Can anyone tell me, we are building a cottage with eastern white & red pine timbers. We were planning on clear coating them with a pre cat lacquer, (sealed first) that has UV protection. The timbers are fresh & very white. A test sample, the lacquer brightens the grain a bit, slightly more yellow. Then the lumber guy said they will stay that way for a long time – very white if we finish with a UV protectant.
My question is: overtime, will the grain come out more and the wood darken as it matures? We don;t want it to yellow, like the old oil based varnished used to go almost mustard, but we do want the grain to come out and the timbers to be richer looking. When I look at many timberframe pictures in magazined & on the web, I think, yes, that is the look, but is it hard to tell if it is lighting in the photography, when the picture was taken (ie how old is the wood) or if a tint of some nature has been used, like a Cetol tranlucent stain.
Help!
Replies
I'm not sure I understand. First of all, are you talking about interior or exterior woodwork? All of the older pine woodwork I've seen is quite yellowish, sometimes even orangeish. This is an inherent part of the oxidation of the wood itself, irrespective of the finish.
-Steve
Sorry, interior timbers and T&G pine ceiling.
I always thought that with time, they will "mellow" / age even using a UV finish to protect. But now I am told that using a vinyl sealer and pre cat laquer with UV will keep them pretty much as they are now, very white. I just don't know if that is true or not. If it is, then I want to have them tinted a bit.
Yes, old pine used to be very yellow with aging if an oil based finish was used. I am told the new products will not yellow like that.
I still don't understand what you're asking. You say you don't want the wood to "yellow," but you do want the wood to become "richer looking." I don't know what that means. To me, "rich looking" pine is, as I said, quite yellow, bordering on orange.
No finish will completely eliminate the oxidative darkening. At most, it will retard it. How long the particular finish you're using will retard the darkening, I can't say. After five years, you probably won't see much change. After twenty years, you should see a noticeable difference, but I don't know if what you'll see by then is what you're looking for or not...
-Steve
Edited 6/15/2009 4:57 pm ET by saschafer
It just occurred to me (while I was in the shower) what you meant by the "mustard" colored finish. That is a heavily pigmented stain in a color that I would charitably refer to as Log Cabin Puke. I believe it's supposed to mimic so-called "Pumpkin Pine," which is a color that some kinds of pines get when they're really, really old.In any case, I would never use a finish with that much pigment on an interior. (There's some justification for exterior use, as the pigment helps protect the wood against UV damage, but I think I'd still want a different color...)Conventional stains are tricky on white pine, as it tends to blotch. Same goes for oil finishes. If you don't want to wait for the pine to darken on its own, I'd suggest either a thin coat of amber shellac, or to tint the lacquer directly. (Personally, I prefer to wait for the wood to reach 100 years old before it looks like it's 100 years old.)-Steve
Yes, Log Cabin Puke, that is what I don't want. I have attached 2 photos - both pine timberframes as examples, the whiter one, I also don't want and worry that using the clear lacquer will leave the pine that white for a very long time. The second photo is more what I am trying to acheive.
>> I always thought that with time, they will "mellow" / age even using a UV finish to protect.Yes, pine will naturally become more amber over time. There are two factors at work. One is UV from sunlight and second is oxidation as the oxygen in the air interacts with wood. In other words, pine will darken even if it is inside a closet. UV protectorant is only a temporary solution. As the UV protectorant absorbs the UV, it destroys the UV protectorant. In most case, even with the best marine clear finishes, the finish will become cloudy and may begin to fail in year or two. At that point you will need to sand and re-apply a couple of new coats.If you want a perfectly water clear finish, use a waterborne acrylic finish. It goes on water clear and does not yellow over time. However, UV and oxygen will still do their work over time.Howie.........
Thanks that makes sense to me that the oxygen also contributes to the aging, but are saying that using the vinyl sealer, then 2 coates of 10 degree precat lacquer - it will go cloudy & I will need to sand and re-apply a couple of new coats in a couple of years?? We have a ton of T&G pine for the ceilings - mostly high vaults 23 ft ceilings and there is no way I going to sand it off and reapply in a couple of years (or pay someone to do it :)
So, I should we asking for a water based acrylic for the t&G on the ceilings instead of the pre cat lacquer?
No, Howard is talking about exterior applications in full sun. Don't worry, you're fine. ;-)
-Steve
Whew! Thanks.
There are hordes of products, lacquer and otherwise. that don't have UV absorbers added, that would be no more expensive nor any more difficult to apply. Waterborne acyrlics would also be in the category, very light to begin, the finish itself doesn't darken, though the pine will, pretty much no matter what you do. UV absorbers only slow the process.
For that matter shellac, which can be had in a variety of very nice and subtle colorations, not just the very orange "amber" color. Shellac is very color stable and doesn't darken over time. Probably slows moisture transfer into and out of the beams a bit more than the pre-cat. Certainly is quite amenable to spraying in such a situation, though it's natural sheen is gloss, if that is acceptable.
Thanks, I think I have been led astray that using a lacquer with UV they will stay white forever.
Is the finisher touting the UV protection? I'm having some trouble grasping the marketing angle. It's not like indoor woodwork gets much UV exposure anyway.
The photo on the left looks like the wood has some sort of white stain on it. I doubt that any wood would stay that white for very long, regardless of the finish.
The photo on the right look like what you'd get after a few years with an ordinary clear finish, such as the waterborne acrylics that the other Steve mentioned, or conventional lacquer. The lacquered wood will darken more quickly, because the lacquer itself will darken somewhat all by itself; wood finished with a waterborne finish will take longer, but will eventually get there.
-Steve
Edited 6/15/2009 11:25 pm ET by saschafer
No, the finisher is saying it will change, it was the lumber guy telling me if they get UV protected & vinyl sealer & pre cat lacquer, that they will not change and stay white.
I think your "lacquer" must be a white tinted lacquer, and yes, it probably will stay mostly white.
Orange shellac on pine is the warm glow pine in my experience with furniture.Gretchen
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