So… I am having a bathroom gutted and renovated. I went to a fixture place to buy plumbing fixtures and came across a small bathroom cabinet. Raised panels, a place for the sink, a door below, and a row of small drawers to one side. Simple, paint grade, probably 30″ high by 24″ deep by 36″ wide. Oh, and it was $4,200. So I said to the contractor, I think I can have it made for that. So he says he’ll get some prices. His quote: $4,500.
Now I am buying good plumbing fixtures and marble tile, so I’m not expecting good quality for nothing… but >$4,000 for a single, simple, painted bathroom cabinet holding a single sink?
I realize that this is not a job a custom guy is going to drool over… nor does it push anyone’s creative limits. It just seems to me that somewhere between HomeDepot/Ikea and the MOMA there must be a poplar based solution for what must be a common item.
Am I missing something here? This seems like a $200/hr quote. Any solutions for semicustom or other sources for such cabinets? I’ll put away the curly maple and walnut and make it myself before I put up $4k for a bathroom cabinet…
Glaucon
If you don’t think too good, then don’t think too much…
Replies
I know of several semi-custom cabinet companies that would probably be a better alternative, (Kraftmaid, Dura Supreme, Aristokraft, Bertch and a few others. The problem is time. Most of these companies need 4 to 6 weeks to deliver.
U,Do any of these guys deal direct, or is there at least a way to get prices?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Sorry, I used to work for one of the large custom home builders as a purchasing agent beside kitchen and bath design. Buying direct is only possible if you can guarantee the manufacturer exclusive use and advertise nationally. But what I am saying is go to a small mom and pop kitchen and bath studio, tell them what you are looking for and you will be surprised at what you will get. Remember, they are competing against the big box stores for your dollars as well. The other thing that might surprise you is the level of service you may get. Avoid asking your contractor for help. All they do is tack on a fee to the cabinet price just cause you asked for help. Like a finders fee.
Did some research based upon your suggestions. I've looked at cabinets by Woodcraft, Kraftmaid and Medallion. The Medallion and Kraftmaid seem similar, and a notch above the Woodcraft in construction (at least to my eye). Any thoughts? Do you have any views about Medallion (they are based in Minnesota). They are solid wood and hardwood veneer plywood, face frame construction. The painted cabinets are maple based. Any other cabinets I should look into?Thanks,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
CrapMaid !!! Behind the"fair" hardwood doors and drawer fronts you will find srapmaid ! My bank was pushing for house completion(built it myself) so cabinets ended up being KraftMaid, located 15Mi. down the road. The carcasses are particle board, wimpy fiber board backs and hot glued together. Drawers are the pits also. But that was 15 years ago. So look closely beyond the pretty facade.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce,What I've found is that most of these companies offer several different quality lines. The base line is usually particle board. The better lines are hardwood veneer plywood and solids for the rails and stiles. The joinery tends to differ as you go up in quality. I've seen the Home Depot $300 particleboard vanity, a $650 version from Woodcraft that had plywood backs but fairly crude joinery, and a $950 Medallion, that seemed a step up from that. I think a lot depends on the price point. My own take is that there is a much bigger difference between the $300 and the $950, then from the latter and the $4500 vanity that was first proposed to me.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You could also look at Dura Supreme, they are based out of Minnesota also. Another company is Seville Cabinetry out of De Pere, Wisconsin. Great company, all hand selected lumber for the face frames, doors and drawer heads. Drawer box has two options, dovetail oak or dovetail maple nothing else. If you have trouble locating this one, let me know. This is one those treasured companies that aren't too big and not too small, but man oh man do they make a great cabinet. They are a division of Valley Cabinet that has been around for over 50 years.
Edited 7/13/2008 8:37 pm ET by unionlabel
Thanks UL.Sounds like the kind of company that deserves a look,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You're right. There's definitely a gap in there. The custom made factory cabinet is good but outrageous in price. The Home Dumpo is cheap but it's a piece 'o crap. These are the situations where you're tempted to stop what you're working on and do it yourself cuzz it seems there ought to be a better answer.
Denny
Find a nice independently owned cabinet company, try using the local business bureau, they will usually be able to help you. Curly maple and walnut, sounds like you were getting your vanity base from CWP in Maine?
When someone asks me to estimate the cost of cabinets (and a vanity is n cabinet), I tell them that for mid-quality cabinets, they should expect to pay $100 per linear foot, plus $100 per drawer, plus $100 per door. This doesn't include countertop materials or fixtures.
That estimate has never been dead-on to my final quoted price. But its also never been very far off.
A three foot vanity, with one door and three drawers, estimates at $700 using my method. Depending on the countertop and fixtures, the total ESTIMATE would likely be less than $1000.
But I should also note that there have been cases in which the customer wanted the vanity to be a converted piece of furniture. Using the customer's furniture, and just doing the conversion, I have charged significantly more than I would have for cabinets.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Glaucon,
Sounds quite high to me. I build cabinets and couldn't imagine charging that for a paint grade 36" sink base, even in a well-to-do area. Maybe $1000-$2000, depending on paint options and whether or not it has inset doors, dovetail drawers, and undermount slides.
Good luck, and keep looking for a reasonable custom cabinet maker.
Lee
>>I couldn’t believe my eyes. They had a hand painted porcelain toilet.
Its been a couple of years ago, but I did a bathroom for a customer. It included a modified sideboard for the vanity, custom ceramic shower, and was done as a complete gut-out job. When the customer and I were talking about costs, they wanted me to quote the cost without the sink, faucet, or toilet included.
As the job progressed, they told me of their choice for fixtures. As you mentioned, hand-painted sink, toilet, and even the faucet handles. Since they were buying and supplying those items, I didn't need to know how much they had cost.
I later found out the, since their son was an employee at the plumbing supply house, they were able to get it at a discount. So, for the sink, faucet, and toilet, they paid just under $5000.
Not including shipping. Or installation. Or plumbing rough-in. Not even a tube of caulk.
And like you said, I found it quite difficult to use a toilet that had scenes from "Sleeping Beauty".
Of course, make no mistake, that bath, with those fixtures, was amazingly beautiful.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
>>Of course, make no mistake, that bath, with those fixtures, was amazingly beautiful.Amazingly, even at those "to the trade prices" they were still not unique or even truly custom. Just a catalog plus markup item. Must be the cost of gas.
For me they just cause it. BB
Tell the contractor you will do it yourself and put the mark-up into your car instead of his Porche.
Unpainted vanity, >$4000. Smoothed on the inside with a luthier's thumb planes by gifted savants from a previously unknown and still surviving Shaker settlement?
Must be due to the row of small drawers.
How much will he charge for the painting and would that be with or without custom ground pigments?
Give me a break.
Regards
Boiler
Morning Doc ,
Please take some time to check a few sources , IMHO your are about to get intercourse without any loving .
even on the extreme high end $2500 much less for paint grade
enclosed is a photo of a paint grade vanity I built last year un finished it sold for about $900.
they saw your doctors degree on the wall
I build one just like yours only a bit smaller, Only three drawers on one side and one door plus a fake drawer front above the door. The sides and back were birch plywood and the face frame and drawers & door were all soft maple. Painted white with no top or fixtures. I sold it for $600.00 The client installed it and had a solid counter top and fixtures put in by Home Depot. He could have bought one just like it from Home Depot for $300.00 but did not like the quality they offered.
Dear Dusty,
Now I looked at the vanity that you made and posted. I'm not sure if you included installation or not, but I couldn't build it for what you sold it for. No way. It is with in my skill range, but as a commercial operation, I couldn't touch it at that price. Boy I hope that you are not in CT!Best,John
Dear Dusty,
I don't know how to post the pictures, but this is a prototype website that a friend of mine is working on for me. It has a bunch of typos and what not, but there is a picture section and it displays some of my work. Excuse the photo of the plaster moulding as I did not do that. We need to get that picture pulled.Best,Johnhttp://colonialhousewrights.com/home.html
Very nice looking work and the website is very professional .
Thanks for posting
You live in Connecticut is that right , move over I'm moving back there to take advantage of the market place , wow !
How do I get there from here ?
regards dusty
North on I-5 - right on I-90... don't miss Wall Drugs and the Corn Palace.
Hasta luego amigo.
amigo '
I'm on my way .
d
Great vanity, Dusty. The base molding really seams to be an 'extra' in the good sense. Not to put my work on par with yours in the slightest, but makes me feel more confident in the (soundly rejected) price I quoted for one of similar size quartersawn white oak flush doors and drawers finished. installed, knobbed and pulled vanity for 1100 here in far northern CA (Humboldt Co.). I understand that he (the customer) was just comparing me to the local manufactured retailer, but the thing is that I made all his kitchen cabs and he wouldn't even spring for a vanity at the same price per lf! In the future I'll try breaking down the pricing much more. He doesn't say anything less than complimentary about the kitchen, but you know how it gets toward the end of a big project . . . Anyway, I guess I just felt like talking a little. Thanks again for your help in the past, and how's business and life way up there in Oregon? Brian
Hi Brian ,
I don't think your price was out of line at all , our brothers back East are getting $600 - $900 per foot we ought to be able to get $200 - $300 for quality case goods .
I still contend the material costs are close to exactly the same in most parts of the U.S. , at least from a wholesale supplier .
The vanity was one of two made for clients that had a magazine picture for me to use . I made a template and ran a small molding that sat up on the base board to transition .
I'm not sure I knew you are in Humboldt , I have close people in Eureka , they are in the cabinet business as well in fact I apprenticed with the family .
Have you heard of Forbes Cabinets and Furniture ?
Things were slow this winter but the valley is waking up now that it is Spring time . We have work and are looking at more .
regards dusty
Thanks for your reply. Intuitively, I agree with you about matrial costs. It seems that selling price is about market; what 'sounds expensive' or 'sounds cheap' compared to who knows what. Not sure I've heard of Forbes. I'm in Mckinleville for the last few, and know of a few shops here and in Arcata, but there may be a whole lot more going on in Eureka than I know about, or want to . . . pretty sure there's no 4k vanities, though.I don't think you said what part of OR you're in? I do get up there once or twice a year.Brian
Brian , we are almost neighbors we are about 85 miles East of Crescent city.
The prices in Eureka can be surprisingly high , the scale and scope of the projects can run on the extreme high end .
The shop I speak of does $100,000 kitchens and credit unions as well as Blood wood wine cellars .
They have about the best reputation in Eureka for high quality .
e mail me if you want , I'm sure we could meet up at some point
dusty
Dear G,
I'll build it for that price! Even when I build a "built in" library type cabinet, i estimate $850.00 per linear foot. So even at that rate, 3K should be more than adequate. Sight unseen, paint grade, I would say $2000.00 - $2500.00 installed here in CT. If you are in the neighborhood, email me.
Best,
John
Thanks to all for their input, I needed the sanity check. I do have some time, as the demo hasn't begun yet. I'll start calling some local shops- and friends that I went to WWing school with. For $4,000, I'd quit my day job... My take is depending on the features (inset and # of drawers, etc), I should be able to get this done for between $1,000 and $1,500.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Send me the dimensions and I'll build it for $3,800 - which will include shipping from CA to CT. - lol
<"- which will include shipping from CA to CT. ">...which may be of limited use to me in PA... couldn't cost more than 4 o5 hundred to get it to me from CT, I'd bet...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You drive a hard bargain, but I'll ship to PA for the same price. - lol
John ,
Just out of curiosity what would you estimate your actual material costs to build this in a paint grade unfinished product ?
My guess your material including undermount slides Euro hinge , tip out tray and all materials
Would run less than $325 and a good boxbuilder could have it done in a day or two ready for paint or install .
you said you would charge between $2000 and $2500 right ?
Or about $850 per lineal foot give or take
you must do wonderful work , would love to see some
regards dusty
Dear Dusty,
I don't know if my work is wonderful, if fact, I'm pretty sure that it is not. I would grade myself as a journeyman cabinet maker. I'm pretty good at paint grade and things that are straight, curves are definitely a challenge. The bulk of my work pales in comparison to what gets posted here. My pricing is based upon how I build and that is I build very robust construction. An adult can climb upon my cabinets when I am done, probably a few. My real strong-suit is customer relations. I will accommodate, almost to a fault. When I work, I try to be meticulous when it comes to clean up and I am always very respectful of peoples homes and their privacy. I am reliable and I try to keep my customers informed of progress and any delays. If anyone has an adjustment needed (very rare) I come running. You would think that most folks would simply do all that, but around here at least, those traits are few and far between. As for our cabinet. I haven't priced one in a while, but let's see: Quick & Dirty: Ring's End pricing:2 sheets 3/4" Birch @ $107.35 each = $214.70
1 sheet 1/2" Birch = $77.50Call it three drawers with faces.........= $375.00
Slides (Blum undermount)................= $150.00One door:.........................................= $100.00Face frame and base materials..........= $200.00Total................................................= $1117.21 without the sales tax.Now that doesn't include any raised panels on the sides or a pre finished interior, but that is a quick materials list. It is probably a bit high, but without actually making any calls, I would say that it is close.Best,John
Hey John ,
You said you run a commercial operation or did I mis understand ?
If you are in business or not by the prices you posted for materials you need to find a wholesale supplier , you are close to double on some items listed , last time I checked with my hardware supplier the most expensive Blumotion type slide was closer to $25 per . One sheet of 3/4" plywood will be enough for a 3' box the $200 for the base materials and face frame cost is not accurate imo unless you are using Teak and Rosewood to paint .
Do you sell the materials and then sell your labor at $200 per hour or how could that be ? I know the market prices vary but the vanity you looked at in my earlier post cost me maybe $200 without paint .
I could build 10 of them in a week at the rate you guys charge back East I could gross $100,000 per month by myself .
dusty , who is on the wrong side of the country
Dear Dust,
Thanks for your feedback on the website. Yes, commercial op. I never said that I was successful! The wholesalers around here are few and far between. Like I said, I was going from what's left of my memory and the plywood is retail from a local lumberyard. The materials are "stain grade" ply as I have found the paint grade to be so wavy as to be useless. As to the face frame, I know that I was excessive there, but not overly so for 7/8 poplar. At least around here. That said, I am sure that you are a better cabinet maker than I am and a lot more efficient. I am self taught and am probably terribly inefficient when compared to a dedicated cabinet shop. The vanity that you have posted would take me a week or so to construct. Best,John
Dear Dust,
My Hourly rate : $65.00. Hey, if you can knock those out that quickly, I'll have you build em and we'll ship them back here! Where are you? Sounds left coast. In FG's neck of the woods perhaps?Best,John
Yup , I'm in Oregon ,
But the freight haulers do come this way and I'd be happy to fill one up for you .
It is amazing how price varies even in the same region but to my knowledge the cost of materials is fairly constant at the wholesale level .
I say it in all sincerity , look for a cabinet shop supplier you will get a better grade of materials at a lower cost .That goes for hardware as well .
I just paid about $1.95 a bf for 4/4 Poplar surfaced to 13/16" and straight line ripped or S3S .
I typically use Maple plywood for boxes and any finished ends on paint grade the Maple is smoother with less broom grain . The ripples you speak of have more to do with the core not the skins .
If there are no wholesale suppliers in your area that may mean there are not many shops either , I would think to allow the prices you speak of ($850 per foot) there must be enough people to create the demand .
May the wood lords be good to you
dusty
Guys:It has been several years since I had anyone else do cabinets for the house here. However, the last time I did, it was for a built in desk that fitted into an odd, 5' wide niche in a bedroom. The desk is mounted onto the wall with panels below going to the floor and a a double panel on the back rising 28 inches to the bottom of set of shelves with four glass doors with eyebrows. The desk surface is 5' wide by 26 inches deep. It has two 4' deep drawers with raised panel fronts. All the door and drawer fronts are solid red oak, as are the frame members and the bullnose on the front of the desk The rest is made of lumber core red oak plywood. This was built and installed in about 1998, by a local cabinet shop. It came naked; I applied the finish. It cost about $750 installed, plus sales tax.Joe
Must be that East thing. I also took note of the materials price!!!
Without laying a pencil on paper, I can say that I would be happy to make that cabinet for $2.500.
Here are a couple of pictures of a bathroom vanity I made last August and sold for $350.00. Client wanted a country look, and the size was to be 38"wide by 24" deep x 30" high. Sides, back and bottom shelf are all 3/4" birch plywood and the face frame, doors , drawer boxes (all dove tailed) and drawer fronts are soft maple. The client painted the cabinet, installed it and assembled a special order top from Home Depot. Similar cabinet at HD was $179.00 with out top and but painted.
bird,
Nice vanity. You have definitely underestimated your worth selling it for $350, though. For starters, that vanity is 38" wide. Not possible to get that size anywhere but a custom shop. Commercially made cabs (even the nicer all-wood cabs) come in 3" increments starting at 9" and going up to about 48". It's usually not possible to spec custom sizes and if you can, the price usually doubles or triples.
If it was for a friend and you were trying to help them out, good deal. If it was a regular paying customer, you definitely short-changed yourself by at least a couple of hundred bucks. I find people who are pricing my work against Home Depot or Lowes usually don't understand how much better my product is than theirs. I try and run, as fast as I can, when I hear the words "Well, we got this price from Home Depot" as it is usually followed by something along the lines of "and we were wondering what you would charge"
Cheers,
Lee
You hit it right on the head when clients come with HD prices. Yes this was for an aquaintance of my wife and I was trying to give them a good deal and still make some on the job. And yes you were right they could not get one this size at the local big box stores. Actually I had less than $90.00 in material cost. In addition, they purchased the hardware and I installed it.
Yes this was for an aquaintance of my wife and I was trying to give them a good deal and still make some on the job.
Good deal. You'll get no argument out of me for that. I just see a lot of people pricing their work really low in an effort to "get the job". Sometimes that only serves to perpetuate the myth that "it shouldn't cost too much... because they're only this much at HD"
Have a good weekend (what's left of it)
Lee
Lee ,
What I tell people who mention modular or big box product is : if you can't see any difference then you should not pay more then you have to .Don't waste any time if price is the only concern .
If you have the opportunity to educate the potential client then you give them information to make an intelligent decision , we hope.
When I have an opportunity to look at a layout from the big box and the folks just want to see what the difference will be the first thing I do is improve the layout ( usually a kitchen ) in a way the modulars can not duplicate with size or depth or whatever other restrictions they have are firm .
The beauty of custom built is we can do whatever they want , for a price .
The analogy I use is this : it's like buying Apples , the 5 lb bag may be 49 cents a pound but it is a package deal you can't select them and there are usually a few you would not have selected but when you buy them out of the bin you can select only the ones that you want for 79 cents a pound perhaps .
dusty
Hey Dust,
Don't misunderstand me, I don't turn people away when they tell me they have been price shopping at Home Depot. I do my best at trying to educate them. Most of the time though, I have limited sucess.
One thing about people I have come to understand:
They will gladly pay $40,000 and up for an SUV. They will go down, kicking and screaming, if you try to get $2,500 more than HD for a much better kitchen cabinet that will last way past the time that they will want to remodel their kitchen (15-20 yrs?)
They will argue with you to death about the fact that the $10,000 price they got from HD was for a particleboard cabinet with melamine coated interior with a fake wood design on it. HD's prices on an all wood cabinet are in line with what a custom guy in an average part of the country would charge as a starting point. As you said, dress it up a little and give them something HD can't or won't, and you have made a good sale.
OK - end of rant.
Cheers,
Lee
Good Morning to you Lee,
After a bit more thinking on this very subject , the majority of my clients/customers are not DIYers or typically not the same mindset as the type who automatically go to a big box .It's like the old saying there are those who can and those who can't .
The potential clients I am currently working with is a realtor and she said we don't need Platinum cabinets where we spend like $10,000 more , just above average and better than modulars is all we want , because you can never recover the extra you put in to the Platinum cabinets .
I very calmly referred to a group of homes built locally and all with beautiful A&C / craftsman style cabinetry throughout the homes done by a friend of mine and how the builder and all the home buyers said it was the wood work and cabinetry that sold them on the house.
So , she quieted down and he was assured the investment was worthy .
The majority of my clients have been referred and most have seen my work , the credibility factor and confidence that I will do as promised is already established and saves much time . Converting a Wal Mart mentality shopper to pay our prices is a waste of my time .
I don't get that many cold calls by folks that have not been given my name but generally I try and ask a few qualifying questions like , what are you wanting to end up with ? is it O.K. if the face is wood but particle board interiors ?I don't ask about their budget that usually will lead to a low number .
When I realize the folks need to shop in a different league I do my best to refer them to a shop who can meet the needs .
dusty
Dusty,I think that you are spot on. There are many reasons why someone might choose HD instead of a semicustom or custom approach. Some have a fixed low budget in mind and can't afford more. Others don't really think that the quality difference is apparent (at least to them) and can't see paying more. There is also a species that has a five year mind set. They figure that they will either move or redecorate in a "new" trend in 5 years, so why pay more for something that truly lasts? I've known people who wanted white Euro-style cabinets, so they refaced with melamine white- and threw out the original solid cherry doors and drawer fronts. I suppose if they could have squeezed replacement particle-board boxes into the budget for the hardwood and hardwood-veneer plywood carcases, they would have. A while back, I was surfing through channels and came upon a home improvement show. A house was being renovated, and the architect called for a solid mahogany front door. It arrived, with matched panels and was beautiful. Then the newly hired designer showed up and wanted it painted off-white. The finish carpenter practically had a seizure and insisted that the designer call the homeowner before the painter was allowed near the door. The homeowner came in and somewhat reluctantly agreed that the wood finish was "nice" and probably shouldn't be painted "right now". The designer looked baffled. And so it goes.When I moved into my present house, the entire floor space (3 floors) was covered with wall-to-wall carpeting. The second floor was covered with a particular indigestible shade of shag carpeting. When I pulled up the first floor carpeting, I found red oak flooring. When I pulled up the second floor, preserved under the bile-colored rug was heart of pine flooring, first growth and in mint condition. Why someone wanted to spend money to cover it up is a mystery to me to this day.Go figure...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hiya Doc ,
I know a few Knotheads have made the offer to build you a vanity and ship it to you for a lower than $4500 price tag .
If you are serious I would be happy to accommodate your needs at a realistic price including common carrier shipping .
E mail me via Knots if you want to talk serious It would be my pleasure .
You would have the piece about 14 days after I start.
dusty
Dusty and all,I appreciate your comments and the offers. I think that I will go to a local cabinet maker first- I know of a few, as well as some young guys starting up who were my instructors at WWing school. I think that this has the best chance of working with someone to get good quality, and to support the craft. If I come up short locally, I'll be in touch,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
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