OK, here is the scenario.
Although I’ve built wooden things all of my life I’m new to woodworking as a serious hobby. I have some tools including a BT3100 Table Saw, Bosch 1617 Router, Ryobi 13″ Planer, Delta 10″ Miter Saw, Craftsman Circular Saw, HF 8″ Drill Press, Jig Saw, and various clamps.
I like the BT3100 but think I would be happier with a cabinet saw.
I’ve mostly narrowed my choices down to the Grizzly G1023SLW and the Powermatic PM2000.
My shop budget for the reminder of the year is $2500.
Some of the things I would still like to aquire include a Jointer, Band Saw, Random Orbital Sander, Belt Sander and other odds and ends.
My questions are:
1. Between the Grizzly and the Powermatic, which would you buy and why?
1a. The Grizzly has a splitter and the Powermatic has a riving knife. How would that effect your decision?
1b. Buying the Grizzly would leave me some money for other shop items this year where as the Powermatic and a couple of blades eats almost all of the budget. How would that effect your decision on which saw to buy?
Any other insights and feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Scott
Edited 7/19/2006 2:34 pm ET by swilkinson
Edited 7/19/2006 11:58 pm ET by swilkinson
Replies
I can afford either one and bought the grizzly. If I were a production shop I would probably buy the PM. For a total of about $90.00 for 2 zero tolerance throat plates and a MicroJig splitter for a standard kerf and one for thin kerf, you can better add what the PM riving knife provides. If have used my 023SL for 3-years now and have no complaints or regrets over my purchase decision. With the savings you can buy some great hand tools to round out your shop.
Doug - I would not argue against the Griz having heard good things about it. But the addition of a zero clearance plate and a splitter does not make a riving knife. The riving knife always is very close to the blade and moves with it - very different fro a splitter and safer. Also, the PM2000's blade guard comes on or off in seconds so I actually use it :) The riving knife & blede guard were 2 of the main reasons that I went with the PM2000 recently. And for me, in my tiny shop, the built-in casters are a real plus.
John L
John,
I realize the difference and I have found that the MicroJig splitter has worked extremely well and although it is not as close to the blade as a reving knife, I have set it as close as possible. I also use an auxillary short fence that attaches to the Beisemeyer fence that, in my opinion, adds an even greater safety factor. I also use an overhead blade guard and DC. Can't remember the last time a piece of wood kicked back.
But, your point is well-taken and I think it is a shame that a reving knife is not a requirment on all table saws.
Doug
"But, your point is well-taken and I think it is a shame that a reving knife is not a requirment on all table saws. " Oooooo, look out, them's fighting words for many around here! <g>forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"I realize the difference and I have found that the MicroJig splitter has worked extremely well and although it is not as close to the blade as a reving knife, I have set it as close as possible. I also use an auxillary short fence that attaches to the Beisemeyer fence that, in my opinion, adds an even greater safety factor. I also use an overhead blade guard and DC. "
Doug,
I agree. I had the Biesemeyer removeable splitter on my Jet Contractor's saw with a homemade overhead blade guard. Your idea of the short aux fence is great and I agree that is as close to kickback-free as you can get (at least in this life!). I think too many folks do not use a guard or splitter at all because most are such a pain. When I decided to upgrade to a cabinet saw, I wanted to go to a Unisaw or a Powermatic, and the riving knife, quick-release guards, and integrated casters made it a no-brainer for me. For others, something else may be better.
John
You say your a hobbyist but you want to build furniture. In my opinion, if I am going to take the time to build something as timeless and used as furniture I will want it to be as perfect as possible. Skill is more the application of the methods and techniques and the effieciency of the operation rather than the overall quality of finished products one is able to produce. For this reason I would go with the Grizzly. No question, the PM is a finer machine but unless the Grizzly comes to you will egregious manufacturing flaws, it will be able to be tunes to perfection. The things that make a well built saw a precision instrument for machining wood is the blade the fence and how well its tuned.I would use the rest of my money for a jointer, great blades, and the best measuring devices you can buy eg. calipers, combination squares etc... Then chisels and hand planes and scrapers. A good planer is important as well. You may want to think about trading up the Riobi for a Dewalt. Its essential to start any project with well milled stock. Errors in the stock are maginfied with every joint. Also do not forget about dust collection. Not only is it crucial for your health but it saves an enormous amount of time on cleanup and makes it easier to do quality work. A bandsaw is a great tool and for some its a neccessity or the mainstay. Its a funtion of what you want to do. If all you really need for now is a way to may curves then make a pattern out of 1/2" MDF, a jigsaw, files and sandpaper. Then make your hardcopy with a jigsaw, the template, and a router table and flush trim bit. I digress.Given the means I would go with the PM (who wouldn't like that harvest gold goddess in their shop) but in your case the best bet is the Grizzly.
Give buying used stuff a look, for $2500 you could get a nice Unisaw with a good fence and a Delta 8" jointer and have enough for a new L-N 4 1/2! My whole shop is equiped with used stationary equipment, for me it has been the very best value. And if you are handy with machines, (you have to tune them anyway), there is some nice stuff out there just waiting to be rebuilt.
Before spending any money on a new tool, I'd decide what I didn't like about my existing tool and what exactly a new one would do for me that the old one won't. What exactly is the BT3100 not doing for you? Along with this, do you have it tuned up properly? The BT can be pretty accurate, but it is fussy with tuning and requires everything be set up right. Mine works fine for my hobbyist uses so far, now that it's set up correctly.
If you already had a complete set of WW tools, such as a bandsaw, a jointer, etc., and were now ready to move to the next step and upgrade to a better table saw, I wouldn't even have brought this up. But since you seem to be missing some fairly basic tools, I personally think you might want to rethink what tool you should buy next given your budget.
As a hobbyist, I'm in the same boat as you; I don't have a bandsaw or a jointer either; but I do have both a ROS and a belt sander. Right now, I think (and I hope others will agree) that your next purchase should almost certainly be a decent ROS. It shouldn't cost more than $100, but it'll save so much time in sanding it's not even funny. Honestly, I don't know how you got along without a power sander of some type. Hand sanding is fine for the last pass, but for the lion's share of sanding a power sander will save you a lot of time.
Similarly, I would also recommend a decent hand plane (smoothing) and chisels, since you didn't mention those. I'm no hand tool purist, but there's many things you just can't do easily without them, like chopping mortises. A basic smoothing plane is also nice for using before sanding, and also for things like certain joinery. For instance, if I make a splined miter joint, after gluing the spline in place, I'll just use my smoothing plane to quickly trim the excess down to the level of the surrounding wood. Going straight to a sander would probably cause rounding, and block (hand) sanding would take forever.
You already have a planer, which is good. But a jointer would probably be better as your next big tool purchase. It lets you work with rough lumber and create very flat edges on boards. I still don't have one myself, and I make do with my table saw, but (especially for longer pieces) that doesn't work that well. A bandsaw would also be a useful purchase since it allows you to resaw wood into thinner sections without wearing down your planer or wasting half the wood as shavings. And if you do any work (or want to) involving curves, a bandsaw might be indispensable.
I'd eventually like to get a nice cabinet saw too (but something with a riving knife; it's ridiculous that most US saws still don't have such a basic safety item), but for now, and at my current level of skill, it's simply not necessary when there's other tools I would get more benefit from for my money.
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback.
DougF
Why would you go with the PM if you were a production shop. Is it purely a durability issue?
Napie
I’m sure I will find a few pieces used but for the most part I’ll probably stick with new for convenience and reliability. I don’t have a lot of free time so I’d rather spend it working on wood than on machines.
dwolsten
I’ve heard elsewhere that the table saw is the first tool to buy and that you should buy the best saw you can afford. Although the BT3100 may be the best saw for the money I’m not sure it is the best saw period. I’ve owned both cheap tools and expensive tools and I generally find the expensive tools work better and are more enjoyable to work with. I assume that applies to woodworking as well. There are some things I don’t like about the BT3100 but it mostly boils down to the fact that it feels flimsy to me and I don’t like the short distance in front of the blade. I can also see where PM2000 features like the easily removable riving knife, blade guard and the single wrench blade removal could be very handy and safer. I mention safer because I think I’ll use the riving knife and blade guard more if they are easy to put on and take off. Safety is the main thing leaning me toward the PM2000 over the Grizzly. In the end it is only about another $700 for the PM. I’ve even considered the StopSaw. If you think about it, what are your fingers really worth? As a new woodworking hobbyist it’s hard for me to make that extra leap.
Without turning this into Dr. Phil I should also mention that timing is everything. I just agreed to let my wife buy some furniture so a single big purchase for me is easier to push through now than it would be later. Picking up a ROS and Belt Sander will be a lot easier to negotiate.
Even so, I would probably hold on to the BT3100 longer but I can still return it to HD for my money back. If I hold it a few months before getting a new saw I’m not sure I could recoup my money. Plus, I hate the hassle of selling used stuff.
Thanks for such a detailed response!
johnlill
Nice to hear from someone who actually owns the saw. I assume if you weren’t happy with it you would have said so. Looks like you bought it for many of the reasons I’m considering it.
Thanks Again!
Scott
Edited 7/20/2006 12:48 am ET by swilkinson
Scott,
Yes, I am very happy with the PM2000. It replaced a Jet Contractor's saw that I had for 10 years. I liked the Jet CS but the difference is amazing. I also considered a Sawstop for safety reasons. But the price difference was just too much. Safety was my main concern but the PM2000 is a quality machine. The fence needed a very minor adjustment and everything else was dead on right out of the box. The machine wieghs over 550 pounds - a real bear to get in my basement shop but worth the effort! The casters are a nice plus, too - a few turns of the wheel and I can move it around with one hand. If you have access to the videos on this site, take a look at John White's video about the difference between a splitter and a riving knife. There is also one about the PM2000 that shows how easy it is to remove/replace the blade guard and other features of the PM2000.
John
Edited 7/20/2006 6:58 am ET by johnlill
Yes, a history of durability. The motor is much better quality and has a much greater cycle frequency. Of course you could upgrade the Griz motor and still pay less than the PM. Most of the production shops I know use PM's although several have confided that if they were starting up again they would consider the Griz and use the savings to apply to other machinery that is more critical to them than a TS.
Edited 7/20/2006 12:34 pm by DougF
The PM looks like a really nice saw and has some great features, but given that I'm a hobbyist on a budget, I'd be further ahead with the 1023, a jointer, and planer (and maybe even a DC) than the PM alone, and still have some awefully nice tools.
Much of the smaller $50-$100 stuff is easier to come by with gift or surplus money than the big stuff (at least for me), so I'd lean towards getting the machinery while the bulk funds are available.
Definitely an executive decision for you though...get what floats your boat! Used is a viable alternative too if the right deal comes along.
Good luck!
Edited 7/20/2006 10:32 am ET by Knotscott
You mention that you have $2500 left in your shop budget for this year. Is it safe to assume a new budget starts accumulating in 2007?? Assuming it does, I'd suggest taking a longer view. As much as I'm a supporter of Grizzly cabinet saws for the monetarily challenged, given a budget that doesn't hit a wall on 1/1/07, I'd definitely go for the PM2000.
Save the bandsaw purchase for next year? Opt for a Grizzly there, maybe, to save some dough. The decision on the saw, assuming my assumptions are accurate <g>, would be a resounding PM2000.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"The decision on the saw, assuming my assumptions are accurate <g>, would be a resounding PM2000."Or the G1023 with the long rails and mobile base. I can set the fence 53" to the right of the blade.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
That still doesn't get you the riving knife and quick-release blade guard. I'm sure you know how much of a Grizzly TS supporter I am, but given the funds, with this new Powermatic design available, I'd go for it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yeah, I know it dosn't have them but it's still a very good saw and I'm working on a way to add them to mine. I went to Woodcaft and looked at the PM 2000 riving knife. Unless they hadn't adjusted it properly, it didn't look like it would be easy to deal with when changing blades. Obviously, changing blades isn't their main concern but if it's a PITA, I can imagine some people leaving it off, just like the cheesy blade guard/splitter combo what we all hate so much.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I'm curious what would make the blade changes difficult. The PM2000 has a one-wrench system using an arbor lock, something I wouldn't mind having on my old blue Jet, LOL.
Can't tell by any of the pictures -- do you snap out the blade-guard assembly, remove the throat plate, and change? Or do you just flip the throat plate up somehow? Wish we could find someone who's bought the PM2000.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here's a link to a video that shows it being done.
http://www.powermatic.com/magazine_ads/PM2000/pm2000.html?CFID=5729992&CFTOKEN=68187268
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
You need other power tools way more than you need a big buck TS. There is nothing wrong with the BT 3100, at least it has a slider.
Take that $2500 and buy the cheapest 8" jointer you can find and spend the rest on a nice big band saw. Grizzly would be a fine choice for both.
If you plan on making furniture a band saw for curves and resawing is a must. It can also be used to resize thick lumber that your little table saw can't handle. Be sure to get one that will resaw 12" and has at least a 2 hp motor (3 hp would be better).
If you ever plan on using rough lumber (that's the only way some come) or need to take out any warpage a jointer is the way to go.
Try these tools out for awhile and then think about getting the monster saw. I think you will be amazed at what you will be able to build with this mix of power tools.
Thanks for the link. As far as the early expressed concern about ease of blade-changing, I guess it depends on how much stuff you need to remove to get the throat plate up out of the way for the blade change.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Looks like about the same number of steps as the Bies. knife, I use an overhead guard so it's pull the insert pull the knob on the knife and out she comes.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Forestgirl - I have a PM2000. You can either pop off the anti-kickback fingers and slide the throat plate back, or remove the entire riving knife/blade guard. Either way just takes seconds. The arbor lock is a nice plus but I never really minded shoving a piece of wood in on my ole Jet Contractor's saw.
John L
It looked like the throat plate was screwed in, the riving knife,...DOH! For some stoopid reason, I was thinking that the blade would go straight up, not over and then up. DER!I think I need to look at it again before I say anything else about it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
It's sounding pretty user-friendly, isn't it?
PS: I like the way you spell stoopid, ROFL! Has a nice ring to it, similar to the sound in my brain when I say to myself "Well, J, that was kinda stoopid." forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Stoopid- that's the way I meant it to sound (or seem).
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
johnlill
I’m not sure I have access to the videos but I will check.
Knotscott
You understand the dilemma. Thanks for the opinion.
Forestgirl
I do start accruing brownie points again in January. The budget will probably be smaller next year but it should still be enough for a Jointer, BS and a few other odds and ends. I’m leaning towards the PM but it is a lot of dough for a hobby machine. Still, if I can justify it on a safety and convenience bases is will probably be worth it.
DougF
The last sentence of your comment is one that concerns me the most. As someone who has done all of his work to date with a circular saw and miter saw I don’t really know how important the TS will be in my workshop. Everything I read says it is the most important tool but then you say:
“they would consider the Griz and use the savings to apply to other machinery that is more critical to them than a TS”
If all machines in the shop are equally important then spending 4 times as much on one doesn’t make a lot of sense. However, if the TS is truly the most important then the extra expense might be justifiable.
I don't know that the table saw is the "most important" tool in your shop, it's just the one that you need first and one that will in most cases be utilized in every project you make. The most important tool is going to depend a lot on what types of projects you have on your list. If you plan to make your own veneer, then a resawing bandsaw would be your most important tool, if you plan turned projects then the lathe would be most important, but in general the table saw will be utilized in all of these projects to some extent. If all of your projects will be with 4/4 wood or soft woods then you don't really need a 3hp cabinet saw, but if you are ripping 8/4 hard maple or oak on a regular basis, then a horse and a half contractors saw is going to strain a bit.
I don't own a Grizzly tool yet, but all the reviews I have seen recently from FWW and other magazines, the Grizzly tools always end up being the best bang for the buck and in some cases are dimensionally as good or better than the premium brands. FWW #184 rates the PM2000 as best and Grizzly as best value. As a hobby woodworker I can't imagine ever wearing out a 3hp cabinet saw motor. To me the decision comes down to do you want the features that the PM2000 offers that the Grizzly doesn't.
Good luck,
Point well taken.<!----><!----><!---->
I'll probably be doing mostly furniture type stuff. End tables, built in book shelves... I've got a ton of construction going on around my area so scrap pine it easy to come by. I'll stick with pine until I'm comfortable enough to work with more expensive woods. Even though I plan to keep this saw for life (if possible) I don't expect to do enough to wear out any decent saw. However, the PM convenience and safety features are what make me lean that way.<!----><!---->
Thanks for the feedback!<!----><!---->
Scott
Going Grizzly for the bandsaw and jointer would save you quite a bit. Glad your Brownie Points continue to accrue! I hope mine do too, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, if money is no object the new PM2000 is the Caddy for sure. I myself bought the grizzly 1023slx. I looked at used and new unisaws and PM's and in the end I wanted to get both a band saw and a good TS. I purchased the ts and bs for a lilttle over 2k. I puchased the G0513x 17" bs (I may be wrong on the model). Anyway. It has been great. It is very solid and with a 54" to the right I could cut just about anything, although I do cut ply down to more manageble sizes so the 7" rails have not come into play, but its nice to have. I replaced the stock splitter with a microjig and use the PSI overarm guard. I love the combo with a zero clearance insert. Here are some links to the stuff. Anyways, theres my two cents worth. Good luck on the choice.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=4957.1
http://www.microjig.com/
http://www.microjig.com/MJ%20Splitter.htm
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006FKJ0U/ref=nosim/104-1926608-6623927?n=228013
You say your a hobbyist but you want to build furniture. In my opinion, if I am going to take the time to build something as timeless and used as furniture I will want it to be as perfect as possible. Skill is more the application of the methods and techniques and the effieciency of the operation rather than the overall quality of finished products one is able to produce.
For this reason I would go with the Grizzly. No question, the PM is a finer machine but unless the Grizzly comes to you will egregious manufacturing flaws, it will be able to be tunes to perfection. The things that make a well built saw a precision instrument for machining wood is the blade the fence and how well its tuned.
I would use the rest of my money for a jointer, great blades, and the best measuring devices you can buy eg. calipers, combination squares etc... Then chisels and hand planes and scrapers. A good planer is important as well. You may want to think about trading up the Riobi for a Dewalt. Its essential to start any project with well milled stock. Errors in the stock are maginfied with every joint. Also do not forget about dust collection. Not only is it crucial for your health but it saves an enormous amount of time on cleanup and makes it easier to do quality work.
A bandsaw is a great tool and for some its a neccessity or the mainstay. Its a funtion of what you want to do. If all you really need for now is a way to may curves then make a pattern out of 1/2" MDF, a jigsaw, files and sandpaper. Then make your hardcopy with a jigsaw, the template, and a router table and flush trim bit. I digress.
Given the means I would go with the PM (who wouldn't like that harvest gold goddess in their shop) but in your case the best bet is the Grizzly.
While you can't have all these great tools within your budget you might re-think your priorities:
1) Festool saw with guide rail - great for sheet goods and will complement what you now have
2) A SawStop table saw because it is the best made American style cab. saw - plus safe - but frankly that is an add-on to a Great saw.
3) A Mini-Max 16 inch bandsaw - totally awesome and will change the way you work
Just some thoughts - Bill
[email protected]
Have read thru post 21. I am SO glad that 2 other posters admit to using a Ryobi BT table saw. I used one for 10 years & almost bought another last month as HD was closing out the current model. As to the short table in front of the blade: NO table saw has enough! I recommend that you wear out Ryobi saw. The importance of the table saw is highly overrated (See Issue #1 of FWW, p. 36 for an interesting perspective). The advice that you need several other items, including hand tools, should be heeded.
My advice & its reason: Reason first: We live in a fluid society, especially economically. I have been required to move several times by my employment. The 1st time, my employer moved my tools. Most won't do that now. The result for me has been a lot of tool selling & buying. The alternative is moving them at your own expense or on your own. You might consider acquiring a 1-ton van or pickup truck as a shop tool.
Now, advice: Don't buy tools that you can't move about by yourself. I could afford a cabinet saw. I replaced the Ryobi with a Delta contractor saw. It is my belief that any cutting that I would ever attempt can be done on a contractor saw. WWing businesses benefit from the features of cabinet saws much more than do hobbyists. My reason for changing saws was that I wanted to use a tenoning jig a lot. The aluminum surfaces of the Ryobi weren't good for that.
My jointer & bandsaw nearly violate my own philosphy, but I am now retired & don't anticipate moving. I could move them in a pinch.
More advice: A good bandsaw is important as is a decent jointer. I doubt that a better value than a Delta 14-inch from Lowe's can be found. It can be improved with a riser block kit if you ever want that. A larger motor can be added later if you want. My jointer is a Yorkcraft 8-incher, but I really should have been satisfied with a 6-incher. You have a lot of choices there. Mine has a built-in mobile base, at least. I also highly recommend a floor model drill press. I wish I had a Delta 17-950. It is the only floor model I know of specifically for WWing. I have 17-965 which is a good tool. Its heaviest use is as a mortiser. Beats the heck out of a hand-held chisel. One of my favorite cheap tools is a Ridgid spindle/edge belt sander. A Delta belt/disc sander comes in handy, too. Both are very mobile though I have them attached to floor stands.
I won't discuss hand tools except to say that you need a decent workbench to hold the piece you are working on. I made my own.
Cadiddlehopper
With all the great feedback you would think I would have made up my mind by now. But I haven't.
I just watched a BT3000 sale on eBay for $280 which is more than I paid for my BT3100-1. That sure makes it tempting to hold on to the BT a little while longer (since I don't have to return it within 30 days to get my money back). Do any of you know if the PM2000 ever goes on sale? I can of course get one right now through Woodcraft for 10% off or order through Amazon and get $160
worth of Jet clamps for free but is there ever a big "End of Summer" sale or something I should know about?
Many of you have mentioned a DC system. I forgot to include that I have a Delta 50-760 1.5HP Dust Collector already.
I also went and picked up a Delta BS220LS 12" band saw from Costco today. I know it isn't a Grizzly but for $140 I couldn't pass it up. (Tool King sells this saw new for $392.99) I've also seen a used one on CraigsList for $250. It should get me by until I know how much BS I'm going to need.
Thanks again to all of you for your input!
Scott
"It should get me by until I know how much BS I'm going to need."
Scott,
None of us need BS, but there always seems to be more than enough to go around.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
I knew someone would jump on that one. ;)
Just how much space do you need up front that you can't get that a Griz or PM can give? I love that PM with the riving knife with quick release and crown guard, but I'll stick to my old Junk Saw I picked up for $125 in the yard sale till I really feel the need for that big of an investment.
Granted , the old Junk Saw does have a riving knife that takes a few minutes to release and the crown guard is made from a piece of scrap hard-wood with quick release knobs. The mount mechanism and motor does move with the blade like the PM or Griz. It's got a sliding table that will accept up to 17" in front with the miter gauge attached and lots more with it removed for panels! It does have direct drive serpentine belts like the PM, but only has 2 belts instead of 3.
The Junk Saw has the motor directly under-neath the arbor shaft with short belts as the PM and Griz. Less power loss than longer belt transfer. It now has a cabinet under-neath as the PM and Grizzly to keep the motor in-closed with a TEFC motor inside. It has a dust shroud under the blade that directs saw-dust to the vacuum port in the rear for more efficiency.
The Junk Saw has a table to the right giving 60" rip capability and a table to the rear that drops down on hinges to save space when not ripping long pieces. With a work-bench and assembly table aligned in the rear the same height as the TS table and those Rigid swiveling top and adjustable height tables behind the TS (with the doors open), it rips up to 16" feet with ease.
The old Junk-Saw has an aluminum top that Caddiddle-Hopper mentioned and not the cast iron of the PM or Griz. :<) .. But.. aluminum can be sanded to flat with a small amount of effort and by adding an additional home-made aluminum mitre slot to the left and right, has cut hundreds of dadoes "dead on". With a TK 24 tooth rip blade, you can attribute about 30,000 linear feet that's been ripped so far with that "piece of junk".
The Junk Saw even has a door on the cabinet that opens to a compartment that a small portable refrigerator fits into nicely. I heard someone ask the other day in another thread where to put the frig? :>)
So..... do you really need a new TS? Or do you just need to exploit the possibilities of the one you have and pick up some things you really need likes clamps, etc.?
Someday, if the moon and stars align; I've considered getting that nice new PM 2000 or even a Felder. But until that old Junk Saw shows me it just can't handle anything I can throw at it anymore or I'm not clever enough to master what it's capable of...... it's on the pay-roll and got a job in my shop!
BTW.. that old $125 Junk Saw that someone was throwing out is a:
RYOBI BT 3000
Good luck with your choice...
SARGE.. g-47
Research a project that represents a significant stretch from the kind of work you've been doing. Something tough. Build it with the tools you have now. At the end of the project make a realistic evaluation of what your needs are throughout your shop. Then buy what you are sure you need, not what you want.
Quit watching EBay and reading sale circulars. Let your woodworking tell you what you need, not how much fools bidding on EBay are paying for this or that.
Edited 7/26/2006 7:31 am ET by BossCrunk
I narrowed my choices down to the Delta Unisaw and the Grizzly. When you count in shipping, a good blade, and a rolling stand, the prices are very close. (My delta came with the rolling stand and blade and shipping is free from Amazon on things like this)
Then I called some of the people referred to me by Grizzly. Both said they liked their saw after making adjustments. One guy even bought the Delta fence for his. The other guy had way more money into his saw than the Delta would have cost.
Powermatic is supposed to be a bit better than the unisaw. I love my unisaw and I use it in my cabinet shop daily. Never any problems.
If you are not going to do production work, you really might want to consider one of the new hybrid saws. They run off 120 and have close to the capacity of a full cabinet saw.
Dear Swilk,
I have not read all the replies, so forgive me, if I repeat something that was said. I was in your shoes about five years ago, deciding on a TS. I eventually decided on the PM66 as that was Powermatic's top saw at the time. I opted for the 5 HP model with a 50" fence. In that time, I have never..........ever had to "wonder" about the saw. My working is such that the saw may sit for three months unused and then I will be running it six or seven hours a day for a couple of weeks. It has never missed a beat. Never. I adjusted it once and that was it. It just "does its thing" period. I moved it one day, lifting it onto a mobile base, never went out of adjustment. Would I of gotten the same performance out of a Grizzly or similar? Mabe, but I KNOW that I can trust this saw. Could I of saved $500.00 or more? Mabe, but I wanted to buy ONE saw. I think that I have achieved my goal. I might gamble with something that is a bit more "returnable", but at 600+ lbs it would be more than inconvenient. Bottom line: Would I of been happy with "less" saw.......... mabe, Am I happy that I sprung for the Powermatic........Yes, everytime I use it.
Best,
John
Thanks for the reply!<!----><!----><!---->
I went to Woodcraft to look at the PM2000 saw today for the 1st time. I was very disappointed to see that both the blade tilt and built in casters were not working on the display model. However, I assume that was a fluke given the overwhelming number of comments I've heard about Powermatic's durability. I did get to compare it side by side with a Delta Unisaw and a Jet cabinet saw. For fit and finish the Powermatic won hands down. With the deal I was offered the difference between a comparable Grizzly and the Powermatic is about $600. If I chose the Grizzly and loved it (which is possible) then that would be great. I'd have extra cash for other tools. However, if I wasn’t completely satisfied then I would kick myself for the next 20 Years. Even the folks here advocating choices other than the Powermatic don't seem to argue that the Powermatic is the "Cream of the Crop" or very close to it. $600 for piece of mind over the next 20 years is sounding more and more reasonable.<!----><!---->
Scott<!----><!---->
Edited 7/23/2006 7:50 am ET by swilkinson
I haven't seem the 2000 model, but as far as the rest of your thoughts go, I agree. I actually have a friends Unisaw in my shop, backed up against the PM. There is no comparison, the PM has much better fit & finish. I'm sure that the Unisaw is a good machine, but side by side, the PM wins.
Good luck!Best,John
Hi Scott,
If I were you I would check out ebay and or machine dealers in your area for a used Powermatic model 66 or maybe an older Oliver or Northfield table saw.
These machines were built to last a couple of lifetimes and parts are still available.
Grizzely stands behind their products and will treat you right if you need their support, but if you plan on doing woodworking as a serious hobby or maybe as a way of income then I would recomend an older used machine that was built for the long haul.
"I would recomend an older used machine that was built for the long haul." I don't know where Frenchy is for this discussion, but I think he'd take issue with that implication that the Grizzly saw isn't built for heavy, long-term use.
Hey Frenchy! We're waiting for your .02forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Not to offend you but using a high end tablesaw on scrap pine seems to be the wrong way to go.
It appears you want to move up from construction grade woodworking to furniture grade woodworking.
It appears to have an allowance to finance your projects.
It appears you want a hobby.
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If I were you, I would buy $2000-3000 in good lumber (200-400bdft). H. Mahogany, cherry, or walnut. See what you can make from that wood.
You might do well enough with your existing table saw. You might prefer to use a bandsaw.
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I build furniture as a "hobby." I spend much more time using my 14" bandsaw than my tablesaw - a Dewalt contractor saw mounted in a 10' bench.
I have a $1000/month allowance for non-business related purchases. I would prefer buying lumber than equipment.
Just an FYI. I am a new woodworker as well and bought a tablesaw first (b/c I thought that was the most important). I didn't go crazy thankfully and buy anything special (b/c of my space needs I got the Ridgid 2400LS that folds up), but now that I picked up a 14" Delta bandsaw with riser kit, planer and jointer I feel the tablesaw definetely could have waited. For what I use the table saw for I can do with a good straight edge (or homemade jig) a circular saw and a good blade. I have a 12" Miter Saw and haven't built a crosscut sled yet so I really only use my table saw for rip cuts. Honestly any of the rip cuts I've made could have been done on my bandsaw.
I would go with a four tools:
1. Dust Collector (amazon has a nice deal on a delta now)
2. 14" Bandsaw with riser kit (Either Delta, Jet or I know a lot of people love the Griz). Get some Timberwolf blades for it.
3. 6" or since you do have some $$$ get an 8" jointer (you can find these a lot on Craigslist if you don't want to buy it new).
4. Router
Scott,
I haven't had the time to read the other replies, but if I was in your shoes, I'd go with the riving knife option. (was it the Powermatic?)
Having said this, you might be better off with a true cabinet saw with sliding outrigger in the Euro style. Second-hand ones fit your budget (eg: miniMax SC3W.)
Call your local woodworking dealers (they're listed in the yellow pages) and see what options they carry. Fair enough, new isn't always better, and second hand machines might be worn out, but I'd go with a second-hand quality machine over a put-it-together-yourself, delivered in a box, made-down-to-a-price machine.
Just my thoughts, worth what you paid for them.
eddie
I have a Unisaw but if I had the choice to make again I think I would buy the SawStop cabinet saw. SawStop is coming out with a contractor's saw with the safety features (riving knife, contact detect & brake system) of the larger saw. Don't know about pricing, but I should think the contractor's saw should be in your range, and much lower than their cabinet saw's price.
I got pretty well injured on my TS. I'm the first to admit that the accident was ENTIRELY my fault and a smarter woodworker would never have done what I did, but the SawStop would have converted my reasonably serious injury (I'm still in rehab) to a mere inconvenience (replace a brake and blade). And ER statistics show I'm not the only person to have made a mistake around a TS...
Great discussion on the table saw. I also have had the Griz 1023 for about 6 years and love it. Truly I admire the polished top on the PW but could not justify it for my needs. One piece of advice, buy the best blade you can. I have an Olham (sp?) and it does glass smooth cuts. I even get burn free rips in 6 quarter cherry.
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I was really glad to read the discussion on the Micro splitter. I’m building a boat and needed rip ¾ stock (cedar, redwood & spruce) into ¼ X 16 ft strips and I was concerned about the thin cutoffs coming back at me. You can just see the splitter in the attached pics and it worked wonderfully. Had to commandeer the whole garage for a couple of weeks but I paid for the saw by milling the stock myself vs. buying it.
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Griz has a new sliding table for the cab saws. I was wondering if anyone had seen or tested it. I have been considering this over buying a sliding 12” compound saw.
grizz sliding table sucks...not big enough for large panels, too much of a pain to set up and tear down to use for occasional cross cutting...if it's set up it's in teh way for ripping...also limits clearance to left of blade and requires you to shorten your fence rail by about 6 in on the left side...
buy a good compound miter saw or slider for stock less than 12" or a RAS for panels up to 24"
Thanks for the input.
I have gone the last three years to the Griz tent sale but did not make it this year. I like to get my hands on a tool before buying it and this being new had me concerned.
Thx...
the contractor's version of the SawStop is going to be ~$1000 according to an email I received from them yesterday.
With my history of clumsiness and near miss on the TS this weekend (just nicked the end of my index finger), I'll be getting one.
I have the Griz 1023S for about 15 years and had to replace the motor about 2 years ago. Works for me. The 1023SLW was not available then but I would buy it without hesitation because I would much prefer the left tilting blade.
My 8" jointer, 15" planer, bench top drill press (dedicated as a mortiser) and 3hp sliding table shaper are all Tiawan, probably from the same factory but from different companies and they are all fine.
John
PS: I took the fence from the 1023S and put it on a contractor's saw that I use only for dados and added an Excaliber fence system to the Griz and built my own extension support for the extension table and hooked in onto the HTS base for the saw.
Edited 7/26/2006 8:56 am ET by pins
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