Friends,
Baseball has a Hall of Fame. Woodworking is much more important than baseball, yet woodworkers do not have their own Hall of Fame. So we have to think about starting one up. But doing that causes us to solve some thorny issues, like the requirements for being selected, and where to build the WoodWorkers Hall of Fame (WWHOF).
Should the WWHOF be limited to woodworkers? or should it have sections for toolmakers, tool collectors, a large furniture making corporations? What about “woodworking authors”? That might be a thorny issue.
Who should the initial entries into the WWHOF be?
How do we select the selection board?
These are difficult issues. Where to locate the WWHOF is much easier. I would suggest Canada, since its climate has a preservative effect on man made artifacts.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Naw Mel, I think it should be in Berea or near one of the Shaker Villages since the former still has a rich woodworking tradition and the latter represents one of the defining American furniture styles..
Now about funding..................
Neil
Neil,
Putting the WoodWorkers Hall of Fame in a "Shaker Town" is an interesting suggestion. This morning, when it occurred to me to post my message, there was a specific issue rattling around in my head -- just what do we mean by "great woodworker"? It turns out that we all have strong biases on styles and techniques. But something that worships "fine woodworking" has to be bigger than any one style, set of techniques, or country. I started by trying to make a quick list of "great woodworkers". Of course, this is fraught with problems -- but that is what makes the issue interesting. So in my own personal, highly biased way, I came up with s list of folks whose furniture I REALLY admire. It is not complete -- just the first few that came to mind:- Patrick Edwards, who is a fantastic marquetry guy whose furniture would cause Louis XIV's eyes to light up.
- Kintaro Yazawa - whose furniture is wonderfully creative, and whose idiosyncratic joints are mind boggling.
- Rob Millard - wonderful maker of Federal Period furniture.
- The Goddards and the Townsends - no explanation needed. GREAT STUFF FROM YESTERYEAR.
- Grinling Gibbons - greatest woodcarver of all time - highly individual. Marvelously creative.
- Thomas Chippendale - a designer who changed the world. He stole many of his ideas from the Chinese and others, but he created a style which is unending.
- Krenov - Not my style, but very influential. Very interesting. Causes one to think.
- David Savage - Great British woodworker in the modern style who has been turning out other great woodworkers for a long time. He has had a large effect through his training of others. He has an interesting mind. So much for the first of the "greats" IMHO to come to mind. Putting works from this group in a "Hall of Fame" in a Shaker Village is probably not a good thing to do. (but it ain't a bad thing either). I think it would be nice to have it in a large city which is highly accessable to a large number of folks. Highly unlikely that there will be such a "museum" in the near future, but I sure would like to see one.Thanks for writing.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
No Mel, not IN a Saker village but rather near one since people often travel to these places to see the rather unique furniture
You might consider adding Sam Maloof, Greene and Greene, Sheridan, and, of course, Norm.
Neil
Neil,
Norm who? :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
neil,
Don't know how much of a woodworker Sheridan was. Certainly he was responsible for the destruction of a lot of woodwork in the course of his march to the sea, but Sheraton is probably more deserving of a place in the woodworking hall of fame than Sheridan.
I guess Custer got to be somewhat of an expert on wooden arrows, should he be included?...
;-)
Ray
Ray,
I'm pretty sure Sheraton built the motels for Sheridan for the march to the sea...PS. if you get a call from the Metropolitan to display some of your work...don't tell them your saving it for the WW hall of fame.
Edited 4/8/2009 9:16 pm ET by BG
I stand corrected...having been born in Georgia I never much cared for WT.
Neil
Let me suggest to include Lu Ban and his wife lady Yun in the woodworkers's hall of fame: Claim to fame: carpenter, engineer, philosopher, inventor, military thinker and statesman. Invented (among others) the plane, the chalkline, the umbrella; conducted pioneering work an automata and military machinery. Laid the foundation for construction in Asia, codified geomancy (aka. feng shui) and conducted pioneering work in aesthetics. Their teachings influenced billions of craftsmen throughout Asia (including Japan) and the West (including T. Chippendale).
I also propose to locate the WoodWorkers Hall of Fame next to the Shanghai Museum or Art.
Chris, Denver, CO---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Chris,
Lu Ban seems like an interesting character, and worthy of a place in the Hall of Fame. I will look him up and learn about him. Thanks for that.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Every Hall of Fame recognizes those that accomplish greatness in front of spectators. Woodworking has no spectators the bleachers won’t fit in the shop.
DustyMc
Dusty,
What a great idea. We need to put large sets of seats in the shops of great woodworkers, and sell tickets! Big money possibilities here.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Another way to make money is to ask for volunteers to give tours and answer questions of the visitors
DustyMc<!----><!----><!---->
Dusty,
Don't you think it would be such an honor to give tours and answer questions that woodworkers would pay to do it? :-)So who do you think of, personally, as three or four of the greatest woodworkers of today or yesteryear?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Don't you think it would be such an honor to give tours and answer questions that woodworkers would pay to do it? <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
No
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Dusty,
If woodworkers wont give the tours, then we will have to revert to an ancient woodworking tradition, and use apprentices!!!! :-)So who are the first three people you would put in the Woodworkers Hall of Fame?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
So who are the first three people you would put in the Woodworkers Hall of Fame?<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It wouldn’t be fair for me to pick three cause I ain’t on the selection committee. But if I’m forced I’d say; the guy who invented the ax, the guy who invented the saw, and the guy who found out that dead animals causes stuff to stick together.
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
DustyMc<!----><!---->
Dusty,The guy who invented the axe, the guy that invented the saw and the guy that invented "hide glue" -- I am fairly sure I went to school with them. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well, there ya go… got your first three picks.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Being that the hall would likely be located some where near the Fine Woodworking offices I’m sure the pick would be from the east side like one of them period woodworkers. Surely ther’s no good woodworkers anywhere else. ;)
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
DustyMc
Think it wise to start small, why not a Knots hall of fame; just think of the different categories one could come up with, I’m sure they could all be filled in a day.
Dusty,
A Knots Hall of Fame is a GREAT IDEA, and working it out would be a lot of fun.
The real question would be: would the Hall of Fame be composed of the actual people who write messages, or the personas they put on when they are doing the writing. In some cases, there are multiple personas for the same person. :-)
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Think ya need to come up with some categories first then let what may provide. Like a reality show in flannel.
On a perhaps too serious note. For woodworkers who make reproduction furniture there is what is in essence a hall of fame. That's the winners of the Cartouche Awared given by the SAPFM--see them at http://www.sapfm.org .
Steve.
I really appreciate your bringing up the idea of "Period Furniture Makers", and how different that is from designing "from scratch". I have had email conversations with Rob Millard about that. I have always thought of Rob as an artist (by my definition), but Rob, in characteristically self effacing manner, said that he doesn't really do the designs.
WHen I started this thread, I wrote a very long message with a number of "issues for discussion". One of them was this issue of how to differentially award period furniture makers. However, I have often been scolded for writing messages which are far too long, so I just shortened it, and left everything open. The result has been a good deal of fun, but not much on what I really was after - some serious discussion of what constitutes "greatness" in woodworkers. In retrospect, I should have just posted the long message. Che sera sera.
One of my favorite "issues" is the difference between the work of professionals and hobbyists. Years ago, I just assumed that the work of the professionals was always better than that of hobbyists. But I began to see that professionals have to make a living, so they cannot take months to insure that every M&T joint is a piston fit, and they cant take months to caress each curve by only taking shavings of a thousandth of an inch. I have come to know hobbyists who take many many months to create a piece which a professional would do much faster. It is probably that only the hobbyist would care about the differences between what he did and what the professional did. I have seen some great posts by Ray Pine who held some classes but found that although he thought he overestimated the time it would take for each task, he actually greatly underestimated it. To him, the hobbyists seemed to be operating in slow motion. Hobbyists often like to go to 16,000 or 30,000 grit Shaptons to get the perfect edge. Ray sometimes goes as far as his transluscent Arkansas stone, but not always. :-) Hobbyists often have far more tools and far more expensive tools than professionals. This also adds to the time involved. I was hoping for discussion of the different ways of giving kudos to professionals and to hobbyists. ( a different wing in the hall for each).
Neither the professional or the hobbyist approach is "better". Both are fully valid, and just fine. However, I have seen frictions arise, with hobbyists criticizing the professionals for not buying the best tools and for going for the money instead of for perfection. These comments were obviously always made by folks who have never tried to make a living by making furniture. My personal values in woodworking veer toward those of most professionals, but there is no sense in criticizing wealthy hobbyists for buying lots of expensive tools which they have been told are the "best", or for spending days doing something that should only take hours. THis is explained by the Italian word for "hobby" which is "passatempo = pass time". A hobby is a means of filling time in a way that is satisfying. I didn't dream up this paragraph. THese ideas were given to me a few years ago when I was espousing the "professional approach/values". As I have aged, I have become much more eclectic and all-embracing. Kumbaya mon ami.
Oh well. I come from over three decades at NASA. We could not afford to "reason by sound byte" as is so popular on Knots. We had to get to the nub of issues. THat entailed not only lengthy discussions, but a level of intensity that the Knots Police would never put up with. Unfortunately without depth and intensity, all one gets is fun and sound bytes. I hang around, so I must enjoy the sound bytes. :-)
Thanks for writing. Please never apologize for getting a serious point out on the table. I thrive on it.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel-
My question is why?
Woodworking bears no resemblance to baseball in widespread appeal or name-recognition, to take your example, or to other activities for which such halls are popular. Even enthusiastic woodworkers would be hard-pressed to name more than a handful of skilled woodworkers.
When you look at the Readers Gallery in each issue of FWW, are you familiar with the people whose pieces are featured or with their other work?
What is it that you are trying to achieve with your suggestion?
Don
Donald,
Woodworking is like baseball, IMHO, in that both have and have had outstanding practitioners. You asked the central question -- what was I trying to achieve with my question? Please read my response to NoviceNeil above. I tried to answer that question. I was trying to provoke some thought on how we would define "greatest woodworkers" in a way that has wide appeal -- worldwide appeal. Who are the people who have been very influential in woodworking? Who are the people who have changed the world with their woodworking? Who have been the greatest "practitioners" in terms of magnificent skills, even though they didn't change the world?I'd like to know who others think the world's greatest woodworkers were and are, and why?Thanks for writing,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Many Hall of Fame worthy would be omitted as you never heard of them as suggested and likely never will. I could name 5 locals in the Georgia WW Guild alone that could be included but won't... as you have never heard of them and likely never will as they don't seek attention ouside of local. As Don stated.. this isn't really a spectator sport nor will it. Not to be exposed on national TV.. etc. as the over-all interest is just not there.
Selecting a selection committee alone would be a major task as "who" is really qualified to select them? If you are serious about this matter.. you might add to your concerns before the fact.. how are you going to handle selection of Hall of Famer's if they fail a test for the use of Wood-working Enhancement Drugs?
Off to the solace of the shop where there are no spectators.. no commercials.. no glory sought on the playing field and no interruptions by those seeking an auto-graph for their son or daughter who is an up and coming WW who seeks to make it to the "Big Show". ha... ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
I know about the "local greats". There are many in the world. I was thinking more of folks who had a bigger impact on woodworking. I don't know if Thomas Chippendale ever made anything, but as a designer he changed the world.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I ain't buying a ticket unless you include those guys from 5000 years ago to present and there's another challenge for you. How bout that Egyptian fella that did those nice DT's before Frank Klaus knew what a DT was?
Looks as if you're going to have a busy day working all this out. :>)
Regards...
Sarge...
who is now off to the solace of the shop finally as he knows details are being properly handled wisely during his absence
Sarge,
that Egyptian guy might have been first with the DTs, but Frank is the fastest!
So we need them both. :-) MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I don't know if Thomas Chippendale ever made anything, but as a designer he changed the world."Boy, Mel, you certainly get caught up in your own enthusiasms. Chippendale certainly had an influence on furniture design, but can you elaborate on how he changed the world? Compared to something like, say, the spread of the Internet or the germ theory of disease?Don
Don,
"Changed the world".
Well, McDonalds did that for hamburgs. Walmart for cheap stuff. Baskin Robins for ice cream. The world is different after McDonalds, Walmart and Baskin Robins. Maybe not for the better??????
When I say that Tommy Chips changed the world, I just mean he had a big and long lasting effect on furniture design. My guess is that Chippendale will always be made.
My interest was in "people who have been very influential in woodworking". Some are designers, some are woodworkers, some are toolmakers, some are entrepreneurs. etc.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Since you mention 'change the world' and McDonalds in the same post, someone has to include Ikea then, I suppose. I believe you did add the comment 'Maybe not for the better?', and that seem to have the same emphasis for Ikea.
FFFW,
I see both good and bad in IKEA and in McDonalds. Has there been any company in the history of the world which has made and sold more furniture than IKEA, or hamburgers than McDonalds?Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Or as my brother used to say, "Ten billion flies can't all be wrong. Eat $hit."
Ray
Ray,
Dancing with a Woodworker" and "Woodworker Idol" sound like great shows. How about "Woodshop SURVIVOR", in which twenty Knots subscribers are put on a tropical island and divided into two tribes. They face challenges each week (like making a piece of Art Nouveau furniture out of purpleheart and mango roots.) Each week, one woodworker has to go home. It is hot and sweaty out there in the desert. Luckily they always have some great looking women in the mix. So we would have Forestgirl and Maddy in the group.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Boy I can think of some great pairings for THAT show...let's see...Adam and Lataxe and Charles and rdgreen and Derek and you just off the top of my head recalling a recent onerous thread..some sharp chisels and maybe no one would make it home...susequent scramble to Lataxe's shed to ensure the safety of his beloved planes ..oh the humanity!!!
Neil who will stay home and periodically tune it to watch the mayhem
Neil,
Gawdsavus from becoming famous or any kind of celebrity. If one acquires that status two things happen:
* Celebrities lose all sense, logic and perspective such that they become involved in ludicrous behaviours and antics-extreme. They espouse oipinions garnered from the asylums on Planet Zog.
* The celebrity acquires a huge inflate of pomposity and self-belief, such that the ludicrous behaviours and antics seem to them to be the epitomy of good taste and wisdom. These feelings are even more inflated by the fawning attentions of fanboys and groupies such as Mel.
If I see a celebrity-thang coming I cross the street reet quick. I lose all my good samaritan instincts in the presence of such creatures. Indeed, I feel the persona of Pest Exterminator coming on and have to quickly hurry off to the shed before there is an incident that will lead to rozzers, beaks and turnkeys getting involved in my life.
Lataxe, skeptical of fame and the fawning fans that fabricate it.
You have an incredible gift for self-description.
Let the games begin!!! Where's those chisels?
Mel ,
Not sure how far back you want to go but ,, there was this very prehistoric sort of Carpenter fellow his name was Joseph , he had a son and there was a handful of other woodworkers that was sort of an early union if you will . One was named Joshua , as the story goes he was a dandy wood carver .
I guess you were meaning incredible works .
These names and a few others might fit right in .
regards dusty . almost always
Dusty,
Why not go back that far.
Woodworkers have done some great things outside of woodworking. Joseph didn't do too bad. Raised his son real well. You know, in the Woodworkers Hall of Fame, we need to have a special wing for box makers.!!!!!Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sarge,
I think you and Mel have hit on something. A tv show along the lines of Dancing with the Stars, where amateurs in revealing shop aprons join up with someone like Adam, Derek and Norm to create a masterpiece in an hour. Let Roy Underhill be the MC.
Or an American Idol format, where woodworker wannabes sharpen a chisel in front of a panel composed of Derek, Adam, and Norm, were they are then critiqued on their grinding, jig set-up, waterstone flattening, and sandpaper adhesive abilities. Call in your vote NOW!
How about a CSI type show, where a different piece of dilapidated furniture is dissected and analysed each week to see where its feet went, why its joints failed, and what caused those mysterious stains on its top...
Ray
First... I would give Mel ALL the credit on this as I was merely commenting on why I personally feel I can accomplish more in my shop than opening a can of worms with a chisel as is going to happen here. But.. with that said.... my heart does pound faster at your suggestion of having a show like Dancing with the WW Hall of Fame'ers if.. if.. Editha.. Mary Anne.. Cheryl and the like are allowed to dance the Argentine Tango in front of the work-bench where the "master-piece is being created in the hour slot. To me.. that Argentine Tango by those young.. hot ladies is a Master-piece that probably won't get duplicated with a hand plane of any vintage.
Well.. coffee break is over so back down to the finish portion of the show to think while more is applied. I always think clearer when the fumes from naptha.. mineral spirits.. etc. permeate the shop. Kind of like mind expansion back in the 60's I tell you.
I will give Idol some thought but it would be hard to duplicate Paula and Simon as they are in a league of their own. Possibaly a league that is not from this universe? :>)
Sarge..
Sarge,
I can picture an episode where Sgian, cig in mouth, relaxes after demonstrating to Angelina how to subdue unruly figure, "Aye, Lass, 'at's how it's done, proper."; meanwhile FG has to put Brad in a snaffle-bit to lead him thru the double twisted dovetail layout, "Pay attention, now, (yanking on the reins) you're coming at it backwards, dear. Don't make me put my spurs on."
Ray
I think the potential of... a good time may be had by all could very well apply to this topic. In the Sgain scenario.. I would switch the cigar to a Marlboro hanging from his lips.... just as the one that he hangs from his lips when playing rugby. He claims it helps him maintain balance. That's his story anyway. :>)
Sarge..
Sarge,"Paula and Simon"
Who iz dis P and S peoples.
Related to Garfunkel?
Never watched Idol - never will.
AH, but the Tango! That would even get Krenov to plane a leetle faster,Doc
Paula is Paula Abdul and Simon is Simon Cowell who is a British Record producer. Both have been on the show as judges since the beginning I believe. Paula is sweet on the show but can be a bit "spacey" and Simon is the stiff... upper lipped Brit who doesn't dole out many compliments. The audience usually boo's him when he gives his comments which are often negative and sometimes rather rude. He and Paula are always at each others throat kind of like some of the threads here. :>)
But.. if you ever do get complimented by Simon.. the contestant knew they gave a command performance. I don't like TV much with exception of History.. International History.. Military channels but I do like both the Idol show and Dancing with the Stars. Some pretty good singers make it to the finals and the women professionals on Dancing are just hot.. red hot.. Love those leg warmers when they show practice.
Enough said... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Edited 4/14/2009 12:43 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Pssst Sarge ...know where I can score any of those Woodworking enhancement drugs?....sure could use some this weekend...gotta big date in my shop..
Neil, sufferer of woodwork erecting dysfunction
Pull up in my cul-de-sac around 10 PM Friday night.. Turn off your head-lights and then turn them back on. Repeat this twice. An old fart will suddenly appear at your passengers window so have it down so an exchange can be made after you are directly ask if you are WW'ing po-lice. You must present valid ID.
BTW.. cash only...
Sarge...
who has a side-line job that must be cloaked in secrecy... :>)
Edited 4/9/2009 11:00 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Okay! Look for an old geezer that still looks like a hippie. I'll dig up one of my tie dyed t shirts, sandals and see if I can borrow someone's VW microbus...peace out, man
Neil who no longer takes the herb (unless it's senna for that occasional full bloated feeling)
Neil,
Try using oregano in the recipes in the Alice B. Toklas cookbook, instead of the stuff they used originally. Much more tame, and a lot more flavorful.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yeah, basil is good too...I gave up the other a long time ago...decided I didn't really like a substance that made me hungry and lazy...too many things I wanted to accomplish...sure hope this drug Sarge is offering is the real deal...really need to enhance my woodworking skills and I know they don't have a detection test for it yet..
Neil exhippy aspiring woodworker type
Neil ,
I did tell Sarge I would " keep it under my hat " but heck since he let the cat out of the bag ,,,,
my name is dusty and I'm hooked ,
I owe it all to Sarge , look at me now
d
yeah Dusty, I think Sarge is figurin out there's a much greater profit margin in pharmaceuticals than woodworking..sure hope this stuff ain't addictive....
Yeah ! it makes you feel like Tim Allen on the old tool time TV show ,,,
More power , more power Arghhh !!!!!
You and Dusty don't spend your cash on any tools today... I have to meet one of my sub's in transit up the Chattahoochee River around mid-night to-nite. Fully loaded with Panama Red---wood enhancer un-cut.
I attend to go out to the river a little early as I might as well throw out a trot-line and fish while I wait but.. extreme caution must be exercised. After a bottle of Jack Daniels I have often en-countered alien craft out there lifting off from under the water's surface which can be a real nuisance when attempting to dock a sub in shallow water. I guess those alien "boys" just don't understand I have a business to run as they can be more trouble than teen-age boys over-dosed on testosterone.
You'll have a good day now... ya hear!
Sarge..
Edited 4/10/2009 11:54 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
alien craft huh? good thing you don't do drugs Sarge....save a little Jack fer me and Dusty..you know, too help calm ar nerves and sech....
Neil,
You were looking for woodworking enhancement drugs... Watch out. There is something called ViWoodgra. If you take it and you experience a stint in your shop of more than four hours, you have to notify your physician.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sarge,Is Tim Sullivan still working in Hotlanta? He used to do a lot of major furniture stuff for the large corporations. Huge ornate and stylized conference tables. Did a massive bedroom suite for the Days grandchildren of Days INN. The divider between two single beds was a carved grand suite of a pride of lions (full size) later cast in Bronze by the city and installed in the Atlanta zoo. The man and his staff were really talented. He always had to bend his handlebar stash to enter a room :)Doc
I will check around with some of the guys at Georgia WW Guild. I am not sure as I really don't get out much anymore except to larger shows as I am buried in my own work and have been for awhile.
Sarge..
NOAH!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
GOOD ONE. Noah! He is more famous than Norm! Gotta include him. Besides he did waterproof, and it worked.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
AMEN!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
"Baseball has a Hall of Fame. Woodworking is much more important than baseball, yet woodworkers do not have their own Hall of Fame."
Sure they do. There are many and they are called "Art Museums". And you're absolutely right that "requirements for being selected" are thorny indeed.
Adam
Adam,
I grew up near Hartford, Conn, and got to know the Atheneum at at early age. Some nice pieces there. The Smithsonian has some stuff which is hidden away. I got to see the stuff once. There is a nice Greene and Greene show here in DC right now. While the style does not appeal to me, I admire anyone like that who has the guts and creativity to make some new design inroads. I agree, museums are a must! I was hoping to start some conversation about who folks think are great woodworkers. If I remember correctly, I might have listed some folks like Kintaro Yazawa, Patrick Edwards, Rob Millard.... I didn't mention Ray Pine. I don't want him to get a swelled head. I was thinking that the Woodworkers Hall of Fame would have a wing devoted to woodworking authors. We gotta get Charlesworth, Chris Schwartz, Glen Huey and you in there!!! Then I thought, what about a wing for people who are too famous to be in the Hall of Fame: Lonnie Bird, Rob Cosman, Mark Duginski.....Another wing for the Legends: Tage Frid, for figuring out how to cut dovetails with a bow saw, and Frank Klaus, who could dovetail a drawer faster than I could find my dovetail saw. Oh well, let's see if others come in with their favorites, dead or alive.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled