE most important thing. Oh ya, and we do too.
You're forty-nine and got the world by the you know what. Go for it! Whatta got to lose? Who knows, you might not get rich but you could be happy......
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Chuck,
From time to time there have been some interesting threads about this dilemma, so it'd be worthwhile to do a search for them. Really briefly, I'd say that you need to consider these 2 questions:
1. I'll wager that your woodworking skills are good enough, and you don't need to worry about that aspect. What you do need to understand clearly is that running a business requires a spectrum of other skills as well. You are responsible for sales, for the bank balance, for customer relations, for managing labor (even if it's only you), and so on. You need to be at least proficient in every aspect of the business, because if any one of them is not covered it will bring everything down eventually.
I've seen a lot of woodworkers start small businesses. I have never yet seen one who closed his shop because his WW skills weren't up to the task. It's the other stuff that gets you.
2. If your wife is with you on this you've got a great advantage. Make a plan together on how you are going to proceed and write down the program and specific goals along with a time line.
Don't waste your energies worrying every day about whether to continue or not. When you reach a set point in the program, say, after the first 6 months, sit down with your wife and analyze the situation. This is the time to make decisions on the next phase.
On a small scale, learn to treat it like a business right from the start. You and your wife are the board of directors, and you need to look at the business impartially from time to time.
If you learn to juggle the different roles successfully, you'll be fine.
You didn't ask for this new situation, but it's what life brought you. Embrace it with both arms.
best of luck,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
I would echo what Ring had to say, I am just ending my second year doing woodworking full time. I have found it to be a tough business to be in but very rewarding in many ways. The first year was bliss, the second year not so much due to the downturn in housing starts and the further flushing of the dollar down the inflation toilet. I make parts and pieces for cabinet shops (corbels, valances, wine racks, etc).
If you can get by on less money for a while I highly recommend it, as long as you can deal with the extra hats that David (Ring) pointed out.
I wish you the best of luck.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Chuck, I too say go for it! I've been at it for 17 yrs. Good and bad,money & near broke,owe taxes every time you turn around(seems like) too many orders,not enough orders, But...I would'nt trade it for nothing. As long as your good wife is behind you and can help with the $ if needed your going to be O.K. Good luck Rickk
Chuck,
The most important aspect of what you're about to embark on is not your woodworking skills - it's your "hustle." If you've been employed by someone else for 20 years you likely never had to go out and get jobs, sell jobs, and finish and deliver them. That'll be a change. But if you're persistent and a go-getter, you can make it work.
If you're willing to take on odd jobs, one-off work, especially in the early going, there's really quite a bit of that type of stuff to be had. Bookshelves, window seat built-ins, the odd bed and table, repair work to tables and chairs. There are a lot of people out there with small cabinetwork needs but not very many woodworkers willing to say, "Hey, I can do that. Let's sit down and talk about what you want." Larger shops don't want to mess with small jobs but people still need that work done, so that's where you can stand out - if you're willing to deal with the hassles inherent in that level of work.
This is what I've been doing for most of my employment life. The "paychecks" are very often sparse, and they come in erratically. So cut your living expenses, hunker down, and then start asking around at your church, fraternal organization, family and acquaintances if anyone needs any cabinetwork done. One job often leads to another, and then you're off and rolling.
Good luck, Zolton
* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Chuck: Talk to an employment lawyer and see if he can negotiate a reasonable severence package. The bigger the company, the more willing they usually are to make a deal. Two weeks after 20 years is disgraceful.
Rickk said:
(Chuck, I too say go for it! I've been at it for 17 yrs. Good and bad,money & near broke,owe taxes every time you turn around(seems like) too many orders,not enough orders, But...I would'nt trade it for nothing.)
I thank He and I live in parallel Universes. Find a good CPA. I had the good fortune to marry mine in 1985 two years before I became full time self employed.
Chuck:
I would like to add my best wishes to you and success in the years to come. The treatment you received was shabby and I'm sure it will take you some time to really get over it after 20 years of loyal and productive employment. My professional work is management consulting specializing in business strategy and marketing. What this really means that I try to get management to actually stop and think about what they are doing. I see too much action before thought that leads to the sort of experience that you have had. And it makes me sick because it is often very avoidable.
As one door closes, another opens, provided you don't keep staring at the door that has just closed. For that reason, I would think very hard before you consider any action towards your former employer. The law seems to favor the employ-at-will philosophy. A serious legal fight will have a life of its own, be very expensive, and have the effect of bogging you down in the past, just as you should be looking forward. Maybe a value-bet to see if they will part with more severance?
As for a woodworking business, I don't know enough but to quote from Gypsy the musical fable, "You gotta have a gimmick". In other words you must have something that makes you stand out from the crowd. If a customer is looking at Home Depot cabinets, they will not be a good prospect for custom cabinets. You got to find a target audience that is willing to pay you for the work you do.
You are still young and there are plenty of opportunities for you!
With best wishes,
Hastings
Go for it!!! I've been with a fortune 50 company for 9 years. I've survived 7 (count them 7) layoffs including a plant shutdown and a major move. I just survived number 7 and the odds are good I'm not going to make number 8. The nerves are shot at times, and I've been the one to make the decision on who goes and stays and if any are left behind they are walking wounded! I'm considering going a different career. It's a shame though, If I could make it 10 more years, I could qualify for a pension no way that will happen. Best of luck buddy! Hope you make it.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Chuck,
I know you have lots to think about, angles to consider, etc. Others who are in the business will give you lots of encouragement and sound advice. In a previous life I was a general contractor for 20 plus years. A tough life but I loved getting up in the morning. I came across this web sight recently and I thought the overview of running a woodworking business was excellent. The free mini course offered is, I believe, worth your while to take and read. He covers the bases well.
http://1.profitfromwood.com/
good luck,
Randall
Sue the bastards! (Actually, I see the suggestion to visit a lawyer has already been made.) I've been there, and it is the pits.
Look for the money. An acquaintence with typical skills (nothing special, IMHO) has discovered wine cellars. There are companies that supply all need material - http://www.rosehillwinecellars.com/ being an example. I know nothing of this company, just showing them as an example. If your demographics support this, it's likey more profitable than your typical house reno.
Good luck! Doing well is the best revenge.
Hey Chuck welcome to the best job security on earth (self employment)! My education was in accounting and finance and I chose to be a furniture maker almost 30 years ago and just jumped in. I've read all the posts to your note and all have pearls of wisdom that you should consider as you move forward. I would add a couple and then suggest you move methodically in the direction your plan takes you. Pay particular attention to building a sound business plan. Your CPA or Financial Planner can help you with this.
I am female and in the world of woodworking as a business goes, that fact has both helped me and hindered me. Being female has helped me imensely when working directly with individual clients and with interior designers, it's been a little tougher working with home builders and contractors. The key to my success has been marketing marketing marketing! Everything evolves around people knowing what you do. I maintain continuing relationships with designers, architects, interior design firms and the like. I also actively maintain contact with clients for whom I've done work in the past. I recently installed a custom designed front door for a client and included pictures (with permission of course) of it in a communication with past clients and am now working with two previous clients to design and build doors for their homes. I guess I'm just saying that if you just sit back and wait for the work you'll likely starve, if you build systems to always be "out there and visible" you can decide what work you want and how much of it.
Move deliberately, pay attention to every detail and understand that your reputation will make or break you! Give 110%, be on time and deliver more than you promise and don't underprice your work.
Best
Madison2
I've been there, done that, and have the tee shirt.............twice. In my thirty years as an engineer, I had two careers (nuclear and telecommunications) collapse leaving me high and dry.
Reading your post, I get the sense that this has happened fairly recently so I'll offer some thoughts based on my own experiences.
You have a tough road to travel, but you'll make it. Ten years from now, you might even look back on it and decide that it the best time of your life.
Chuck
I have to say working for other people SUCKS!!!
I’ve had somewhere in the order of 60 jobs; only been fired from 1 and hated the lot.
The only time I settled down was 4 years ago when I went self employed as a handyman. Now the only problem I have is finding enough time to get in to my shop.
I’ve spent the last 2 years fitting out a shop in the hope I will one day be able to move in on a permanent work basis.
But it’s not easy the wife wants the £10,000 I sent on the shop back in blood and sweat and bills need to be paid. I now have the tools but don’t have the skills needed to be able to go too much further.
I only have a relatively small shop. So trying to make custom stair cases would be silly but chests to be more accurate reclaimed wood chests have gone like hot cakes. I’m trying to get these things down pat but there still rough around the edges but that doesn’t seem to mater. I made one for a mates wedding present and when the guests saw it I had an order straight away.
So next thing I did was advertise. I made a tool box to take around all the rest homes I deal with and with that then 5 more orders all ranging $200 to $500.
Fantastic lots of orders, loads of money. So far these people have been waiting 12 weeks because I keep getting called out for other jobs and I can’t cut box joints properly.
My advice is this (for what it’s worth).
Find something that works for you if you only have a small shop find a small project.
Find something that doesn’t take you 6 weeks to build because trying to charge to cover your wages will put you into a whole other league and really limit your customer base.
Get good at what you do (don’t do as I do, do as I try)
CHARGE appropriately undercharging will keep it a hobby.
Just go for it. It took me 35 years to pluck up the courage to set up my own business but it was the best move I ever made.
Good luck.
Now I have to go and watch England beat South Africa in the Rugby.
Glynn
Having been there in being out of work more than once, I would be inclined to get a part-time job to at least bolster the family finances. Going from high end tax to part time heavy duty handyman in a research establishment, I learned many new skills and more importantly met lots of people in circumstances in which they were not on the defensive. In other words, if I had been so inclined, I could have opened up business contacts without too much effort. I had to leave because of age rules and so became a part time school caretaker. Here I built a 20 by 12 extention, re-roofed a building and was constantly asked by parents if I did re-modeling etc!
None of that was fine furniture building, but my point is that if you set yourself down for a while in surroundings where you are useful to lots of people, then your qualities will be recognized and opportunities will come. I wish you the very best of luck.
As someone who has run a small business for more years than I would care to admit, here are some things to think about:
1) It is a business. Find a niche that you are good at and work that niche. Be prepared to keep looking for needs that you can fulfill with your capitol and space and equipment and time.
2) All businesses run on capitol. If you are going to sell x per month, you are going to need AT LEAST x dollars and you will never see that money again until you stop or close your business. You can build that up and start on a shoestring but your chances of success are much less statistically.
3) Do not plan on taking money out of the business for a year, especially if you are low on capitol.
4) You have to charge to make a profit and you have to collect!!
5) Try not to borrow money. Your chances for long term success to way up.
If you can swing it -- it is the very best way to make a living. It is hard but extremely rewarding!!!! Good luck to you.
Scott
In general I think our society has become too litigious but I’ll join the “sue ‘em” camp! Hiring a bunch of new people and firing all the old hands is called age discrimination and it is illegal in the United States. You said it happened to several and not just you, you may have the makings of a class-action law suit.
Don't sue them. That's one of the biggest problems in our society today. Life isn't fair. Don't dwell on it. Just move on and put your energy into your new venture.
Best of luck,
Paul
In an earlier post I suggested to Chuck that he speak to an employment lawyer. I didn't mean to suggest he sue, but rather that he should attempt to negotiate a reasonable severance package, based on his years of service, etc. Many companies are willing to go well beyond what an employee is legally entitled to (usually nothing). It doesn't hurt to make the attempt.
Edited 10/29/2007 4:34 pm ET by smslaw
Thanks for the words of support, everyone.
I'm not going to sue anyone. I hate lawyers and I don't have a case any how. All the new people they hired were also laid off with me and the others. It was just one more stupid decision that the company made. And they've been making stupid decisions on quite a regular basis.
The shop idea is going slowly. I've been doing alot of research on the web (and there is alot of stuff to read out there). Good Lord! What a pain in the butt! I sometimes think it would be easier to just "fly under the radar" and let the IRS and all the other Government agencies (read "lawyers") that seem to be so concerned about my income believe I'm nothing more than a stay-at-home husband and squirrel my money away.
But I keep at it. Some day I will have it figured out and maybe have something I can be proud of.
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
Chuck - There is a major difference between the folks that try to turn a hobby into a living and those that set out to make a living working wood as a professional. The entry level hobby turned "pro" field is so crowded it now even supports several consultants that will take whatever financial resources you have in exchange for advice on how to "follow your dream." You see, it's all about Romance. Little House on the Prairie meets Norm Abrams. Flannel shirts, the scent of shavings, rugged good looks - all of it is more marketable than anything else I can think of. Then reality intrudes and you realize there is no way you can make it fast enough to feed the shop cat, much less yourself. Add to that the thousands of other hobbyists that will make whatever you are making for half the money - or less - just so they can use their tools, and you are a dead man. However, if you look at the horizon with clear eyes and the tilt of a businessperson, then you may see the pitfalls more accurately and realize there is a way. The first thing you must absolutely loose is the Romance. Keep the passion, keep the flannel if you must, but loose the Romance. You ain't Norm - and you don't wanna be. You will realize you will starve competing with import crap unless you have taken years developing your product to where you are the expert. You will realize that niche exploitation is the only way to do this unless you want to invest 1.5 million and begin an industrial woodshop. Then, after some years of struggle and refinement and intense self-scrutiny, you may then be able to make enough to call it a living. Doing it out of your garage? Not likely - you will only attract people wanting the cheapest of the cheap. Realize that nearly all woodworkers that have ever made it to - oh, let's say, something like a story in a magazine like Fine Woodworking - are already double timing away from a 40 hour week in the shop. They are struggling to make it on the teaching track and or writing track instead of developing new products or building contract furniture. Much easier than the daily grind, develop a persona and a brand and go talk for a living. I beat my head on the wall for years until I realized it was the Romance that was killing me, not the work or the customers. Once I realized I needed to be a businessman, I wised up and changed my work and now build financial security not only for myself but for those that I work with everyday. I no longer have any flannel shirts. But I am happy and challenged and fulfilled. Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Don't know if I would just jump in to this camp with only one side of the argument. What was told to the longer term employees? How many were told about the need to change methods and how many replied to themselves "I've done it this way for years and it is the only way".
Hear both sides and then form your opinion.
Two things to consider.
1) You can be the best woodworker in the world and if you're lacking skills in the craft of
business you'll likely suffer.
2) You can be an average run of the mill woodworker with good business skills and chances are you'll do alright.
The sue them idea depends on the state. In Michigan you can be pitched out the door for almost any reason (we are called a right to work state) that the company feels like (assuming no union or contract) To prove the age idea you would have to have an old workforce and the new one would have to all be noticably younger. I think they could kill that if even one of the new guys was even close to one of the ones tossed out.
I see this happen fairly often of late. I worked for a company that hired one new guy, pitched all but him and one other guy (about 12 of us) then a month latter started hireing new peaple while we all sat around collecting unemployment. The State did not care.
Doug
File a hearing loss claim. If you have worked over 20 years your over 40 you will have some hearing loss. 15% loss can get you $15,000. But you must do it before you take another job.
Chuck
I am sorry to hear about your job, good luck at landing on your feet. From the sounds you are well on the way. I would urge you to take advantage of every opprotunity that arrises for displaced worker retraining or continueing education. Even if you are well educated some vocational courses may open up new horizons for you and in many cases you may qualify for grants that cover the class expenses.
As far as the woodworking goes if you have the skills go for it. Maybe look for some work doing finish work or something like that. In this area I know of several guys that don't make a lot at any one thing but when you combine all the stuff they do they make out pretty good. Some times they are pretty selective at what jobs they take on and which ones they pay taxes on as well.
That completely sucks, and everything everyone is saying rings true in my ears. Especially the one about checking out the market, in my area, high end building (the trim can be furniture quality) is booming and have not had to work too hard at being steady. When I was younger and single I moved where the work was good and lived meagerly. Hang out at your local lumber yard, The good one, not home depot and search out contractors who can use and pay for your skills. I have gotten very good work this way, and have built lasting relationships getting to know the salesmen at several yards up and down the Rocky mountains. Good finish carpenters are hard to find. Every body says they are one, and anyone can put up case and base. But to build custom built in stuff from scratch will shut most of them up. Stair cases are another great one that keep me busy and pay the bills. Built in bookcases are like ####magic word in my area and blows me away what people will pay for them. Try to hook up with a custom home builder, or a good finish contractor.
I do about 70 percent of my work for contractors and am building clients steadily, but it is tough to get right to the clients,(where the money is) And like someone said, the woodworking is the easy part it is staying on top of everything else, which personally I don't think is that difficult, especially getting paid with your own name on the check. Talk to the guys/gals at the yard, you can get a good feel for the market from them, and the names of the topnotch good guy builders in your area(if there are any left) Go for it brother
John in potomac
ChuckN,
I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune, but as others have said, this could be the start of the most rewarding time of your life.
There is always a need for good craftsmen. If you have the skills and a shop you have a good start. The difficult part will be setting up and running a proficient business.
Many areas in the US (you need to fill in your profile) have groups of retired businessmen/women who volunteer to help people start businesses. They share a wealth of knowledge and can be a valuable network to get you started. They have nothing to gain but the satisfaction of seeing you succeed.
Check with your Chamber of Commerce, state employment office, small business associations, etc. to see what's available in your area. Keep looking till you find some help.
You might start by checking your state's websites and looking for small business associations.
Google is a wonderful thing!
Good luck!
oldfred
Hey Chuck,
To add to the misery, I am a person who is retired and trying to sell hand crafted items at 'craft' shows. While the promoters all sing the same song, i.e. "Only items hand crafted by you will be accepted by our jurors" the final outcome is always different. My wife and I make all the things we sell from exotic woods. The problem is that there is such a preponderance of material being imported mostly from China that we are finding it more and more difficult to even break even. It's simple. The Chinese minimum wage is something like .24 and hour. All of American industry has been forced to deal with this by having to have their things made in China. If there is any market left for hand crafted things, including furniture, it is only with the really well to do and their numbers are dwindling as well. Good luck in your pursuit but do it only if you have a passion for making furniture. You may be making it only for yourself. -Curt
Been there and experienced that;; 40 + YEARS And I lost almost everythig.. I ended up with 100 grand and should have been closer to a Million... I wish all our USA judges lived on my income these days!
Hi ChuckN,I was given a piece of advice by a professor once that I thought was some of the best advice that I've ever been given--Good avocations tend not to be good vocations.Odds are that at this point, woodworking is an avocation-- not a vocation. And if you're 49 (not that much older than me) the prospect of starting alone and building up a business is daunting in itself from a physical perspective. I've never read a single piece on starting a pro woodworking business that didn't involve 16 hr. days in the shop and no weekends. You're not going to pull in enough money right away to hire a younger helper, either, which is going to profoundly limit what you can physically make. Ask yourself-- do you want to make bookmarks over and over again? Or small boxes? What can you make somewhat repetitively that people will actually want? Perhaps you live in an area that will support some upper-level trade-- but if you don't, you'll be wrestling cabinets, because that's what pays the bills. And that's tough when you're 49. And don't think I'm giving this advice because I'm in bad shape-- I'm a fitness junkie. I ride my bike about 2000 miles/year. It's just hard to stand in the shop like I used to be able.I just attended a Windsor Institute Windsor chair building class, and I'd highly recommend just taking one and talking to Mike Dunbar and his wife Sue. They'll tell you the unvarnished truth on how it really goes-- the good, the bad, and the great.Lots of people have a fantasy of making their money woodworking-- but from what I can see, few can pull it off. In the past, I've tried to make even a little money off my woodworking, but it's hard when you've finished a Federal Period candlestand that would really sell for about $1200 and someone won't even pay $100 for it. I'm assuming you're in America, and it's important to realize that the average interval before people redecorate in this country is 4 years. They don't have a desire for lifetime pieces because they have no intention of keeping anything for a lifetime. Good luck, of course, with whatever your decision is.Best,Chuck
See how this fits in your hat...
I did that and been there..
I worked for them 40 years + a few.. and was laied off.. downsized?) AFTER training three new kids to take my job.. I did my best to train them.. I did NOT stear them wrong...
I was called back after a year.. I told them to stick it in their (rimes with back)...
Back? How about donkey or the like!
Edited 11/4/2007 10:30 am by WillGeorge
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