Six months ago I produced 1000 3/4×5″ round maple disks. The task was tedious. I used a circle gig and band saw, then a jig on my stationary sander to smooth the edge and finally a router to round the edge. The sander was the worst part. I burned the wood often and got blisters on my thumb and finger from turning the wood in the jig. Now I have a contract to produce another batch. Help! Any Suggestions for doing this differently would be appreciated.
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Replies
How about a router? Use an undersize round disc as your pattern along with a spiral downcut bit and a guide. That way, if the router slips, all you can do is cut it slightly oversized. This will give you a 99.9 percent finished edge. A roundover bit and a light sanding should be all you need. Don't forget the ear protection with all that router work.
SawdustSteve
Sawdust, The router seems lika a good place to star. Do you think my 2hp router can handle 2-3 hours constant on? Scotso
You need to bid a new router into the price of the job. An overarm arrangement would be better.
Your router probably could take the 2 hours on cycle. I seriously doubt if your arms / hands can take this abbuse. You will probably have to stop after an hour to replace the dull router bit anyway. On a job of this size I would automatically add in the cost of several router bits. They are cheep enough and expendable. As they get dull they will make your work harder, so why not replace them as they dull out?
SawdustSteve
Why not use a Router! (1000 3/4x5" round maple disks) make a jig first
then route away! make the jig though you need Inserts ...
lee valley tools has them.
http://www.leevalley.com/home/main.asp
you will need a 1/4 dia bit. and this
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=47249&category=1,43000&ccurrency=1&SID=
hope this helps you!
If nothing sticks to Teflon,how does Teflon Stick to metal. Huh
Probably not much help but you might check pn having them laser cutor CNC so all you do is sand them. Also waterjet can cut stacks of them at a time. Slower than laser but no burn marks. Certainly worth knowing about in my opinion.
What type of center hole, if any, is allowable?
John W.
As Rick stated, a CNC router would make easy work of this; maybe you could sub it out to a shop that has one and charge a nominal profit.
Hay, Thanks for the interest.
Max hole size 3/8ths by 1/4 deep
Scotso
No through hole allowed? If you could put it on a through shaft then you can automate the process fairly easily.
I think the idea of farming this out to a CNC shop is a good idea. Even if you could make them in just one minute each you have 17 hours of mind numbing work. Go up to two minutes each and you'll be at it for most of a work week.
Add the cost of wear and tear on a router and bit, sandpaper, time spent prepping the wood and there probably isn't any money to be made running these off by hand.
You also have to consider the fairly good possibility of at least some nerve and joint damage from the hours of repetitive motion and vibration if you decide to go with a hand held router.
Good luck, John W.
Edited 2/17/2004 3:35:59 PM ET by JohnW
Buy the right machinery.
If I had to make 1000 I would turn them.
An overarm router with a 1/4" bit would work. Turn the piece while lowering the bit.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
I am making play surfaces for pinball machines right now for a guy doing some restoration work. I made a jig that allows me to router out all the holes in the plywood. I have lots of perfectly round scraps left over form cutting the holes in the surface. If you made a jig out of 1/4" MDF and then laid your work underneath and then get started. I have a hundred of these play fields to do so I know tedious.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Laser cut round blanks. No need for sanding.
Hand router the edge.
Done in no time.
Rob Kress
To recommend a manufacturing method,I first need to know the accuracy and finish requirements of the finished disc.Any of the router methods will require you to cut against the grain 50% of the time.
Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
Hi Pat. Accuracy needs to be +-1/16th. Finnished with no rough grain, smooth to the touch.
Scot
Personally, I'd look for someone with a point-to-point CNC router or laser cutter.
But, if you want to keep the money in your shop and can make a guide hole (blind hole), I'd set up a 1/4" pin in a piece of 15mm ply and with cleats fitted underneath to suit a disc sander table.
Put the blank (trimmed with bandsaw to within 1/8" of line) onto the guide pin (obviously hole is predrilled)Push the blank onto the sanding disc.Spin the disc to cut your circle.
This will be well within the required tolerance, but the edges will be a trifle rough a/c sanding disc.
If the edge quality is acceptable, then that's one way in which I'd do it.
The other would be to use a vacuum hold down to keep the circle in place once cut and then cut the circle out using a guide template and appropriate bit (either bottom or top bearing bit)
Cheers,
eddie
Did he ever say if he had a lathe?
If so, then using a bandsaw and a blind 1/4" pilot hole in one side, set up a jig to bandsaw out the blanks maybe 1/16" over size.
Use the blind hole to mount the blank on a lathe with a 1/4" pin in a 3" diameter block mounted in a chuck on the head stock. Make a small 1" diameter block with a center hole to hold the blank onto the lathe (push with the tailstock). Then using a square scraper chisel, cut down to size and sand.
Intriguing problem!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Folks, this dude is talking about making 1000 circles.Not 25, not 120 nor even 300.One-thousand. I can assure you, this is beyond pleasant or challenging. This is mind-numbing and could cause minor to major injury.
So if he can do it by letting a machine do most or all of it, that's where I'd put my money.
Scot:
I believe that this would be my approach. Since you have already made one order, you will know what will work and what will not.
I assume that you start with the maple already surfaced and possibly sanded to it`s final dimension. I would cut the strips into squares 5" square. I am going to take advantage of the loose tolerance that you are allowed. Drill the center hole and cut the outside as you did before. Make the sawed diameter to LEAVE the saw cuts from the squaring operation. I would round up the discs on my engine lathe. I will chuck an extra disc in the 3 jaw chuck and turn the face flat and true.dont worry about the outside at this point.now cement a piece of corse abrasive to the true face of the turned disc.Set up a ball bearing cone center in the tailstock.Now the cone center will center the workpiece against the surface with the abrasive and will put sufficient pressure on the disc for the turning operation.
Use a high speed lathe tool to turn the disc to size.Lock everything to this adjustment.The backup that you made and coated with abrasive will prevent any chip out on the back side of the disc. I would now use a strip of finer abrasive to finish the outside diameter.It won`t take much. You will need to experiment with speeds and feeds to get the quality finish desired.The edges can be softened with a 1/16 or 1/8 radius cutter with bearing,on the router table.Set the depth a little shallow so that no line is left on the surface.This edge may not need to be sanded. If sanding is required,I would use one of the sanding mops from Klingspor.
If you do not have an engine lathe,I can see how a regular wood lathe could be rigged with slides and stops to do the same job.Work safely
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
how about you cut 1000 5-1/2 in square blanks out of 3/4 or 7/8 material.
face glue the blanks into stacks about 2 ft high.
then turn the stack to 5 in diameter and use a parting tool to separate the individual disks.
An overhead pin router with an offset pin. The pin can be the pivot point in the center hole that does not go all the way through.
scotso
The lathe would be my tool of choice here. Bandsaw the blanks close then turn on a lathe. Use a faceplate smaller in dia. than your finished part. Mount a scrap on it and turn it the size of the plate. Face it off as flat as possible and glue a piece of sandpaper to the face. Now all you need to do is put a blank against the plate, put a live center in the tailstock and run it up tight against the blank and turn it. A chisel with the correct profile could be ground so all you would need to do is take one straight in cut. Clamp a depth stop to the chisel to control the dia. of the parts.
Rich
The Professional Termite
Rich and everyone, thanks for all the ideas!
I am going to make some calls about the CNC option but would like to keep the money in my shop. In my shop I will start with the lathe and custom shaped chisel idea. Then try the router table and overhead pin setup.
Thanks again for your input.
Scot
You don't need CNC. I'd use a rotary table and a milling machine.
You know, they do make laser machines that will cut through 3/4" wood. Kinda pricy, but they can cut any shape you can dream up and do it at 0.001" tolerence. I saw them demo'd at the Houston woodcraft show 3 or 4 years ago. The one I saw would accept stock about 2'x4' in size and could cut dozens of pieces at a few seconds each. They can also be set for variable-depth etching. Great for putting portraits, logos, etc. onto wood.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Scot, go CNC. How much is your time worth, how long will it take you to make one circle? Simple math. If you are making money making them on your own, you will probably make more (for the time invested) subbing it out.
Call Brant (819) 459-3353. He'll let you know. I use his services all the time.
hole saw on a drill press..remove the pilot bit. If ya don't like that, a flycutter, in a drillpress..forget the lathe.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Sphere,
A fly cutter would be practical to make a few disks, but using a fly cutter requires a gentle touch and your full attention to prevent the bit from grabbing and bending the cutter. I wouldn't want to have to keep that kind of focus going for a 1000 disks or even a hundred.
A fly cutter also needs a pilot bit to keep the cut out disk from jamming the bit when the disk is cut free from the stock. In this case, a pilot bit can't be used because the disks can't have a through hole, I asked that question earlier. It's possible that some type of vacuum hold down system could be created to eliminate the need for a pilot bit but the design would have problems.
Another problem I see with a fly cutter is the limited life of the steel bit, although a carbide one could be made for the job. A common problem with fly cutters is that they tend to leave burn marks on the edge of the disk and maple is one of the easier woods to burn. Carefully shaping the tip of the cutter can greatly reduce the chance of burning but I don't know if it would be possible to achieve that with a carbide cutter.
John W.
John W.
If the hole saw is used..stop just shy of going through and (having over thick stock) thickness away the back side..run it thru the planer..same with the fly cutter, I have a two wing that accepts inserts and one can be slightly less diameter and follow cut the first..cleans up the intial cut and shares the load. There is always a way..
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I can't believe everyone else wasn't curious as to WHY you are making 1000 wooden disks.
Did I miss something..
Cause somebody is paying him to make them...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Here's a thought: hot glue or double-sided tape stacks of square blanks to the maximum thickness your bandsaw can take (probably 7-15 disks). Use a circle jig to cut the whole pile at once. Make a lot of these stacks. Now sand the edges somehow, perhaps by using a sanding belt in place of the blade on your bandsaw, and the circle jig again. Or a lathe. Now break apart the disks, and clean them up. That might not be as easy as you'd like for 1000 disks. Finishing the faces before cutting disks may simplify removal of glue or tape residue. Something like shellac might be brittle enough to glue the stacks but break apart to release them, allowing you to even it out later as a finish.
Or maybe you could rig up a very elaborate circle cutter on your router table. You would want to be able to turn the workpiece, and to slide the pivot point toward the bit, but have a stop at the desired radius. A roughed out blank attached could be turned as it approached a bullnose bit, cutting it to round and forming the finished edge in one operation. Ideally, the turning of the workpiece would be done automatically by a powered rubber wheel, and you would simply guide the pivot point toward the bit. The router table attachments described in the new FW incorporate some of the features you'd need, but there would be a significant amount of development needed to try this.
What about a drillpress with a 5" holesaw/pilot bit removed.Would cut straight being in a drillpress I would think.SGB
New issue of FWW has article on router table that includes the plans for a simple pin router.
My old Monkey Wards RAS has a 20,000 rpm spindle on the side opposite of the blade. I can rotate the motor 90 degrees and use it as an over arm router. Neat thing is you can cut perfect circles with it using a pin in the table and rotating the piece. But, it would take several passes to cut 3/4" thick circles. Lowering the bit is done by cranking the front handle. Also have to rig up a kick back block to prevent the bit from grabbing the piece. Be a slow way to make 1000 circles though!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Scotso,
This discussion has been beat to death by now. That's ok, but it has been obvious from the start that the most experienced individual involved is yourself. Only you have actually cut 1000 discs and only you can judge if doing it again by hand is worth it to you.
That said, another two cents worth from another, who is really guessing: I'd avoid a router like the plague because you would have to climb-cut to avoid tearout and after the first 100 you'd be way out of patience, get impatient, and probably get hurt. I wouldn't use a lathe either....it simply sounds too slow and complicated unless you have a good duplicator which you probably don't have otherwise you would be already trying it. I would expand on the method you already used: bandsaw, sander, router. Figure out a way to avoid burning the wood and blistering your fingers. Make better fixtures...improve on what you already know.
sophie you beat me to it.
scotso I make free hand curves all day and the thought of cutting those little pieces with a pattern bit made me cringe. Routing maple up-hill wont work. The original way sounds the best to me too. I would use my edge sander indexing off the miter slot so you can move the table up or down and change the paper often. I would try 100g or 80g. Improve jour jigs.
How long did it take to make the first round of a 1000?
Jeff in so cal
If you attach a small rubber tire, like something from a kids toy, to the end of a power screwdriver you can just press the tire on the side of a disk to make it revolve around a pivot point. It will eliminate the blisters from hand turning.
John W.
i just skimmed over all these replies and didnt see it if its there, but has anyone become curious what all these discs are even for? I'd like to know.
Custom Cabinetry and Furniture
http://www.BartlettWoodworking.com
What about face gluing 3/4" stock with hot glue, about 25 or so at a time and turning the block on the lathe and then popping them loose from one another fully finished except for the edge easing?
oh and as for the edge easing, on the router, don't try to spin the block, instead, grip it somehow(hand or otherwise) and run it around the router bit with a bearing. YOur hand shouldn't rotate, just trace a large cirlce around the bit, it's a lot easier to maintain a constant speed this way. I make two x half inch rings with this method and it works well. cheers, Dan
You could get yourself a carbide blade for your bandsaw, and you'll have a lot less cleanup to do on the sander. Or you could go with a pin router, and make a jig to rout them out, with a vacuum clamp to hold them on the jig. Another option would be to use a milling machine with a boring head. This is basically like using a drill press and a fly cutter, except on steroids. It should be ridgid enough to handle a job like this no problem.
Now I'm just thinking out lound hear, but what you could do is cut the circle to final size, with a rounded edge all in one step with a router, using the roundover bits with no bearing. Just plunge in a little at a time, and in a few passes you will be done. Or rough them out first, and then you could be done in 1 pass. The hardest part would be building a jig so that you would be able to hold the part and spin it safely while doing a climb cut. But a little time spent designing a good jig shouldn't be too difficult.
Hope this helps
Andrew
Scotso,
Like others, I'm curious about the intended use for these disks?
It seems from your orginal post that the sanding operation was the most painful, also, it's not toatly clear if one or both sides need to be rounded over?
Does it make any sense at all to turn 5"x 30" columns and slice off 3/4" disks on a chop saw?...you may need to run the disks through a planner....then round over on the router table?....or with the hand held router on a mat...
You've probably started the order by now, but did you consider a spiral router bit in a table with a mitre slot? Having cut the square blanks (say 1/32 oversize) you could attach them in batches of say 5 to a timber strip the right size for the mitre slot. Slide the first one into the bit, clamp the strip rotate to form the circle, release clamp and repeat with next 5. Have a guard over the bit and use friction gloves. The edges probably wont need sanding. Move to a second identical setup to round the edge.
Ian
PS is this method incredibly dangerous?
Well I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the discs are for some kind of touristy type item like a base for one of those things that has the snow in it and a miniature town (what are these things called?)
Or maybe some bases for some find of napkin holder?
Let's turn this into a guessing game everyone. We'll ask the editors of FWW to donate a nice set of circle templates to the winner!!
Hi Brian and everyone,
The circles will be used to make hat stands to display childrens hats. Two circles will be connected by 5/8" dowel. One forms the base the other is canted at about 17 degrees so as to display a hat resting on it.
This weekend I tried using my router table with a pin and 1/4 spiril bit to cleanup a blank cut on the band saw. This worked well except for some tare out at the grain transitions. Using a pin again with my disk sander the edge cleaned up easyly. THis will be an improvement on my original process. But the rub here is using my hand to turn the disk consistantly. Some kind of a jig that would allow a motor or crank drive would be nice. Also Im a little worried about my router holding out.
I do not have a lathe. But like the idea of using one with a custum ground knife. Next week I'm going to a friends shop to test out the lathe idea.
Yesterday, I received a request to increase the order another 500 units (i.e. 1000 more disks). Who's idea was this anyway.
Scot
Thanks everyone for your input.
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