I am going to be making cabinet cases with 3/4″ plywood, and there are some deals on at the local lumber yard that i’m considering. The finish of the interior of the cabinets is not a huge concern, so long as it does look finished. For $40/sheet (cdn) i can get sanded poplar, which is smooth and clear, for $53 i can buy oak which, though it is listed as shop grade, has alsmost as nice and smooth a finish as the cabinet grade, or of course there is cabinet grade birch or oak which sell for about $70 a sheet. My question is whether one is far superior than another in terms of stability and strength. They all look nice enough to use, that’s not the issue. Is the inexpensive poplar plywood going to give me any problems with wood movement or warpage, and is it much less water resistant or durable or workable? The price is a sale price, so i have to decide within the week!
Edited 1/21/2005 12:03 pm ET by JesseDavid
Replies
My customers really like melamine for the interior finish. If you have paint grade, the outside can be painted; if you have stain grade, then add some veneer to the exposed side walls.
Melamine really brightens up the cabinet and makes for easier cleaning.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Why use 3/4 ply.? Making Frameless Cabinets?
Because nobody makes nice hardwood ply in 1-1/4".
For a face frame Cabinet 1/2 ply is fine for bottoms - wall ends- divisions, use 3/4 for shelves and Finish Ends.
Do you build Kit. Cabinets???????????????????????????
I DO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Ron ,
It seems there is some missing info in this thread,such as are we talking face frame cabinets or Euro style box's ? It is hard to advise without the whole story , we can certainly generalize though . Uncle Dunc and myself have had our differences of opinion , more than once , however in this case I will ask you to enlighten us as to the wisdom of using 1/2" plywood anywhere to build cases out of ?My first thought was it is a bit more difficult to shoot fasteners through 3/4" into 1/2" and not have any blow outs . Yes it can be done but why? Also some wall ends may get dadoed for the top , bottoms, and a or mid shelves. If anyplace perhaps for adjustable shelves of short spans could utilize 1/2" .If 1/2" is used for the bottoms then you are shooting through 13/16 " or whatever face thickness into the 1/2" why? Lastly unless the exact same specie of veneer is on both the 1/2" and the 3/4" you may end up with a mixed up look that may resemble using whatever is on hand. Just my thoughts. And yes I build cabinets and furniture for a living and have been providing for my family for over 25 years.
dusty
I'm going to go with the poplar plywood for the cases (they are face frame btw), mainly because i've convinced the person i'm building them for that since we'll save some money there we might as well do the rest of the cabinets in cherry (except fo the maple countertop). The poplar veneer isn't as nice as the birch, but having cabinets that are less than perfect on the inside is a fine trade off for having beautiful wood on the outside. It's what's outside that counts, right?!
And yeah, i don't think i'd use less than 3/4". I'm not going to say its the only way, but since i'll be dadoing and rabbetting the cases i don't think i'd want them any thinner.
Jesse David
Well for one thing I am talking Face Frame Cabinets and Interior Ply. Not finish veneerer
If you cant hit 1/2 in wall end Shooting on Face Frames maybe you need practice.
I can and do every day.
Now why dado ?Its a waste of time - Glue shoot clamp your Face Frame on -Glue and Shoot your 1/4 in. back on . Not strong enough, you bet it is.
1 1/4 staples hold just fine shot through 3/4 thick stock You know Though I do use GLUE and Clamps also- Do you know what a Sleeper is or a Stretcher frame?
I don't see why I'm wasting MY TIME to Explain myself to someone so experienced as you are about why you can use 1/2 in. ply . in Cabinets
Ron
Hi Ron ,
I am sorry if your time was wasted , that was not my intention . I simply was curious to know what advantage there is in using 1/2" to build box's out of ? A few times I did actually use some 1/2" material for box's , it is lighter and thinner but has a bit less structural integrity then 3/4".I don't use nearly as many nails in kitchen type cabinets as I used to , rather as you said I glue and clamp . IMO the reason all modular type pre fab cabinets come with backs on them is that may in some cases be what is helping to hold them together. When I hang a wall cabinet I generally will actually grab a hold of the bottom rail and do a pull up , sort of a test if you will. Yeah I know there will never be that much weight in that one spot but when the customers see that they freak out and know they have gotten strength and quality as well, don't try this with 1/2" . I do once in a while blow a nail out to be honest with you even in 3/4" , I am not perfect by any means ..To make a blanket statement that dadoes are a waste of time could be construed a bit hasty of you , gosh some folks may take offense to it.We all do what works for us , there is no right or wrong only differences , 50 woodworkers may give 50 different ways of doing the same thing .
dusty
The cost difference from 1/2" to 3/4" is minimal . For me using 3/4 ply is a selling point that has worked well for me . After working this week installing some "KraftMaid" kitchen cabinets the idea of using 3/4 ply was reinforced.
Treetalk ,
Thanks for your reinforcement of a sound idea. I know what you mean , after installing a few sets of pre fabs some years back I decided those were nothing I wanted to be associated with. You are correct about the price differential , for some reason 1/2" Maple or Birch costs about the same or more then the same grade of 3/4", in fact there are more deals on 3/4" from time to time .
dusty
Yor're right. 3/4 for kitchen/utility cabinets. Never heard of anyone using half...Although have used lots of 5/8 medx for exhibition cases. Different situation though.
My local Menards has oak ply for $37.00 and maple for $35.00 sale is good for another week yet.
just my 2 cents
I had to laff that during the lst big "plywood shortage" 3/4" birch ply was whithin $3 of 3/4" osb sh^t brd. What beautiful sheathing !
EXHIBITOR ,
Thanks for your reply, if I am not mistaken MEDEX is a weather/ water proof panel made right here in Medford Oregon by MEDCO CORP. If it is the same as I am thinking one of its uses has been for floors in White Water rafts. This has got to be some tough stuff.
dusty
"IMO the reason all modular type pre fab cabinets come with backs on them is that may in some cases be what is helping to hold them together."
Well now for one thing we do not build MODULAR. Only Quality Custom Cabinets .
A backed Cabinet looks better IMO - an unbacked cabinet looks unfinished.
"When I hang a wall cabinet I generally will actually grab a hold of the bottom rail and do a pull up , sort of a test if you will."
We build lots of BIG uppers last serval were 42 in. tall and 12 ft. long just how much weight you think you can load in something like that????? Don't tell me 1/4 in. is a MODULAR HOLD TOGETHER. If its Glued on and shot with staples it will hold - I've done it for to many years.
Our Customers know they are getting QUAILTY from our REP! Not pull ups on their Cabinets.Maybe I am reading your post wrong but I really don't think you know what your talking about for exp.Yeah I know there will never be that much weight in that one spot but when the customers see that they freak out and know they have gotten strength and quality as well, don't try this with 1/2" When did I ever say we used 1/2 in. in Upper Bottoms?????????????? Wall Ends YES- Base Bottoms YES- Base Divisions YES- Face Frame Cabinets Yes. 3/4 Shelves Yes- Upper Bottoms we use 3/4 so we can cut a 5/8 rabbit so we can Scribe it to the Wall . Do you know what Scribing is ??????? Anyway If I did build and upper with a 1/2 Bottom with a ff and back glued on it it would hold just fine.
Tell me just how strong a Cabinet needs to be? Yea Dadoes are great but on a Face Frame Cabinet the face frame laps over on to the shelf right??? when the Frame is glued on and the back is glued on + the shelf is shot to the wall ends divisions everything is tied together. You honestly think it is not strong enough???
Just to let you know we have a lot of work so much work we have about a 3 month back log , not because of no other Cabinets shops in this area I would say in a 50 mile radius at LEAST 15 other Shops its because we are the BEST and use QUAILTY Materials thats why you get lots of work- not building junk.
The only mistake I ever made was I would try to help give some EXPERIENCED advise hear.
I thought the guy was wanting to save a few bucks ???
Like a bunch of Sheep being led to slaughter. BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Im Done!
Ron
Edited 1/22/2005 12:55 am ET by Ron
Ron ,
If that is the only mistake you have ever made , consider yourself lucky.
I may be wrong it wouldn't be the first time today . but ,
From your tone I would guess you are about a 35 year old who has learned all there is to know. Not that there is anything wrong with being 35 , but for your own sake try not to stop learning and growing , there is much more to life yet to unfold for all who are open minded.BTW we established the fact that there is little difference in the cost of 1/2" and 3/4" , so "saving a few bucks" won't hold much water . Scribing ,hmmmm I think I have heard that term before . Any other terms you can teach us , who don't know what we are talking about ? One last thing that you may want to think about , when you shoot a 1-1/4" staple through a 3/4" face frame your purchase is only about a 1/2", no wonder you don't blow out any even in 1/2"materials . " It's Too Bad Ignorance Isn't Painful"
P.S. learn how to use the spell check it will make you look even smarter !
Dam you hit her dead center Bub ( let me chug another quart) Oh yea ! have learnt evr thin ter is. I stop growin when my heead hit da celin. Im just a Corn Feed Redneck Rebel Hillbilly
I got a new word for ya Luaon
I do know enough that you don't have a clue about Cabinets or BASIC Woodworking.
Ok now I understand
I did not realize I was talkin to some one from Oregon
Just a quick clarification , I am not the one who suggested you may be imbibing .
I sure have my clients and competition fooled about the fact that I don't have a clue about what I am doing . See here in Oregon we are about 20 years behind the rest of the country . My equipment consists of a chainsaw , splitting maul and chew. FYI I am not as stupid as you think I ,on my very own, figured out that the chain saw had a motor , well it only took me 6 cords . I was the first one in this end of the forest to figure it out .
You are right , "Last week I couldn't spell cabenit maker now I are one"
Seriously Ron , lets bury the ax , what do ya say ? Or as we do here in the Pacific North West , we could have a few and arm wrestle .
dusty
All
One thing I have found hanging about on this board is that there are a very large number of was to get the same result. The result we want in this case is a place to prepare meals off the floor.
In our neck of the woods 16mm (5/8") white melamine faced highly moisture resistent (HMR) particleboard/MR MDF are the industry standards for carcass gables, shelves & bottoms. Drawer bases & cabinet backs may be 5/8 or 1/8, grooved or stapled, vinyl or steel drawer sides, take your pick. Face frame construction is as rare as rocking horse sh*t. Why? Because the industry adopted the European method & adapted it to suit local conditions. We like it
Now that doesn't make ply any worse or better, it doesn't mean that a 146mm (5 3/4") kicker is wrong - it's just the way we do things, just like what you do is what you do.
Now, can we agree to disagree, have a beer & arm wrestle!
Mate ,
Thanks, I would agree to that , here in the free world we can disagree and agree to do so . Now for the suds .
good day
Your last post reads like you been hittin' the sauce. Intemperate, hostile responses like yours does a lot to liven up these dull threads.......
Hey there nikkiwood ,
You of all folks know I really try and not make insults , but more objectionable statements and questions. When people make statements that are perhaps not accurate , there are several ways to deal with it . One way, they can admit that maybe they made a mistake , another way is to fight their way out of it. I believe the second choice is what we have here .The poster still did not answer my original question , "what advantage is there in using 1/2" to build cabinets out of ?" oh well. Another day more sawdust. I agree about the cross banter producing a more sparky thread . I guessed the poster was about 35 but he actually acts like my 12 year old son , not willing to own his stuff .
dusty
>> Do you build Kit. Cabinets???????????????????????????
>> I DO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That's good to know. Next time I need some cabinets real bad, I'll know where to look.
I like the Name.
Jesse
I'm with BorisYeltsin on this, think about melamine.
We are currently building a set of cabs that are mel. boxes with walnut face frame, walnut doors and walnut end panels, cant even tell that the whole thing isn't built out of walnut until you open the door.
They are a bit heavy but if you hang your cabs properly what's the diff.
Even when we build a typical cherry cab we use birch ply for the boxes. I've worked at places that used veneered MDF for all boxes, I hated that.
Doug
edited for spelling
Edited 1/20/2005 8:46 pm ET by Doug@es
JesseDavid ,
Any of the 3 you mentioned will work. The Poplar veneer is softer and will marr and scratch a bit easier , while being cut and machined . After the cabinets are assembled ,there is less of a factor and chance of damage. Really what matters is the quality of the core regardless of the specie of the face veneers. A tight Veneer core with few voids , and more plys is partly what determines the quality of plywood.I generally use Birch or Maple for kitchen and household type cabinetry , my cost runs $35-$40 dollars US a sheet.The large majority is 7 ply , every now and then we get some 9 ply .So in conclusion the specie of veneer will not add strength to the plywood .
good luck dusty
I guess this is just to all..
Base for sink in melamine sure crumbles if it gets wet over time.. I'm I wrong?
Not knocking melamine BUT plywood for the sink base sure seems better to me..
But then again, just me. Opinions..
I agree that MDF and particle board are not real good around sinks, but Melamine has nothing to do with it. Melamine is a surface treatment. You can get Melamine on plywood.
I know that, but Melamine on plywood I have never seen.. Usually partical board that falls apart. Not trying to fight anybody.. Really
Another option is prefinished. Costs a bit more but sure cuts down on the labor to finish the interiors so you'd need to do the math. I just bought some 3/4" prefinished maple veneer core for $59 a sheet in the SF Bay Area - where nothing is cheap. The 1/2" is a dollar more a sheet.
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