Anyone know of a good reference for hammer veneering? Never done it before and was interested for a project coming up. I have tried vacuum veneering and it is just not for me. To much of a pain. Does hammer veneering provide as good of a result in everyone’s opinion?
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Replies
What are you planning to do with the vacuum press?
I have a kidney shaped figured Bubinga desk coming up and I just really do not want to make a vacuum press that big. I was hoping to find out more about hammer veneering for the project. I am concerned though as the veneer will be bent around on the ends at a 18" radius. Kindof tight. Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
I can see why you don't want to use the vacuum press for this job. I haven't done any hammer veneering. Are you using contact cement?"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/18/2005 11:47 am ET by highfigh
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you a vacuum press that big? No thanks.
I am not using contact cement on this one. I have used CM on other commercial projects but not this one. I really want this one to turn out right.
Thanks again,
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Do whatever you're most comfortable with but I will vacuum press long before I'll hammer veneer. I have an 8' x 8' bag along with my little one. I make, then destroy the platens if there's no impending job in need of that size press and find it's entirely practical to do so. I've found myself making a few 7' diameter tables and would hate to even consider hammer veneering something that size.Lee
I also would think a Vacuum Press would be the thing to use -
Lee on the big bag what kind of pump and how many Hg does it pull ? cfm?
I what to put together a vacuum press that can handle a big bag .
It's a Vacupress, Ron. Daryl Keil and the boys will make up any size bag you want. It's probably more than many amateurs would want to spend but it's an expense I'll pay in a heart beat. I think my big bag was around $300 but don't quote me, it's been a couple of years.I'm at about 5,300 feet so the most vacuum I can get is 22 or 23 inches of mercury. At sea level I could get 26 but there's less air up here so less pressure.Lee
I did a search & found http://www.vacupress.com/index.htm great site
I have got to get a Vacuum press
Have you ever heard of a video called "Working in a Vacuum "
Thanks
I'm afraid an 8'x8' bag would not even be close to big enough. I don't even want to think about a bag as big as I would need.
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Edited 2/19/2005 1:51 pm ET by Robby
Are you considering making and delivering a top considerably larger than eight feet by eight feet? You're being pretty close-lipped about the actual size of this thing. How big is it?Most would do it in pieces and assemble it in place. Have you considered the logistics of handling a slab that size? This must be quite a commission.Lee
It is not the top that I am veneering. The kidney shaped base part is the part in question. The top is out of solid 1 1/4 figured Bubinga. The base is 4 foot wide, 8 feet long, and 32 inches tall. I just really do not want to wrestle a piece that big into a vacuum bag. Like I said before to each their own but I just really do not like vacuum veneering.
Thanks for your posts though,
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Robby,
Why don't you veneer the panels before assembly -- no matter what method you choose, it's generally a lot more mangeable. At least think about subassemblies.
Michael R
Thanks Mike. A super idea. Lee also suggested that and I had not thought of it.
Thanks again,
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Robby, there are a couple of options that come to mind for this desk. If it's not intended to be a top drawer piece use a bendable plywood like Wacky Wood. Veneer it first, then fix it to the frame that maintains it's shape. If it's intended to be top drawer cooper it from solids and use a frame and panel.Lee
Super idea Lee. I had not thought of preveneering the bender board. I will definetly take that into consideration.
Thanks again,
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Robby,
A guy here of the forum named Rob Millard (rmillard) has a TON of posts regarding Hammer Veneering with Hide Glue. I suggest you do a search for posts by him and you will discover all of his techniques. I just did a Hope Chest in Mahogany and Lacewood and used Hammer Veneering and Hide Glue. It turned out fantastic and it was my very first veneering projects. Read all you can from Rob Millard and then get some scrap pieces and practice. Just from 10 minutes of practice with the Hammer and Hide Glue I was ready to tackle the entire Hope Chest.
Stay away from contact cement. I'd recommend some Hide Glue. I bought the Behlen brand stuff from my local Woodcraft store. I don't have a glue pot, but I went out and bought a $9 crock-pot from Tartget and used that as my double-boiler to melt the hideglue.
Good Luck!
Dark Magneto
I have two main questions. Is hammer veneering possible for radius work? Does the premixed hide glues work as well as the stuff you have to heat up?
My biggest complaints about vacuum veneering is the size of the bag to do this thing. It is just to big. I also have always though vacuum veneering was a pain but that is just me. To each their own.
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Robby,I have never done radius work before so I can't answer that question. I am sure if you posted a question for Rob Millard he would supply you with your answer. Have you seen his work he posts in "The Gallery"? The stuff is just amazing!Cheers!
Dark Magneto
I pretty much agree with Lee.
Hammer veneering smaller panels is pretty easy, but in my limited experience the job gets exponentially harder as the size increases and issues of timing come into play. Add complicated shapes and joints in the veneer and it gets even more demanding. Trying to learn the technique on a job with large curved panels would probably be an invitation to frustration and failure.
I've done jobs up to 14 feet long with a vacuum bag, and it's by far the easier way to go, with amazingly good quality. You have plenty of time to work with UF glue, and even with only 20" of vacuum, you have over 1300 lb per sqare food ot sustained pressure.
I assume you are going to do your veneering before assembly. Curved panels just need a bag large enough to slip them into. Use a flexible cauls taped in place ane use that mesh to "distribute" the vacuum and you're all set. Alternatively, you can use air bags or balloons in a press in lieu of fancy fixtures with a lot of 3 dimensional pieces.
As far as expense goes, you don't have to buy a fancy bag for a one-off job. You can buy the plastic connectors and make your own bag out of clear upholstery vinyl for a lot less money. It's plenty durable for just one job. You don't even need a vacuum pump; one of those venturi pumps will do an adequate job if you are there to watch the vacuum level.
If you are talking about veneering the curved edges of a top, I wouldn't do that on a custom piece. Solid edgebanding would be a lot better over the long run.
The only hammer veneering I do these days is on repair work. Anything new or complicated goes in the bag.
Michael R
Woodwiz
You use UF glue in the vacuum press? Are we talking about marine glue ,also known as plastic resin glue on thin wood veneer?
I have a project consisting of 2 large table tops and 20 doors that I will be using a vacuum press to laminate some beautiful old growth walnut burl veneer to 3/4" mdf. We made a bag last time for a 7' x 8' top so that's not a problem except finding fittings from bag to vacuum pump.
On the last project I was involved with we used titebond 3,not my choice. This time I was thinking of ordering Franklin's special veneer glue but UF? Please fill me in with the details and where to find fittings if you know.
Thanks and best regards,
silver
Basically, the two glues you are talking about are the same. The glue I use for vacuum pressing is a urea resin that has a powder catalist. Easy to use and clean up (before it dries). Great open time. Plastic resin(as in boat working) works too, as so does Titebond 1 or 2. I used to buy from National Casein out of Santa Ana, Calif. But, they have branches nationwide.
Also, why not try using a single sheet of vinyl and clamp it down to the table using 3/4"x1 1/2" plywood strips with foam tape attached to them. Only takes 4 to 5 spring clamps on each edge. Alot easier than trying to stick everything into a bag.
Another thing is to buy a glue applicator that has a neoprene roller and the hopper on top. They are sold through Quality Vak. They aren't cheap, but are worth it
Edited 2/20/2005 12:50 pm ET by migraine
Silver,
I use Unibond 800 from these guys:www.vacupress.com
It is a 2 component glue with about a 3 hour open time. It cures hard and is a good gap filler with a rigid glue line. It is also easy to clean up.
I measure the amount I need for the footage I am going to glue, and apply it with a foam roller. Works great. There are other similar glues on the market, but that is the only one I've used.
The only time I used yellow glue on a veneer project, I had problems with moisture on site causing the veneer to come loose at unfinished edges. Might have been my technique, but I never had that particular problem with UF. Yellow glue also creeps, where hide glue and UF don't. I never tried ironing vener on with yellow glue, but I don't trust yellow glue or contact cement when veneering. I want my work to loook as good in 50 years as it does when new. I occasionally see things that I made 30 or more years ago, and I like to be able to acknowledge them as mine, rather than run away from them.
On the other hand, I prefer yellow glue for assembly because for its shock resistance and the fact that it does creep a little to accomodate seasonal movement (but thats another question entirely.)
To each his own. Those are just my personal experiences and observations.
Michael R
Woodwiz
Thanks for the info and link. Sure appreciate it-have any idea how many bars I'd have to frequent to get such wonderful advice? thousands
silver
have any idea how many bars I'd have to frequent to get such wonderful advice? thousands
Might be more fun - especially if someone else were buying.
M R
Frid's second book covers this in some detail. But, I am not sure about running that tight a radius with bubinga as it is a very difficult wood. Are you using commercial veneers cut at 1/42", or bandsawn veneers? If the former, probaly OK; if the latter, I would suspect you could not get the curve to hold.
Best of luck on what sounds like a good commission.
Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the reply. I believe I see you quite often at SMC? I always appreciate and enjoy your comments. Also this is the same desk that I had asked questions about a week ago. I have changed my mind and have decided to go with sliding dovetails for attaching the top. I am very excited about the project. You would not belive the figured Bubinga I have for the top. It is GORGEOUS.
On the veneer... I am using commercial veneer (Oakwoods BFV veneer) I am just a little leery on how to keep that radius glued tight and it seems hammer veneering is an option. The BFV veneer they manufacture has a melamine backer which may not work with hide glue.
Anymore opinions and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Edited 2/18/2005 7:38 pm ET by Robby
Thanks for the kind comment, and yes, I come here a bit. Not being a hammer veneer guy, take my comments cum grana salus, but I oft use hide glue. It needs to saok into the wood, and it won't soak into the malamine, and so I would be a bit careful there. I suspect it is made for contact cement usage, but that is not an adhesive that I work with. Is there anyway you can use with a solid edge, with a stable core, and then use the face veneer?Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Robby,
I didn't read all the details of everyone's post, but I'd consider ironing on the veneer. We've done it that way on large assemblies in a shop and it works fine. Radii of only a few inches have never been a problem.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Hi Bill,
Good to hear from you. I am not familiar with iron on veneering. Do you have any book references that explain the process? What type of adhesive does one use? The veneer I ordered has a melamine backer which may not work with the iron on technique. Let me know. Thanks for your help.
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Robby,
I'm not familiar with BFV veneer so I checked the Oakwood website. Here's the layer chart:
1st Layer
Your Wood Veneer
2nd Layer
Melamine/Resin Acrylic
3rd Layer
Center Paper
4th Layer
Melamine/Resin Acrylic
5th Layer
Bottom Paper
Oakwood has a good description of the iron-on process at: http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html
In Oakwood's description, they mention ironing 10 mil paper-backed or raw veneers. I've ironed a range of veneer types when working at shops. I always tested a sample piece of veneer to see if it bubbled or seperated and to determine how much ironing would scorch it. If your sample piece has a tendency to curl when glue is applied, wiping the face of the veneer can help keep it flat.
I haven't seen it mentioned in the ironing descriptions I've read, but using a hardwood burnisher to follow the iron helps to seat the veneer. I attached a photo of a new one I'm making (don't ask why I couldn't find the one I've been using -- I'll fall over it the next time I walk into the shop...lol). Size is what fits your hand; I've guys make them barely more than palm size all the way to one requiring two hands. The style in the photo provides a broad rounded face for following an iron and a pointed end for extra pressure or working in corners.
Good luck!
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Thanks for the info Bill. I always appreciate how willing you are to share your experience.
Thanks again,
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Title: Veneering: A Foundation Course
by Michael Burton, Mike Burton
ISBN: 0-8069-2855-7
Publisher: Sterling Publishing
Pub. Date: 01 July, 2000
Format: Paperback
Volumes: 1
List Price(USD): $19.95
Check out this book. He does a Bombe chest with hammer veneering. Bombe chests are compound curves. A good book on basic veneering and he does get into vacuum veneering. His approach is fundamental and uses simple homemade tools like a masonary chisel converted into a veneer hammer and the like. Sounds like what you are looking for.
Thanks Rick I will look into it. Had not heard of that one.
Thanks again,
Robby Phelps RP Custom Woodworks
Warning....Ironing on veneer can work with paper-backed or cross-banded veneer but it will be very problematic with flitch veneer. From my own experience vacuum pressing is worth any time and trouble. I am not set up to do hammer veneer work now but fully intend to learn it before I ever resort to iron-on veneering. The latter technique is marginal at best.Regards,
Jeff
"... I am not set up to do hammer veneer work now but fully intend to learn it before I ever resort to iron-on veneering. The latter technique is marginal at best."
Why is ironing veneer marginal? Please explain your reasoning.
Thanks.
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Edited 2/21/2005 4:12 pm ET by BArnold
First some definitions: Iron on means (to me) spreading pva glue onto the veneer and onto the substrate letting the glue dry then pressing with a hot iron which reactivates the glue and creates a bond. Hammer veneering is somewhat the same but one uses hot melt hide glue. I have had mixed results using the iron-on method using paper backed veneer. I find it troublesome to get the glue thickness just right, let it dry just long enough, and to not overheat. The method is OK but not great. I would not choose to use it on a top drawer piece.Now using this method with flitch veneer is a disaster. As a last resort I have tried it and always have gotton way too much shrinkage when the veneer cools. I've tried bonding the edges first then working toward the opposite edge.....same result. There was a discussion on the Vacu Press forum regarding this with the same consensus. If anyone here can fill me in on a technique that works....super! Until then, there are better ways to do the job.Jeff
Jeff, my experince parallels yours closely. Maybe it's poor technique on my part, but for me there are easier and better ways to do the job, especially since I mostly work with flitch veneer whenever I do any veneering..
Michael R
First some definitions: Iron on means (to me) spreading pva glue onto the veneer and onto the substrate letting the glue dry then pressing with a hot iron which reactivates the glue and creates a bond. ...
Jeff, the definition you stated above is my understanding as well. That is the process I learned in a commercial shop. We also had a hot press and many vacuum bagging systems. There were applications that were better done with an iron or even a heat gun.
I have had mixed results using the iron-on method using paper backed veneer. I find it troublesome to get the glue thickness just right, let it dry just long enough, and to not overheat. The method is OK but not great. I would not choose to use it on a top drawer piece. ...
The cabinet shop in which I worked built furniture for multi-million dollar yachts and very ritzy condos. There were pieces that could not be vacuum bagged because of the shape; i.e., radii too radical, piece too large, etc. Sometimes, it was simply quicker and easier to iron the veneer than to wait for press or bag time. We also cut strips of veneer for edge-banding to match face veneer and ironed it on.
Now using this method with flitch veneer is a disaster. As a last resort I have tried it and always have gotton way too much shrinkage when the veneer cools. I've tried bonding the edges first then working toward the opposite edge.....same result.
I'm glad you brought this up. I've ironed paper-backed veneer successfully, but have never done flitch veneer. I have some personal projects on the board that could lend themselves to ironing flitch veneer. Based on your comment, I'll definitely use my vacuum bag for these items now.
There was a discussion on the Vacu Press forum regarding this with the same consensus. If anyone here can fill me in on a technique that works....super! Until then, there are better ways to do the job. ...
Actually, why am I not surprised that a vacpress forum would recommend against ironing??? :-)
Best Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
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