In light of David Savage’s steel comments in another thread:
Noticed the Ashley Iles Round Back O1s in the latest Tools for Woodworking cat. Not to highlight them specifically but they triggered the thought.
I would throw it out for discussion, in that they (the AI RBs) are ground to 25 degrees with a suggested option of a micro bevel; would all the A1 tools, i.e. LN blades, chisels, Spruce et-al be quite so popular if they were ground to a lesser angle (like 25) and thus perhaps lead to even greater excess frangibility and edge chipping? All other things being equal. i.e. Rockwell etc.
Especially when used for a more delicate cut (without the micro bevel) as in paring where the blunt force and resistance of the higher degree would perhaps give way to the sharper and easier cut of an O1 and 25 degree tool?
I speak more to the chisels rather than planes. And more to fine chisel work as opposed to heavy firmer / mortise chisel work. Fine being that where the visible edge or the flat is of greater concern than the disgorging of meat.
My only significant and anecdotal experience in the area is in the plane area with a Hock O-1 vs a LN A-2 on a LN 4.5 smoother.
At the same plane settings /same frog / same angle, the LN A1 cuts very well for me, but the O1 is sweeter, seems sharper and the shaving less –for lack of a better description , “granular”. But this is a plane experience and thus a partially different beastie from the chisel question. (I have the two different blades for other reasons 🙂
As I consider the whole sharpening process a necessary evil but nonetheless odious, the quicker, the better. Sharpening is not woodworking. It’s not creative, it’s maintenance. The A-2s, longer to re-hone, O1s – lick and a promise on a “green” strop and back at it.
As I said -anecdotal and subjective.
Just throwing it out for thoughts.
Boiler
Replies
Well let me say this about that:
I have one of these:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05%2E306%2E38&dept_id=12795
It is made of "blue steel" at the cutting edge. This is basically the A2 that has been treated with the greatest of attention to maintain and enhance this steel for it's best properties.
When I began to cut and pare the huge dovetails on my purple heart work bench it was ground to a fairly shallow angle for paring softer woods. I got some edge damage/break down and re ground to a steeper angle to compensate.
From there the edge held up so well that I was ecstatic ! A very pleasing experience in deed ! Compared to other lesser chisels I was also using on the same stuff.
The initial edge degradation that i experienced, viewed under magnification, was not chipping but more of a denting or blunting at the edge. There was no material broken off; it was folded up here and there in very small spots along the edge.
So to answer your question would they still be popular with shallow edge I would say no. But when combined with an appropriate sharpening angle for the tougher woods I think the tougher steel is worth having if it has been properly crafted.
As stated over and over in other threads here; sharpening this stuff is no big deal as long as diamond and water stones are close to hand.
For the work I do, which involves allot of hand paring especially in these tougher woods but almost no carving, I have spent allot of time with strops (leather and maple with diamond paste) but have almost completely abandoned my strops and just use stones now.
Once I get a sweet angle I want to maintain it. Stropping for me is an opportunity to change this sweet angle to a progressively wider and wider sharpening angle and I don't care to go there. But then I find pleasure in sharpening at my stones, sick pup that I am. Of coarse I have to agree there is no money to be found from sharpening my tools.
If I were a carver I am sure I would be singing a different tune. Softer, finer steel and stropping the way to go.
Edited 11/11/2008 1:11 am by roc
Nothing better than a good "steel" discussion on Veteran's Day (Thanks and God Bless to all Veterans). Seems we've had one every year for the past couple of decades.
My take on steel issues is that it is a non-issue. First, if you're paring, you do not have huge chunks of material to take off and you are only making finese cuts, hence you can get away with 20 degree bevels. You make a few light cuts, hone a bit and you're there. Second if you're wailing away at a bench chisel with a 12 pound sledge, then you probably will want a 35 degree bevel, or maybe a 25 degree main bevel with 35 degree secondary.
I think we make too much of the fine points of material, as in the O1 vs. A2 argument. If either is properly heat treated, then each presents unique characteristics in its use. Me, I kind of like Clifton plane blades. I think they may be O1 material, but I don't really know. I do know I like them. I really don't know what angle I sharpen them at. They may have started brand new at 25 or 30 degrees, but since I free-hand hone, who knows exactly where I am now!
T.Z.
Agreed, the intrinsic material properties are one thing, process is an at least equally important factor
In general forged blades (your Clifton, our own Chinese, etc.) tend to perform better than blades made of sheet metal (LN, LV, Hock, etc.), material properties tend to be over-rated.
Chris---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Tony,
Ya know, no woodshop should be without an electron microscope to really get a good look at each chisel edge before and after honing. Otherwise you are just guessing. To really understand steel, you have to be able to peer into its molecular structure. When nano-technology comes into full bloom, we will be able to get in there and move atoms around to really perfect an edge. At first, it will take days and hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a really good edge, BUT the result will be worth it. BUY THE BEST! How often have we heard that? The fact that the cost of a really good edge will be about the same cost as a house is irrelevant. THIS IS WHAT WOODWORKING IS ALL ABOUT. I used to think it was about making furniture, but I have matured. WHEN WE DIE, THE GUY WITH THE BEST TOOLS WINS!!!!!
Ain't life grand?
Every woodworker should have a PhD in metalurgical engineering. Hoadley's book on Wood is really dated. It needs to be replaced with a book on tool steel. Have fun. I just did.
MelPS - I have been getting David Savage's newsletter. Quite interesting. I have never gone through an apprenticeship. The newsletter gives a glimpse into this world, as seen by David, who seems to be a benevolent dictator. I really like his focus on keeping your eye on the ball (doing woodwork), and on seeing the tools and the processes such as sharpening in the context of actually producing fine furniture. I really like that. All too often we forget to keep our eye on the ball, and get distracted. I think I'll cancel my order for an electron microscope. I'd rather have a larger bandsaw. Hey Tony, stop over at the long thread. I just posted a photo of my grandkid in a response to Samson.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Cute kid Mel! Maybe one day I'll have a few grandkids!
Been reading the long thread regularly, just don't have anything to say at the moment. In this one, I had to speak up as I think this whole issue of working to tenths of a degree humorous. We just need to remember why our forebears created paring chisels, mortise chisels, firmers etc. I don't whallop my Sorby long paring chisels with a 3 pound sledge (at least not that often!).
I employed a quality manager a few years ago that had a Phd in metallurgy. Smart guy, but he couldn't remember that we had to ship product in order to stay in business. I asked him a question once and didn't get an answer. About a week or so later he presented me the answer, but I had forgotten what I had asked him. Said he worked all week getting me the answer.
We got to come up with some sizzle to get the long thread to 10,000. Maybe we ought to have a virtual raffle or something. Sort of like what Goober did on the Andy Griffth Show the other night!
T.Z.
A-2, Brute?
Very clever, Boiler.
Rob
" I would throw it out for discussion, in that they (the AI RBs) are ground to 25 degrees with a suggested option of a micro bevel; would all the A1 tools, i.e. LN blades, chisels, Spruce et-al be quite so popular if they were ground to a lesser angle (like 25) and thus perhaps lead to even greater excess frangibility and edge chipping? All other things being equal. i.e. Rockwell etc."
My opinion on this subject is based on honing and extensively using blades from L-N, L-V, Hock, Norris, Marples, Mathieson, Butcher, and in one instance, P. Law. THe last 5 are antiques, of course. In the case of L-N, L-V and Hock, the blades are about evenly distributed between A-2 and O-1.
By a great margin, the Hock blades perform better than any of the other ones in both edge retention and the ability to get a truly sharp edge, and it doesn't seem to matter whether they're A-2 or O-1. In the case of the L-N and L-V blades, I've noticed a fair amount of inconsistency - one A-2 blade will dub over at the slightest excuse from planing poplar and white pine, one O-1 will chip horribly if I plane any cabinet (domestic) hardwood, and several O-1 and A-2 blades will perform reasonably well, though not nearly as well as the Hock.
My guess is that this may have to do with variations in the crystal structure of the steel, which has a lot more to do with how the steel was cast/rolled out/forged than it does with the alloy. If the crystal structure is very fine (small crystals), the blade will take a harder temper and still not chip and shatter. Ron seems to have this figured out - I've 10 of his blades and all perform very, very, well.
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