Replies

1. 
   Rich14 | Nov 22, 2008 02:03am | #1

   Frank,

   The method you are using is the correct way to apply shellac. The other "advice" you read on this forum is just plain wrong. It is crude and, as you say leads to disappointment and discouragement.

   Getting rid of runs, drips, ridges and major irregularities in shellac is not an easy thing to do and is no fun at all.

   Your method is called . . . craftsmanship. That's a good way to work.

   Rich

2. 
   flairwoodworks | Nov 22, 2008 05:03am | #2

   I have found shellac quite a workout to level or remove with tools (rather than chemicals).  You are wise to continue with your methods.

   Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

3. 
   RMillard | Nov 22, 2008 05:34am | #3

   That was some very poor advise indeed. Runs, fat edges and lap marks are to be avoided at all costs, not only because of the difficulty in removing them, but also, with darker shellacs, they can leave behind colored streaks in the finish. Also, the possibility of a rub through, removing these defects, is just too great, and few things are more difficult to successfully repair, than a rub through.

   I brush my shellac, with high quality artist brushes used for watercolors. The shellac is thinned to a water like consistency, and Homestead Finishing Shellac Wet is added to extend the brushing time. In hot weather I keep the shellac in the refrigerator to also extend its working time. The key is to barely touch the bristles to the surface and then flow the shellac on with fairly slow deliberate strokes. I can usually apply 3 coats in fairly rapid succession, before having to wait a couple of hours to apply the final coats. I usually apply a total of 5-6 coats, which sounds like it would make for a thick coating, but they are each so thin that the resulting finish is very "light".

   The rub is done with 400-600 grit paper and mineral sprits as a lubricant, after a 2-4 day cure. Then a nice soft sheen is brought up with 4/0 steel wool saturated with mineral oil and charged with 4F pumice.

   Rob Millard
   http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

    

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 20, 2008 08:22pm | #10

   Rob:I use a similar application method, but a slightly different approach to rubbing and wet sanding (certainly not finding fault with yours -- just commenting). I use a spray bottle of soapy water -- a little spray to lube and away we go. Less noxious fumes. I like to rub out the final with Abralon and soapy water, and then bring up the sheen with 0000 steel wool and wax.DO you think your method would have a materially different end result? If so, I'm all ears (eyes?).Joe

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 20, 2008 11:22pm | #13

   Joe,

    

   I would have thought, that the water would have made the shellac cloudy. I will have to give it a try, because it would save having to clean the oil off the surface, not to mention the smell factor.

   Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com

    

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 21, 2008 01:35am | #14

   So far, so good. It doesn't stay too long for a wet sanding, and there is a new coat of shellac or topcoat going over it. Maybe I've been lucky, but it seems to work.Joe

2. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 22, 2008 09:05pm | #17

   I hope it is OK to butt in here?

   I use a spray bottle of soapy water....

   I would assume that you used distilled water? I always use distilled around any wood. However there hundreds or more types of soap. Hand soap like Ivory or some detergent?

   The following is just something I found about soap and detergents.

   http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsoap.htm

   Serious question...

   Edited 12/22/2008 1:09 pm by WillGeorge

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 22, 2008 09:19pm | #18

   Will:Hate to disappoint you, but I use tap water and dish detergent. The detergent just makes it a better lubricant. No special ratio, either. Just "soapy" to the point where I get bubbles. I apply it out of an ordinary spray bottle.Last night I had to remove some watermarks from my shellac-finished living room floor (a few potted plants had rested there too long after being brought in to avoid a freeze). As you may know, the way to remove white water rings is to repeatedly go over the spots quickly with a DNA moistened drag. If you go slowly, the finish begins to dissolve, but going quickly applies just enough alcohol to bring clarity back to the finish. It struck me that I had found the reason why water can be used as a lube on shellac. Even if you cloud the surface slightly, the next coat of shellac melts in and brings clarity back. Now, mind you, I do not hold this out as a universal truth. There may be shellac applications on which water can't be used. However, I haven't found one yet EXCEPT for French Polish.Joe

1. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 22, 2008 09:46pm | #19

   Hate to disappoint you??

   I am never dissapointed here in Knots... I see it as new thoughts to think about!

   I use distilled water only because I have had tap water stain some expensive wood and I could never get rid of the stain. OK, so I could have sawed it off but I would end up with a really skinni stick.

   As you may know, the way to remove white water rings is to repeatedly go over the spots quickly with a DNA. Damn! I do not want the wood to look like ME! I want it pretty!

   OK just funnin ya a bit...

    

    

   Edited 12/22/2008 1:47 pm by WillGeorge

2. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 22, 2008 09:53pm | #20

   Hmmm. Yes, I see your point-- BUT, cloning furniture might be interesting!J

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 23, 2008 06:23am | #24

   You don't really need enough soap to get bubbles for the water to work as lubricant.  Only a couple of drops of dishwashing soap like Dawn in a pint of water is enough to break the surface tension, and that's enough.  Not so much worry about rinsing. 

4. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 23, 2008 08:42am | #25

   Makes sense. I've been using a couple of good squirts in a quart, but I am not sure why. I'll try the lesser amount.Joe

2. 
   brucet9 | Dec 22, 2008 01:13am | #16

   Thank you, thank you, thank you.I had been struggling with putting on an even coat of shellac with a good Purdy 1" paint brush, then I read your post. I went out and got a pair of artists brushes (1" and a 1/2") today and found it easy to lay on a nice even thin coat with no build-up at the edges.BruceT

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 23, 2008 06:19am | #23

   Bruce,

   I'm glad I could help.

   Once you get the thinning right and have a good brush, shellac is hard to beat, isn't it.

   Rob Millard

   http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

    

1. 
   PCM | Dec 23, 2008 05:34pm | #29

    Rob, Steve, and All-

   I have been reading this post, and another in the recent past about shellac removal, and I really appreciate the knowledge that has been freely given. I have used shellac for years, Zinnser's and Mosers flakes. My problem has been that the final coat never seems to be good enough to be the final coat, and ended up applying poly-if that makes sense. I will be trying the rubout methods described here, as well as buying better brushes.  

   What brand of Denatured Alcohol do you use, does it make a difference? Behlen Bekhol says their product will not cause shellac to flake, is it worth the $$$? Any other products?

   I have been buying DA in 5 gal cans because of $-especially nowadays!

   Thanks to all in advance.

   Pete

1. 
   RMillard | Dec 23, 2008 05:43pm | #30

   Pete,

   I used to use the Behkol, but now I just get a can at Lowe's of whatever brand they have, and I don't see any difference.

   Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com

    

2. 
   PCM | Dec 24, 2008 02:03am | #35

   Amazing!

   Thank you!

   Pete

3. 
   brucet9 | Dec 23, 2008 05:29am | #21

   Can you point me toward some info on how to rub out a shellac finish. I'll be ready for that step tomorrow and I would appreciate any tricks you use to make the process work well.Thanks,
   BruceT

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 23, 2008 08:44am | #26

   Bruce:the FIRST thing about rubbing out is that the shellac must not only be dry but also cured. Give it a week, maybe more. If you go too soon, you'll be terribly disappointed. You can wet sand between coats in a day or maybe less, but NOT the final rubbing out.Somewhere on this site there is a good video series by Peter Gedrys on refinishing an oak table. He deals with rubbing out. It is well worth watching. Peter is a world recognized master finisher, and a hell of a nice guy.Joe

   Edited 12/23/2008 12:46 am ET by Joe Sullivan

1. 
   brucet9 | Dec 23, 2008 08:56am | #27

   Thanks for the tip. I'll look for that video.Can you accelerate the cure by putting the object in a 100° oven? I've done that often with alkyd paints back when I was in the paint industry.BruceT

1. 
   Rich14 | Dec 23, 2008 02:34pm | #28

   bruce,Shellac doesn't cure. It's an evaporative finish as opposed to reactive finishes such as oils and varnishes. Like lacquer, it dries by evaporation of its solvent.Here's how I "finish the finish."Level the surface using 320 grit sandpaper on a firm rubber sanding block or equivalent. Do it gently, using not much more pressure than the weight of your hand and the block. The shellac should sand easily to a fine, dry powder. If it doesn't, it's not dry. Give it another day and try again. The leveling will take down the highest irregularities (mountains) and dust nibs and leave some shiny valleys in between. This leveling step is usually done after the first few coats, in preparation for more finish. At that point, it is not possible to completely level the surface to abrade all the valleys without completely cutting through the finish in spots. Don't try.More shellac is applied and the step is repeated, usually 3 to 4 times. Each time, abrading the mountains results in wider and wider ground-glass like areas and smaller and smaller in-between shiny valleys, until they finally all merge with just very light sanding pressure.At that point, enough shellac has been applied and the final rub-out can be done. The finish is a fine, thin, close to the wood film. More can be applied as desired, but that's a matter of preference up to a few more applications.At the point where the whole surface has been perfectly leveled, and all the mountains and valleys have merged into one, uniform ground glass appearance, the next step is to progress up through finer and finer abrasives, stopping at whatever final appearance is desired. 400 grit and 4-0 steel wool will give a soft, satin glow. That surface can be refined with 600, 800, 1200 grit with or without a lubricant (mineral spirits, naphtha, water - a qt with a drop of dish washer detergent).Finally, for a gloss finish use automotive rubbing compound (red) then polishing compound (white). Those very fine abrasives will leave just a bit of semi-gloss haze. Following with automotive swirl remover (Meguair's Scratch-X or similar) will give a glass-like polish.Rich

   Edited 12/23/2008 6:37 am ET by Rich14

2. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 23, 2008 05:45pm | #31

   Rich:Quite right that it doesn't "cure," as undergoing a chemical reaction. However, people use that term in describing the thorough drying process. Even Zinsser's technical literature says that shellac is not full "cured" for an extended period of time. My point, based on sad experience and not words, is that if someone tries to rub the stuff out in a day or three, they are usually sorry. As you well know but not everyone does, dry to the touch and dry for re-coating is NOT the same as dry for rubbing out. I find that a week is about right -- others might shorten the time. Its up to them.Of course, much thinner films dry faster -- but in time, the mil thickness builds up even when sanded back.Other than that refinement, my process is the same as yours.Agree with Millard that I can't tell the difference between the action of Borg DNA and the fancy stuff, btw.JoeEdited 12/23/2008 9:47 am ET by Joe Sullivan

   Edited 12/23/2008 9:49 am ET by Joe Sullivan

3. 
   Rich14 | Dec 24, 2008 01:20am | #33

   Joe,Shellac doesn't cure. It doesn't matter who uses the term. It's wrong. If it's not yet dry, it's not yet dry. But it doesn't take curing to get it there. Its solvent needs to completely evaporate.Curing is specifically a term for the chemical reactions that take place with oil and oil-based finishes.And if shellac isn't ready for leveling in 48 hours, it's suspicious for "expired." Once it gets too old, it won't properly harden. I have nothing against waiting a week to rub out, but I'd remove any shellac that really needed that long to actually sand well. And I'd replace it with fresh stuff.Rich

4. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 24, 2008 01:33am | #34

   Sigh...OK, Rich. You are right (as I mentioned before). Why don't you take it as a personal mission to set Zinsser straight? As for sanding to level in a shorter time, aren't you just repeating what I said before?MY POINT TO THE POOR OP IS THAT HE SHOULD WAIT MORE THAN A COUPLE OF DAYS FOR FINAL RUBBING OUT. If he doesn't, the shellac may not be dry enough to perform as he expects. That could be a big disappointment as it was for me in the beginning of my dances with shellac (right, I know shellac is a chemical substance and really cannot dance -- just poetic license).FWIW, Zinsser says shellac isn't fully cured (their term, not mine) for about three months. Obviously, we all rub it out much sooner than that. I personally wait about a week or so.Cheers!Joe

5. 
   Rich14 | Dec 24, 2008 03:18am | #36

   "Sigh.."Joe, express your exasperation all you want. Isn't it just a pain when someone insists on correcting "little" inaccuracies.Sorry, I have no agenda to correct Zinser about anything. Just don't give out wrong information here.You clearly distinguished between shellac's need to dry AND a supposed need to cure."shellac must not only be dry but also cured. Give it a week, maybe more. If you go too soon, you'll be terribly disappointed."Then you tried to invoke Zinser's use of the same term. I don't care who started use of the term, it's misleading, because it's wrong. Don't make this harder, especially for beginners. Shellac doesn't cure. That's all. It doesn't cure. Don't repeat an inaccuracy for convenience.Then you gave more dubious advice -"You can wet sand between coats" Shellac isn't wet sanded between coats. It's leveled by dry sanding. Wet sanding is only used in final rubbing with much finer grits than that used between coats. Yes, wet sanding COULD be done between coats. No one would be harmed. But, why? That's a silly, non-productive thing to do.Again, don't make this harder. Shellac is really a very simple material that gives the most marvelous results. But it's hard enough for a lot of people trying to understand what seems like a swirling myriad of steps. At least spare them further misleading information.Rich

   Edited 12/23/2008 7:19 pm ET by Rich14

6. 
   Joe Sullivan | Dec 24, 2008 03:28am | #37

   Rich, perhaps you need a good stiff drink or something. Look into some real eggnog or a Tom and Jerry. Be generous with it.I wet sand between coats, using soapy water. You can do whatever you like. I was distinguishing between merely "dry," and dry enough for rubbing out, and I used the term that the dominant factor in the shellac business uses. You can explain the same thing however you please.Bottom line, the guy should hold off several days before rubbing out the finish. He doesn't need to know about evaporation, curing, or angelic intervention. He just heeds to know he should wait.Really, I think you may be Frenchy's doppelganger. Between the two of you, in opposite ways, it is a miracle that anyone else will ever post on the subject of shellac.Well, I'm off to apply shellac to my latest project.Joe

7. 
   brucet9 | Dec 24, 2008 04:08am | #38

   I know (from 25 years in the paint industry) that shellac does not technically cure, but that is the term that Joe Sullivan, to whom I posted my question, and others used to describe the point when it is ready to rub out. I appreciate your sharing your methods with me, but you did not answer my question about accelerating the hardening time with gentle heat. I'm guessing that 8 hours of 120°F should be about equal to a day at 68°F. Is there a test that one can use to determine that the finish is hard enough, perhaps pressing with a fingernail as we used to do with lacquers? BruceT

8. 
   Rich14 | Dec 24, 2008 05:15am | #39

   Bruce,I haven't spent 25 years in the paint industry. But I've spent much longer than that putting finishes on wood. And the first finish I learned to use was shellac. I've never heard "cured" used to describe a hardened shellac film. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when it was used, maybe I ignored it, or maybe the guys I hung around with knew to distinguish between different types of finish.Whatever. Enough picking of nits.Here's how to tell when a shellac film is hard and ready for finishing (rubbing out). I already mentioned that it should sand easily to a fine,dry powder. The powder actually makes the process easier as it's a dry lubricant, especially if the shellac contains wax. At the point that it's ready, it's a pleasure to sand.Fresh shellac will dry very, very quickly. Especially if it's applied correctly, in thin applications. A 1-1/2 to 2# cut is just right. If the shellac is good, a week is an extremely conservative time to wait. That is, if there is ANY difficulty at that point, the shellac is NOT good.There really should be no need to dry shellac at anything above comfortable to somewhat warm conditions. The warmer the environment, the faster all the solvent will escape the shellac film. That is certain. I suppose 120 degrees will do no actual harm to the shellac. I don't know. Maybe you'll let us know. After all, it's an organic material. Heat will accelerate EVERY thing about it, including deterioration.But here is something for you to consider. Rushing is an absolute recipe for disaster in any kind of finishing schedule. For reasons you can't necessarily predict. Something inevitably goes wrong. You can rationalize all you want that you are doing nothing particularly wrong. But any time I have seen someone try to hurry along a finishing process, the job blew up on them, one way or another. It's probably the mindset they get into when they decide to rush that leads to problems.You don't have to believe me. But I think you will find yourself doing the project over if you rush it. That's just the way it works out. A good finisher will beat a beginner hands down. But that's NOT because he's rushing. If your shellac isn't ready for rubbing in a maximum of 5-7 days under normal drying conditions, something is wrong that extraordinary measures won't fix.Rich

9. 
   brucet9 | Dec 24, 2008 05:29am | #40

   Thanks. I would not rush ordinarily, but the box is a gift to my daughter who will take it to new York next Tuesday.BruceT

10. 
    Joe Sullivan | Dec 24, 2008 07:34am | #41

    Bruce:No idea if 120 degree warmth would help or hurt. I'd be a little spooky about trying, though, because of the chance of warping the wood or something. I don't have any basis for suggesting that possibility at that temperature, but whenever I try something like that things just don't work.Could you wait a few more days and just ship it to her? That would be in the woodworking tradition that I myself try to uphold (projects finished late if at all). I am giving my son a chest that may be finished before summer...and may not...Merry ChristmasJoe

11. 
    brucet9 | Dec 25, 2008 10:27am | #44

    Good idea, thanks.BruceT

4. 
   lostcreek | Jan 21, 2009 06:57pm | #45

   Rob,
   I read your comment about artists brushes for shellac and immediately googled "artists brushes". I got an overwhelming amount of options. Could you please recommend a few sizes and descriptions? Sable, horsehair, or other type of bristle, maybe even brand? Thanks so much,
   lostcreek

1. 
   RMillard | Jan 21, 2009 08:05pm | #46

   I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I have had excellent results with bristles made from Golden Taklon. I have used Lowe Cornell, Grumbacker and Windsor & Newton, but all have preformed equally well.

   Rob Millardhttp://www.americanfederalperiod.com

    

    

4. 
   northhouguy | Nov 22, 2008 07:56am | #4

   fg,

   I think you got some really bad advice.  I'm no expert, but my method for shellacing is as follows:

   Get a clean, lint free rag, (I only use cotton, part of an old sheet or tee shirt works well.)  I cut a 6-8 inch square and fold it into a small square.  Then I take another 8-10 inch square and fold the small square up in it to make a pad.  I use a rubber band to secure the "tail" and hold the pad together.  It should be fairly hard, about as much give as when you press your finger into your hand at the base of your thumb.  Make sure there are no creases or wrinkles in the wiping surface of the pad.

   I wipe on a two pound cut.  You can tell when to stop because the pad will drag. Don't make the pad too wet.  Some people put a few drops of mineral oil on the pad to keep it from dragging. 

   Many thin coats are preferable to "lumping it on."  Remember, each coat of shellac disolves the previous one so LIGHTLY, and I do mean LIGHTLY, sand between coats if you want but I find it unnecessary mostly. 

   I have my favorite picture of My Darling in a fumed white oak frame finished with garnett shellac on a quilted maple table top finished with blonde shellac that is held up by cherry legs finished with garnett shellac.  I think it's nice and the tabletop looks like glass.

   Just be patient, practice some and don't give up.   

1. 
   brucet9 | Dec 20, 2008 09:57pm | #11

   What is garnet shellac?I have used clear (same as blonde?) and orange (now called amber), but I've never seen garnet. Is that a red tint?BruceT

   Edited 12/20/2008 1:58 pm by brucet9

1. 
   troys | Dec 20, 2008 10:59pm | #12

   Garnet shellac is available in flake form Behlen makes it. The Japan woodworker sometimes has it as well as Woodworkers supply. It is darker than orange shellac. Looks great on MahoganyTroy

2. 
   northhouguy | Dec 21, 2008 06:31pm | #15

   Bruce,

   Garnet shellac is a dark shellac.  I can't tell you the color due to my life long affliction of "abnormal color perception."  (My grandpap had the same thing.  They said he was color blind... ;^)  )

   Anyway, I think it's real nice on fumed oak or over boiled linseed oil on cherry.

   There's a post the tells where it can be bought.  Perhaps they have a picture, or search Google.

   Have a great day, and remember:  Woodworkers don't make mistakes.  They make design revisions...

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 25, 2008 07:30am | #42

   Blonde is NOT the same as white.  Blonde is extensively filtered to remove the natural dye from the shellac, but it still remains orange shellac, just light colored.  White shellac is lighter than blonde shellac and is actually bleached--using a chlorine bleach, after which the bleached shellac is precipitated from the solution.  But this solid shellac must be made into liquid shellac almost immediately or it would deteriorate very quickly.  The bleaching product leaves shellac that is less durable than unbleached shellac, particularly as far as water resistanance is concerned. 

   For a good depiction of shellac colors, subject to the usual caveate about the accuracy of computer screens, Homestead Finishing has some excellent pictures. 

   http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac3.htm

   Edited 12/25/2008 7:26 am ET by SteveSchoene

1. 
   brucet9 | Dec 25, 2008 10:26am | #43

   Thanks for the info and the linkMerry ChristmasBruceT

5. 
   Joe Sullivan | Nov 22, 2008 08:25am | #5

   There have from time to time been on this forum certain very vocal advocates of the flood-on process you describe. However, it doesn't work for most of us. Multiple thin coats, leveled as you go is a method that works beautifully, as you have discovered. Stick with it.

   Joe

6. 
   hammer1 | Nov 22, 2008 05:53pm | #6

   Sounds like you took advice from Frenchy. You got what you paid for. There are no requirements to participate on these forums. Anyone can give advice, right or wrong. The reader has to do further investigation. Caveat emptor.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

7. 
   ohiobob | Dec 20, 2008 03:34am | #7

   I found the cloth method works best for me. I tried the slop on method too with

    

   little success.  I just finished this mirror frame with 9 coats of shellac. I very lightly

    

   sanded with 320 and steel wool every third coat. The final coat was still too glossy

    

   for me so i sprayed on two coats of satin poly with good results. A nice warm finish.

    

    

   
8. 
   pzaxtl | Dec 20, 2008 09:51am | #8

   Ahh, the "Frenchy Method"!  Unfortunately, it is a pee poor way of applying any finish.  The method you have arrived at it is the conventional method of applying a film finish and uniformly leads to superior results -- unlike the "other" method frequently touted.

    

   Speaking of the devil, has anybody heard from ole Frenchy lately?  Has he found an alternate forum to disseminate his shellacing methods?  Perhaps he's to busy building something with that .20 bd/ft walnut he has

9. 
   terrylee86 | Dec 20, 2008 05:37pm | #9

   I spray shellac, when I use it, but I spray all my finishes  so if I were you I would take the advice of a expert in applying shellac with a brush.  The expert that has responded to this question is Rob Millard.  If you have ever seen any of his work you would agree with me.  Any time he chimes in on this forum I would listen to his advice.  You have already discovered for yourself that experience is the best teacher.  We use this forum to help accelerate the learning curve, but that does not always work.

10. 
    hammerelbow1 | Dec 23, 2008 05:54am | #22

    I was lookin at a back issue of FW today that had an artical in it on shellac finnishing.Chack out issue #186 Oct. 2006. I've been reading up on shellac because my son is buying a 100 year old house with oak floors and they need refinnishing.

    Wayne

1. 
   RalphBarker | Dec 23, 2008 07:37pm | #32

   In 1973, I bought a house that had heavy oak flooring in two bedrooms. Nice wood, but it was in terrible shape. Starting in the "master" bedroom, I sanded it down to bare wood with a 4x24 belt sander (wasn't smart enough to rent a floor sander), stained it with a combo of rosewood and teak stains, and put down three coats of brushed-on poly, wet sanding with 600 grit between coats. Took me a couple of months, and my knees were sore for a year.Never got to the second bedroom (installed wall-to-wall carpet for the sale), but the refinished floor still looked like new when I sold the place a few years ago. Good luck to your son (and you) with the new, old house.