Alright folks, this should stir up some controversy:
I find myself trying to choose between a wiped on varnish and a brushed on varnish for my mahogany coffee table.
– I know the brushed will allow me to put on thicker coats in a quicker fashion, but it will dry slower and be more susceptible to dust imperfections.
– The wiped finish will build slower, but can I still build up to the thick finish I’m looking for?
– If I choose brush on, is the safest method to finish the parts before glue-up to reduce the chance of dripping on vertical surfaces?
Justin Fink – FHB Editorial
Replies
JFink,
If your objective is to put a nice heavy coat of varnish on your mahogany coffee table..I think you should be tied to the flag pole in the middle of Newtown and shot at dawn...wipe on finish, the rag can double as a blindfold...lol
BG, nice response...... Concise and to the point... Aloha, Mike
Having had loads of experience laying varnish on yacht brightwork, I am stumped when I hear folks hear talk about "plasticky" finishes. I understand that when you are looking at fine furniture (esp period pieces) that the look that one is going for is more along the lines of "hand-rubbed". However, a smooth and glassy varnish coat on some peices give the impression that the finish is so deep you could dive in and swim a few laps.
Guess it is just a difference of opinion. Perhaps we could find out the style of the table?
Jim,
First of all, my response was because I saw an opportunity to tease JFinks with his desire for a 'heavy' finish and just could not pass it up. Also, there really is a flag pole in the middle of the main street in Newtown, CT...and I wanted to show off my knowledge of the town. Third, there is such ####thing as an 'over cooked' finish..and 'too heavy' is a key characteristic. Lastly, my over the top solution(shot at dawn) is implying that his craftsmanship is superb and needs to be complemented by a suitable finish...or else a grievous offense to humanity has occurred...
yup, I'm bored...need to get a life...
I like the idea of a wipe on varnish finish, and also the use of a non poly finish. I've used spar for table tops.
Question: Does anyone have any favorite (non-poly) varnishes for finishing?
If so, how do you thin it for wipe on application? I've used mineral spirits, but I suppose you could make an oil/varnish finish by adding linseed or tung oil to the varnish and thinner. For a table top, I'd tend to have a higher concentration (~60%) of varnish to ensure protection.
Any favorite recipes out there?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
http://www.o-geepaint.com/ArchiCoats/McCloskey/McCloskey.shtml
There are any number of excellent non-poly varnishes. One thing, check the label for the percentage of solids: that will determine the degree of gloss.
Edited 6/3/2005 9:41 am ET by Doug
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Edited 6/4/2005 12:07 pm ET by nikkiwood
I was just bringing up a point - nothing directed at you or the validity of your post.
When I first read your post I thought I'd pissed you off and I didn't mean to. When I re-read it, I see that the "need to get a life" comment was self directed. Now I get it.
Don't you love how "well" the typed word carries the tone of a comment?
Jim,
I understand your viewpoint about "thick" varnish coats on a boat. I've owned a wooden Chris Craft and that was always my goal.. however with furnature heavycoats of varnish do look wrong, perhaps I'm not correct when I say plasticy but Those table tops with the coat of plastic resin aways comes to mind when I see varnish on indoor furnature..
I agree. . . Sometimes. As mentioned, the style of the furniture has a lot to do with how good a high gloss finish looks, too.
For a real taste of the best quality finishes, .... at least once in your life, you should try the finishes cooked up by Liberty Paint Co., Hudson, NY .... all cooked up the old way.
John in Texas
JFink,
I spray it on, much less sanding involved and it's far easier to do a nice job.
Frankly consider using shellac.. varnish always winds up looking too plasticy unless you get the semi gloss and then it just looks dull. Where as shellac developes this rich depth that varnish never will and it's soooooooooo easy to repair if it should get scratched!
(just wipe with a cloth dampened in denatured alcholol, scratch disappears!)
wipe it on, even if you have to do several more coats it will be worth it. Brushing may go smoothly, but then again it could turn into a nightmare.
Alright folks, this should stir up some controversy:
I find myself trying to choose between a wiped on varnish and a brushed on varnish for my mahogany coffee table.
I use a good rubber squeegee fer that!
Use wipe on for everything except the top. Use brush on for that so you will get as much protection as you want. After applying 2 more coats than you think you need on the top, wet sand it level and then apply 1 wiping coat on that. Peter
I like that idea about the final coat. Seems "almost" obvious but yet never occoured to me. I'm gonna try it.
Wipe it on--the whole thing. You will be able to get your film finish done before you could brush it on and wait for it to dry. I see no reason to brush on the table top coat (of either of the projects mentioned). You will have an adequate protective finish with 8-10 wiped on applications for the top and perhaps 6 for the sides. It is a no brainer.
And while you are at it, you might even try a non-poly varnish for a truly deep finish.Gretchen
Just me.. Tops.. I wipe seveal coats.. Wet sand between each. Final coat I use my VERY expensive old brush I got from my GrandPa...
Wipe on, once a day for two weeks. You'll have a great finish by that time.
Someone suggested shellac--this is a no-no for a coffee table, which has a high chance of having an alcoholic drink placed on it sometime. Unless you like repairing finishes, stick to varnish.
It has been a while, but I recall Interlux "Schooner" and "Clipper" to be the most forgiving. I think that Schooner is a more traditional spar varnish and Clipper is a clear (slighly yellowing) polyurethane. If you wanted to rub it out, you could try Clipper - but give it more than a week to dry (maybe two?)
We always regarded Epiphanes as the "top of the line varnish". But I think it would be a bad choice for this application
If you want the satin finish of a rubbed-out - I think they (Interlux) makes an interior grade varnishes that go on "satin" I can't recall the name right now.
Best of Luck
Regards,
Jim
Edited 6/3/2005 3:11 pm ET by Jim
Jim,
Don't recall Interlux having a "Clipper"......Their "Schooner" is actually a urethane, though it will look like a "traditional" varnish. Their "Original" is what some would call a "long" or traditional spar varnish...
"Goldspar Satin" is the name you were looking for, it too is a modified poly. Epifanes also has one; "Rubbed Effect" is what they call it....Both for below decks or home interiors. FWIW.
Dano"Form and Function are one." - Frank L. Wright
http://www.go2marine.com/g2m/action/GoBPage/id/21031F/hiLiteSku/21031/categoryId/12987/
Here is the link to a listing for Clipper.
I didn't know that schooner was not a traditional varnish and that there was another. Thanks for the clarification on the interior stuff.
Jim,
Thanks for the link, interesting. Here's the link to Interlux: http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/ couldn't find "Clipper". Mebbe "Clipper" has been renamed to "Original"???
Dano"Form and Function are one." - Frank L. Wright
Dano, well I'll be damned..., your sentence must be up? When did they release you?Heh, heh, he...How are ya?LeeMontanaFest
Maybe they discontinued it? I wonder if this is just what is left over. Maybe it was a poor seller?
http://www.go2marine.com/g2m/action/GoBPage/id/21031F/clipper_clear_varnish_95_interlux.html
Original has got to be the true Original (Spar?) Varnish mentioned by another in this thread. Must be GOOD stuff - since it is "not for sale in California".
Jim,
FWIW, I culled some old files....Clipper Clear 95 was changed to Goldspar 95 about 4 years ago, it's now called Goldspar. These were (are) exterior polyurethane varnishes. Goldspar Satin (interior use) was Goldspar Satin 60 and before that Rubbed Effect 60. What's now called Schooner was Schooner Varnish 96. The current Original was Original 90 and before that, Superstar 90.
My guess is the site you linked has some fairly old stock they want to get rid of....
Dano"Form and Function are one." - Frank L. Wright
Gosh darn companies can't leave well enough alone :-/ . Thanks for the clarification.
Justin,
"I know the brushed will allow me to put on thicker coats in a quicker fashion, but it will dry slower and be more susceptible to dust imperfections."
Not necessarily so. Whilst it's true your coats will be thicker, it may not go on quicker. Particularly if you are going to be using a varnish bought from "the box" and a cheap brush. Some one mentioned "laying down" varnish, that's precisely what one does, it's not "brushed" on. Applying with rapid bush strokes, like one does when painting, will also leave bubbles. As to dry time, well that depends entirely upon the temperature and humidity when it's layed down. For example, I'm in the middle of a "test" using a spar urethane and the manufacturer says dry time is 4 hours at 70º F for sanding, actual dry time between coats has been just over an hour and a half.
"The wiped finish will build slower, but can I still build up to the thick finish I'm looking for?"
If you are looking for a "deep" finish that appears that you can "swim laps in" (I liked that), the short answer is "no". The old saw that "twice the number of coats for a wipe on equals one coat of brush on" is balderdash, it depends entirely on a specific brand in comparison to another. For example, McKloskey's "Man O' War" has a consistancy only slightly thicker than that of Min-Wax Wipe On poly. Whereas, a thinned (50/50) of Interlux "Schooner" has the same consistancy as Min Wax "Helmsman" full strength.
"If I choose brush on, is the safest method to finish the parts before glue-up to reduce the chance of dripping on vertical surfaces?"
No. You'll have far more hassels trying finish before you assemble. My recomendation would be to use a quality marine grade varnish in the desired sheen you want such as Interlux, Epifanes, or Z-Spar along with a high quality China bristle. Epifanes probably makes the best China bristles, Purdys and Linzers are top notch, IMHO. Work from the top down, with a lightly loaded brush on the vertical surfaces, tipping into the previously worked areas and you shouldn't have any problems....FWIW.
Dano
Thanks. I was aware of the tung oil scam- I always buy mine at Woodcraft (100% tung). What I find interesting is that while McCloskey's and other varnishes (Belen, etc) do exist, they are not readily available. Most of the larger hardware stores and home centers near me (eastern PA) have linseed oil, japan drier, pure tung oil and poly (usually Minwax), but few have spar or other typres of varnish. I often have to mail order or got to a woodworking store to get it.
The other thing I was interested in is any personal experience with home made wiping varnish. My own take is that you can use pure (boiled) linseed or tung oil for a natural finish that is easy to repair, or you can use varnish for a highly protective finish. The wiping ("Danish") oils are in between. In my own experience, you can vary the content of the solvent (mineral spirits or turpentine), the oil (tung or linseed) and the varnish to affect the ease of application and the degree of protection and "repairability".
I was curious if you or others had any favorite recipes for particular woods or using specific varnishes to achieve a finish. I've had good luck with recipes offered by others and was curious if anyone had a winner that they'd like to share.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Do you have a real paint store like Sherwin Williams, etc. They carry non-poly varnishes.Gretchen
If I choose brush on, is the safest method to finish the parts before glue-up to reduce the chance of dripping on vertical surfaces?
I put it on (wipe on, wipe off) before glue up and make sure to tape off the areas that will receive the glue to make sure I get a good glue bond.
You can use both in combination. First the wipe on to seal the surface and then the brush on to achieve protection. put a couple of brushed coats on (sanding in between) then sand with 220, and then a gray pad (3M) to even out the shine (the hills and valleys), Apply wipe on coats again to desired sheen, or forget the wipe on coats and buff the brushed varnish with wool lube or other buffing products depending on desired look. It's all a matter of your preference.
Do you want a nice finish?????
Add a few coats of BLO to darked the wood and bring out the grain if not ..
3 coats of blond DE-WAXED shellac its drys in a few mins per coat and after one hour sand with 400P w/d then 3 more coats then 800P 3 more coats 1200P then let dry for a few days and buy a can or 2 of Spray Lacquer.. Lacquer drys in less than a 1min. You can also wet sand the lacquer and spray again if you dislike the finish..
The shellac makes a great gain sealer but dont use the Non De-Waxed as nothing will stick it it well..
The shellac makes a great gain sealer but dont use the Non De-Waxed as nothing will stick it it well..
Actually, only polyurethane will not stick to shellac that is not dewaxed. Regular varnish (non-poly) will adhere fine, as will other finishes.
Gretchen
Some of the waterborne finishes are said to be finicky about needing dewaxed shellac. I don't know whether that is true or not and am not planning to find out.
Hello,
I had said to spray the Shellac with Cans of Spray Lacquer..
I had said to spray the Shellac with Cans of Spray Lacquer..
Yes, but then you said nothing (other finishes) sticks to shellac containing wax. This is not necessarily true.
Gretchen
Edited 6/20/2005 7:20 am ET by GRETCHEN
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