All,
Just got back from Woodcraft where they had the new Woodriver planes in the cabinet next to the LN’s…not that easily distinguishable at first glance. The price however, $139 for a #5, I think, was…
The staff said they had not tried them but had tested for flatness and were empressed. They also said LN had cut Woodcraft off because…
Personally, I’ll still buy the LN, I want the best that I can afford and that is the best I can afford. I hope LN will change it’s mind on Woodcraft, its talen me years to train my kids that a Woodcraft gift card is a great gift…sigh!
Replies
You mean to tell me Lie-Nielsen has broken ties with Woodcraft because of the Woodriver planes? I would think Woodcraft would be the biggest dealer Lie-Nielsen has.
http://www.mvflaim.com
mvflaim,"You mean to tell me Lie-Nielsen has broken ties with Woodcraft because of the Woodriver planes?" That is what I was told. I suspect LN is upset that Woodcraft would bring in a look a like after all LN has done for Woodcraft. On the other hand, LN has been hosting those show around the country selling product and I would suspect Woodcraft may be a bit upset about that. Of course, how can we be sure the info from the store is factual?...this is one of Woodcraft's owned stores...
Years ago, I was told by a LV employee that LV was being cut out of the Stanley supply chain because they were also selling record, and not the full stanley line. Now they don't seem to sell much of either, but maybe because they sell plastic boxes other than tupperware. This marketing thing is ever so wierd ain't it.Eric
I believe (but might be wrong) that Woodcraft is the sole importer of Woodriver, essentially making it a house brand. If so, that might conflict with the terms of the LN dealer contract.
Woodcraft had Woodriver made for them, in China, as a competitor (on price) to LN. I don't want to say I'm friends with the guy (LN) because I've never met him. But we do share 1 friend in common. You'll have to ask Tom how he feels about the imports but my gut says that what was heard sounds very plausible.
This has been a hot topic on a handful of forums, starting when the woodriver planes first came out. As you might suspect, every opinion from free market to tar and feather comes out in the debates.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
"they had the new Woodriver planes in the cabinet next to the LN's...not that easily distinguishable at first glance."
How far away were you standing? :) I did the double take too. On closer examination the finish isn't as refined as the LN, but then again the finish doesn't take a shaving.
"The staff said they had not tried them but had tested for flatness and were empressed."
Isn't that like saying: "I know the car drives great because I read the spec sheet?" Flatness is overrated in woodworking.
I make a yearly trip down to Spokane to visit some stores we don't have north of the border. year after year the number of stores has declined... Woodcraft is one of the last few, and the only reason was to get a hands on look at the LN tools...
Woodcraft was LN's largest reseller and they did cut ties because of Woodriver but as you might suspect the story is a lot more complicated. Woodcraft can sell a lot of product but being able to sell it and being able to deliver it are two different things... people buy these tools when they are on the shelf, if LN can't deliver a full line of products in sufficient quantity then nobody makes money. LN is not a scale business, for various reasons but mostly because of intent, LN is a boutique manufacturer.
Apparently Tom is annoyed but by most accounts he is not the easiest person to get along with. I have no experience with the man so this is all hearsay but it is well sourced hearsay. The scuttlebutt is that he believes Woodcraft copied his products, but without a sense of irony I guess as his product line is not exactly what you would call based on his own unique designs.
I've checked out the Woodriver planes and I think they are a heck of a value... most importantly they work well out of the box. All in all, this is great news for the hand tool market because it means that high quality tools are now being made available to the market at lower price points. Competition is good.
I am a woodcraft employee and I have a couple of Woodriver planes. They are very nice and work very well out of the box. However I am disappointed to see LN's go away as they have more specialized planes that I would very much like to own. I also think that LN may be shooting themselves in the foot by breaking ties with WC. They have actually become the middle market hand tool maker with others taking over the high end market. I think there for the guy that wants to buy the "designer" tool will move up and the guy who wants a good quality tool will be willing to move down. LN losing hundreds of places to display their wares, because people love to see, and hold a product, may be making a terrible decision. Just my two cents worth."Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential." Winston Churchill
I have never payed any attention to a Woodriver product, mostly because I have about all I need,andI would be inclined to go up in quality rather than further down from LN ( some of their planes and blades were not adequate in the earlier years around 2001 )I have lots of LN and some LV but I do know that if we keep farming out jobs to China it is going to make a long commute in the morning if the only work is in China.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I had also heard the same thing...that the reason for the friction was that Tom LN believed that WC had essentially "knocked off" his product with the WoodRiver planes. There is probably more to the story, but it seems very ironic since LN has made no bones about the fact that their planes are copies of early Stanley planes. I really don't think that WoodRiver planes are a threat to LN. If you want a LN and have the money, I don't think you are going to be swayed by the WR. They serve that part of the market that doesn't want new, cheap garbage, doesn't want to fettle an old tool, and doesn't want to spend the money on a LN. They actually seem to fit right into a previously unoccupied spot in the market.
I have bought LN products directly, and from Woodcraft. Though I have had excellent service from LN, I prefer to buy them from WC because I like to see the exact product I am buying when I comes to bigger ticket items like that.
I wonder if it would make a difference if Tom Lie-Nielsen were to receive a large number of emails from Woodworkers asking hiim to reconsider his decision. If this is truly just a p***ing match between the two, I think it will hurt LN more.
Woodman,Re:"people buy these tools when they are on the shelf, if LN can't deliver a full line of products in sufficient quantity then nobody makes money."
All of the other points aside, (Tom's chagrin, Woodcraft undercutting, etc.) I'm not sure that LN's delivery levels are necessarily the problem.
I recently had an opportunity to visit 3 different Woodcrafts in 2 days (Seattle, Portland and Eugene) and in the process noticed the disparity in how much of LN product was carried by each store (chisels side and plane side). None of the three stores carried what the catalog did. I enquired at the 2nd and 3rd store and the answer was the same. One store said flat out (some doctors had just taken over the franchise that was going under -- Eugene, OR)and the new owners simply didn't want to carry that much inventory. They were independently franchised and the individual store owners chose not to stock this or that because their local market wouldn't buy it. Some stores only carry about 65% of the whole Woodcraft catalogue.
Of course this anecdotal but it may be somewhat telling.
As to the other reasons, I suppose we can speculate but won't really ever know.
As to the planes themselves, I would never buy one but I think they are a great starting point for new woodworkers and certainly monies better spent on new product than through Stanley.Boiler
I don't think we'll ever really know what happened... it really doesn't matter. FWIW, I think there has been a shift in LN strategy over the last few years. They started running their travelling shows for instance. Its my understanding that they have no retailers in Canada anymore, but we can order from the website directly.
If I were LN I'd be a little ticked that they started making a plane that looks like mine... Though last time I was at a Woodcraft the guy told me to buy a LN!
I commend Tom Lie-Nielsen for making the tough decision to pull the plug on Woodcraft. I would be extremely upset if my number one distributor sent my planes off to China to have them cheaply copied.
I've had my hands on a few Woodriver planes about a year ago. I was not impressed. There wasn't much consistency from plane to plane in terms of quality.
Lie Nielsen Toolworks built its impeccable reputation in the woodworking industry by building tools to exacting tolerances, knowing that these tolerances are what makes the biggest difference between a quality tool that works right out of the box and a tool which requires sometimes hours of fettling to get it to work properly.
2 of the 4 Woodriver planes that I had experience with had serious problems with either blade alignment, frog alignment, or the mating surface between the frog and bed, which causes the iron to protrude unevenly through the sole of the plane. As far as cost goes, I'd rather have 2 planes that worked properly than 4 that didn't.
And, ROC is definately right about his last statement. It's a long drive to China for a job. If you want to know what's wrong with our economy, you can start by looking at this situation right here.
Jeff
Edited 12/13/2009 11:19 am ET by JeffHeath
"I commend Tom Lie-Nielsen for making the tough decision to pull the plug on Woodcraft. I would be extremely upset if my number one distributor sent my planes off to China to have them cheaply copied."I don't, Tom ripped off Stanley's design, so if this "really" is the reason he parted ways with woodcraft it shows he's pretty two faced.....
One difference is this. The Bedrock designs that Stanley made were not in production when LN started, nor are they in production now, nor is Stanley capable of producing them today. Tom has improved the Bedrock design, and makes no bones about what he "copied" from. In addition LN's designs have a distinctive look and cannot be confused with the original Bedrock. WC copied LN's current production and cheapened it -- no one is claiming that a WC is better than a LN. I don't see a comparison between WC and LN as valid.
"I commend Tom Lie-Nielsen for making the tough decision to pull the plug on Woodcraft. I would be extremely upset if my number one distributor sent my planes off to China to have them cheaply copied."
I don't, Tom ripped off Stanley's design, so if this "really" is the reason he parted ways with woodcraft it shows he's pretty two faced.....
Not sure that Tom ripped off Stanley. When is the last time you saw Stanley making a #9? 162? and others.
Many of the tools from the Stanley base design have been discontinued. LN picked up the ball and took the tool to a quality level Stanley just could not reach. Additionally, woodworkers can use the tools they purchase. For me to find a #9 to use would cost me 1200-1500 at auction and the blade is no match for the stuff LN is fitting. Some say Stanley did the best that they could with the technology at the time-granted. Look at the tool they are remanufacturing today? I looked at the 162 from Stanley and its an embarrassment. For me its like walking past the Makita routers to get a Sears router.
I have examined a good number of Stanley planes with adjustable mouth features and not a one has been milled and fitted out like the first LN I examined. The stuff is well made. WC could have been a little more subtle in their quest to fill the inexpensive-middle cost void.
Not the end of the world but I hope LN stays on track and continues to innovate and compete with LV. Some of us out here need specialized hand tools to get the job done and get the piece to the customer.
later
dan
Dan, All,
I have been away from Knots for a while. Just got back and read this entire thread. Quite interesting. Lots of different "takes" on the situation of LN dropping Woodcraft. I first heard about it months ago when the Woodcraft store that I work for posted the letter from Lie Nielsen. I really felt bad about it. I have most of the tools that I need, but was buying a LN every month or two, and still had some to go on my list. But "the jig was up". So I put in an order for everything I "needed" and got it in under the wire.
The most interesting thing about this thread is what it didn't say. Why didn't someone bring up the fact that Lee Valley is dropping Woodcraft. WC didn't sell many LV things but we sold a lot of those items that we did stock. IMHO, LV and LN are both top-notch makers. Losing both of them is not going to boost WC's image. They are left with planes from Stanley, Wood River and Groz. I have used all three, but wouldn't own any of them. (except vintage Stanley's, of course).
The Woodcraft stores are owned by Franchisees, who can stock and sell things that they don't get from Woodcraft Headquarters. I believe that some of the Franchisees are going to try to make independent deals with Lie Nielsen. I sincerely hope that works out. I have heard that no deals with LV will be possible. I don't have facts on either of these statements. They are just what I have heard.
I sense that Woodcraft is increasing their reliance on wholly-owned brands, such as Pinnacle and Wood River. There is no reason that those brands cannot be increased in quality, but there is no indication that they are trying, either. That is disappointing.
Oh well, WC still sells Pfeil Swiss Made gouges, chisels, etc. Those are high quality hand tools.
Over my three years as a part timer at Woodcraft, my most fond memories are the times when someone asked about a Groz or a Wood River or a new Stanley plane, and asked my opinion, which I did not voice, but I did hand them a Lie Nielsen to hold and to try. Amazing the number of people who bought a LN after that experience, and very few words from me.
Woodcraft is selling Rob Cosman's new Dovetail saw. I don't have any facts on this either, but somehow I get a sense that Rob will be playing a bigger role in Woodcraft. Let's see what happens.
Woodcraft sold LN planes and tools for the same price that one could get them directly from LN. If you bought at the Woodcraft store, you paid tax. If you ordered from LN, you paid shipping. The only thing that you got "extra" from Woodcraft was the chance to see and hold the tool before you bought it. However, the Woodcraft stores that I have visited didn't have a big selection of LN tools. Customer service by phone at LN is phenomenal. So most folks wont lose much by not being able to buy LN tools at Woodcraft (except for employees who got a pretty good discount :-)
Have fun. Merry Christmas.
Mel
JeffHeath,I have been going to the LN Tool shows for some years now, the last one was Dec. 4-5 up here in Boxbrough, MA. In the past he has invited other plane makers and its been a great learning experience. Tom is at every show listening to the customer. I don't think he has a thing to worry about from Woodriver. There have been lots of cheaper alternatives to LN in the marketplace for years and LN appears to be doing okay.We don't know what if anything went down between LN and Woodcraft but I would hope things could be patched up. My guess is that Woodcraft looks at Veritas and thinks maybe I should be making the tools I'm selling too. It's a tough business invironment for both companies.
Let me clarify. I don't think for a second that Tom LN gives a hoot about Woodriver planes. There's no comparison, just like there is no comparison with the latest Stanley offering. Those planes, btw, are equally inadequate in fit and finish, from what I've seen so far. I believe that LN has issues with Woodcraft over Woodcraft's decisions in the matter. In my opinion, LN only has much to gain by the advent of Woodriver Planes into the market place. Many people who don't think they can afford a LN plane will buy the Woodriver plane instead of having no plane at all. Once they catch the bug (and we've all been on that slippery slope) they'll want to UPGRADE. That word represents a huge new influx of business of people who have the hand plane bug, and want to see what a quality plane can do to increase their woodworking skill level, as well as their enjoyment of the process.Lie Nielsen (furthermore LN from me) has to make intelligent business decisions that make sense, economically speaking, to him. Becoming larger requires a HUGE investment in equipment and labor. This labor has to be trained to produce a tool with high tolerances and exacting standards. The more hands each tool goes through, the more likely there are to be mistakes. If he's quite happy with the size of the company presently, and doesn't see the need to increase production in order to continue to make a healthy profit, then "why bother?". I would rather have a serious backlog of customers desiring tools, and keep the quality of each tool produced at its current high level, than to increase production and reduce quality. Eventually, the decline in quality catches up with a production company, and business comes to a crashing hault in the end.I believe Tom LN has his finger on the pulse of that issue, and is basing his decisions on that. How many yacht's can you water ski behind, anyway?Jeff
Again this is hearsay so if it's not entirely accurate don't say I didn't put the disclaimer on. Woodcraft and LN had been at loggerheads for years because LN wasn't producing enough supply to meet demand and Tom would not make the investment to boost output. This is what led WC to offer their own line of hand planes, one that they could control. Woodcraft has a business to run just as much as LN does, and all of those WC stores are locally owned and operated so I have a lot of sympathy for WC on this topic. The margins are actually pretty thin on a lot of the products they sell (consumables drive the numbers) and when a supplier isn't delivering (Jet is another problem) it creates a lot of problems down the chain. Tom is probably mad at Stanley now for reintroducing premium planes. RE jobs to China... we should be looking closer to home for the reasons why these businesses are not investing here. When Toyota shut down NUMMI in California all the politicians ran down there with promises of tax breaks, cheap energy, and infrastructure improvements... if all those things are supposed to be good for the 4,500 jobs at Toyota, then why are they not good for every other manufacturing business in the state? We've lost a quarter of the industrial jobs in this state because *ucktard politicians in Sacramento have created a system that is best summed up as tyranny by regulatory agency.
I commend Tom Lie-Nielsen for making the tough decision to pull the plug on Woodcraft. I would be extremely upset if my number one distributor sent my planes off to China to have them cheaply copied. JF
I'm with you Jeff. I don't have a stable full of LN stuff but I have used them and examined them closely. They are an upgrade of the Stanley tools. Additionally, they make tools like the LA Jack available to average woodworkers who never could have used this collector tool.
I have wanted a Stanley #9 since 1976. Today, using one of these 1200.00 planes would be ... questionable. The LN redo is actually made better-- for using as a tool. It also leaves the originals for the collectors and preserves the originals for the books.
I want LN and LV to make it. I will support them when I can and walk past the "look alikes." That's just me. No hard feelings directed at WR.
Edited 12/13/2009 7:06 pm ET by danmart
Wow, I was just in two on Friday & Saturday and saw both cases full of LN stuff. I've looked at the wood river stuff and it does look good. To be honest, I've not tried one, but they look good. I do have a few of the LN's and they are sweet. Makes you smile just to pick one up and use it. I hope that not all drop carrying them because I'm hoping after the first of the year to pick up a couple specialty planes (got to save some pennies). I don't see them really competing though. Makes no differnce to me, I will purchase online, but do love shoping in DE and not paying sales tax or shipping. And I like supporting the brick-n-motar places when possible. Kind of like Festool, once you get over the price of that first one, the quality drives the other purchases.
...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
My contact at WC says that LV/Veritas is also not going to be selling through Woodcraft stores any longer. There was some bad blood there over some knock-off products.
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