So I’ve been chatting with some interior designers, gallery owners etc about expanding my woodworking business so I thought I share what I’ve been hearing. I’d be glad for any comments or observations:
1. Nobody works in solid wood anymore…(ruh roh, I do!). Veneer is the only way to make a living.
2. You have to have a “production” line that is reapeatable…that is the going to the mainstay. “Custom” pieces (the ones I want to do) are few and far between.
3. If you want to build you client portfolio you need to do “shows” in galleries. You’ll need 12 to 15 pieces to have a show.
4. Commission through retail outlet is 40/60% …oww, you’re kidding right?
5. Go and sell your stuff where people are buidling $5M houses, they won’t blanch at the prices you set.
6. Sell you stuff where people go for vacation (e.g. Aspen, Sun Valley etc)
7. You’re portfolio is nice, but it’s too artsy looking. Get a bigger photos and show more detail.
8. You aren’t going to make this work if you try to sell through Interior Designers or Design Centers if you want to do one of a kind. When they want stuff, they want it now.
Obviously, these are other people’s comments not mine..but I thought some of you who are thinking of or who are starting your own business might find these mildly interesting.
Alison
Replies
Loosks like you've gotten some very sound advice, and good on you for asking around!
I'm in a geographic area that thrives on designer-oriented stuff, and has some exceptionally high-income homes (not me!) These guys and gals definitely want it now (or, preferably, yesterday). If you can build a rep with the millionaires for custom stuff, more power to you. Displaying in a gallery is certainly one way to do that. I know in downtown Seattle, there is a woodworkers' gallery that's basically a co-op of sorts, they select their members carefully, and charge a hefty percentage of your sales, but those spin off into custom jobs as the WWer becomes better known. It translates to fairly cheap advertising in the long run.
"Commission through retail outlet is 40/60% ...oww, you're kidding right?" Nope! Not kidding. And it's not unreasonable either -- that retailer has his/her a$$ on the line every month for huge overhead expenses, so the consignor is buying into all that rent/utilities/advertising/credit card charges (and on, and on), and can pretty much get out any time s/he wants. The retailer is taking virtually all the risk.
Good Luck!
I went to the Pioneer Sq. store the other day..they were one of the folks I talked to. They have some incredibly beautiful things there. There are some very fine woodworkers in the NW - I was quite intimidated, not sure if I'm that calibre yet.
I'd appreciate hearing collective thoughts and comments on the use of veneer...I've just never used it, don't really know how. I do appreciate that it could reduce my costs, but somehow it seems like "cheating"...making the piece less than a true "craft" piece. Then again, perhaps I have blinders on.
I love working with veneer. Lots of advantages, with no wood movement to contend with you can use inherently unstable woods such as burls. All of the doors and tops on a cabinet will match. Making bends and curves is a snap. The vacuum set up was probably the least expensive tool in the shop... no other demonstration gets an audiences attention quite like sucking the air out of a 5 gallon pail... turning it into a 1 gallon pail in seconds. I still use a lot of solid wood in my work but veneering has opened up a lot of design possibilities for me.
Veneering may not reduce your costs, it is time intensive and good veneer is not cheap but it will result in high quality work.
As for those commissions, initially I resisted too but hey if they can sell it for you they EARN their $. I have one limited production piece (entrance bench) that I have sold directly probably 3 times, a local furniture store has sold more than 30 of them for me in the past ten years. To protect that relationship I no longer sell that item direct. Clients have seen other pieces of my work in the store and contact me direct for special projects. By doing some consulting the store owner doesn't mind (thank god) this can be a ticklish point...
NW has a reputation going back years and has developed a client base all along the coast and into Canada, they earn their $.
About pricing, from experience I have learned, finally, one thing. Do Not Be Embarrased to quote a fair price for your work, think of what they charge you to fix your car.... You deserve to be paid for what you do and if they balk, you probably shouldn't be working for them anyway, they will not appreciate it.... Never allow "that's good enough" to creep into your work and your best advertising will be your last job...
Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
Alison -- greetings to a fellow NW'erner -- I live on Bainbridge Island. Wanna have lunch??
Some thoughts on veneer -- the idea that the use of veneer makes a piece second-rate is a commonly held, but invalid judgment. Back in the days when I owned a large antique store, we sold some absolutely gorgeous antiques that featured beautiful veneer work. Veneer has been around for hundreds of years, going back to Ramses the 6th Egyptian times for functional use in chariots, and to the 16th century in furniture (see http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tech/veneer/history.htm for more info. The quality of veneer in furniture over the last 100 years has decreased, based on my observations, but that's mostly a production-related issue, I'd imagine.
One of the most highly sought-after styles of antiques is Biedermeier, which features carefully selected and elegantly arranged veneer on case furniture (see: http://www.virtualvienna.net/lifevienna/interiors/biedermeier.html for some info)
These days, with quality wood becoming more scarce by the second, the thoughtful use of veneer is a way to conserve what we have. Myself, I've not braved anything more complicated than simple veneer repairs, and I hold skilled workers of veneer in high esteem.
Edited 3/22/2002 1:49:14 AM ET by forest_girl
"Ya Sure, You Betcha!" and a crab cake sandwhich will do me fine :).
Thanks for the interesting links...I learn more everyday, usually in a direction I hadn't anticipated.
So, I think I'm going to buy a cheap piece of veneer and stick it to something and seem what happens. I'm not saying I'm converting, just going to try it out and see how to do it and what happens as I go along. There are always surprizes.
Forest Girl, I'm from Pennsylvania and had the privilege of visiting the Northwest Fine Woodworking showroom you mentioned at Pioneer Square last summer (2001). Being interested in woodworking I noticed the showroom from across the street and couldn't believe my eyes. What talent! And what was great to see was the variety and quality of work by both men and women. They have a website for anyone who might be interested. I've been to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC and Franklin Institute in Philadelphia. Both have extensive furniture displays from the masters of years ago. The quality of work at the Seattle showroom lacks one thing compared to these two. That is that the creators of these works of art haven't been dead for 200 years. Anyone planning a visit to the Northwest should make it a point to visit this showroom. I thought I was a woodworker until I saw what woodworkers do.
Here's the URL of the Northwest Fine Woodworking gallery web site:
http://www.nwfinewoodworking.com/
They have 2 showrooms now, one in downtown Seattle (Pioneer Square) and one in Bellevue (posh-posh).
Indigo,
I am far from a professional woodworker but I do have experience in the retail industry. As a general rule of thumb when a hardlines or specialty retailer sets its price for an item it will set it by doubling what they paid for it. It is only a rule of thumb but generally not too far off. Of course they have mark-downs, discounts, sales etc. in addition to their expenses. Therefore the 40% to 60% commission rate doesn't sound too far off the mark to me.
FWIW I beleive that most individuals that are new to small business (and many that are not so new) under estimate what a consumer will pay for their goods or services, so perhaps your pricing to the consumer has been a little low and in a retail setting your work may be able to command a higher price, covering the commision.
By the way I think this is a great thread topic. I hope others will contribute.
Good Luck,
Will
Well, I'm really not a very astute business person, but I've been at it for the past 20 some years as a professional furniture maker. I've also had a lot of experience working with fine art galleries, on both sides of the fence. I suspect that those galleries operate similiarly to furniture/design galleries.
If someone told you that veneer is the only way to go, I suspect that that individual know little about how high-end furniture is made.
I don't have a product line, having been able to "make it" by doing custom work. However, I think that having a few pieces that don't require solving all the problems that a new piece presents, would be adventageous. Also, galleries and designers would know they could count on something. Your product will be a known entity.
Having gallery shows certainly is the goal of fine artists. To get there, however, one usually has to participate in several group shows first, before a gallery will take a chance on you. As a sculptor, I will gladly do a show with a dozen or more piece. I do this because I seem to be compelled to make art. Furniture is something else, to me. I would be very hesitant to invest the amount of time and materials required to make a dozen pieces of furniture if I wasn't very sure they would sell. You gotta know your market and work that market.
A 50% commission is the norm. Accept it or find another way to get known.
The comment on your portfolio being too artsy is curious. What are you showing them? You must have high quality photos and some shots should be of details. No matter what road one takes, good photo documentation is very important.
The comment on lead time is totally bogus. In my market, the designers I work with are very accepting of 3 to 6 months. If a client can't accept that, you must either walk away or perhaps burn the midnight oil, but charge for the extra effort.
I hope all this is helpful or interesting.
-- Jeff
Jeff, it was good to hear you iterate some of my own thoughts regarding production time and type of pieces...I really was dismayed to hear this one interior designer rattle off thoughts totally opposite to my own intentions and beliefs.
I have a client base, albeit a very very small one, and they are very understanding of my timeframes...in fact I managed to produce a piece faster than I thought a few weeks ago and the client seemed a little astonished and in someways dismayed...perhaps because I presented him with a bill at the same time, but I also sense that clients, or at least this one, likes giving me the leeway to "create, design" and that faster seems more like ordering something from Pottery Barn....
As to the "too artsy" portfolio comment, it was/is my first shot at having a portfolio and I didn't go to the expense of having a professional photographer, just took a whole bunch of photos and used the best ones. (I know I need, and really,really want to have professional photos taken, I'm just not quite there). I put them in a really nice book, with vellum separator leaves and black paper and wrote details about each piece in my "best handwriting" next to each photo with a silver ink pen. When I looked at the portfolios in a couple of galleries they were very different. Big, simple, beautiful photos. I'd like to get there, but all in good time...trying to keep revenues ahead of expenses.
I do all of my own photography. Granted, the quality is not up to what a pro can achieve. However, my photos are pretty good, probably better then most. I use a 35mm camera and I've invested in real photo studio lights with umbrellas. I can take lots of shots and waste a whole load of film for what a pro will charge. Some may argue that the loss in photo quality and my time spent isn't worth it. But for me.....I think that my way means that I will have photos of every piece I make and not just the ones that I can afford to have done. I have prints made at the same processor that the pros go to. I take slides and have prints made from them. Recently, I've added digital photo capability.
My cameras, lights etc. were paid for many years and jobs ago. I have no regrets.
As to portfolio: get at least 5x7 prints, put them in a simple album, identify them with typed labels.
Your local library (support librarians, they are gifts from the gods) will have books on photography and I know that Fine Woodworking has done articles on it.
In reply.
1. Whoever said that knows sweet-f-a about furniture making, therefore all other opinions proffered by that person are worthless.
2. In a way, yes, but one-off pieces still need to be made to fit one-off circumstances.
3.Correct for a one-off show. It's a big investment, and hard work, and it's hard to tell beforehand as an unknown if your investment will be worth it.
4. Is that all? One or two add about 160% to my prices.
5. Horse manure. The owner has blanched at every other increased charged all the way from the foundation under-estimate to the painting and decorating underestimate. The last people in are the painters and decorators, and they have to get paid to enable closure on the house. After that, all spending on furniture is purely discretionary, unless it's a built in, which by definition means that they can't buy it cheaper off the shelf---------- but they can choose to not have it built in at all thus leaving a space, for 'later'.
6. Probably only true if you mostly sell impulse buy level items, but I'm really not too sure.
7. You're selling art, albeit it's craft based. Many, but certainly not all interior designers or interior decorators, are essentially incompetent and know little or nothing about art or design. They pick out fabrics, wallpaper and cushions, and that's about it, and have little or no understanding of things technical, along with actually getting their hands dirty.
8. On the other hand, there are many interior designers that are very competent, extremely innovative, and understand only too well all the nuts and bolts of putting together a complete package for a client, including the commissioning of specials or one-offs. These contacts are golden to the working artist or craftsman. Those at 7 above are time wasters, that wouldn't know their arse from their elbow.
9. New category. There are crafts people and artists ranging in ability from incompetent to brilliant. Sometimes the incompetent one will always make a fine living, and the genius will starve. Success or failure often seems to depend on who gets the breaks-- but there are those that would argue that lucky breaks just don't happen, and that it's all down to astute marketing, which is also an argument with some merit.
10. Did I just sit on the fence here and there? <g>
Slainte, RJ.
I used to be positively apathetic, but now I really couldn't care less.
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