I recently bought a set of Two Cherries chisels that are coated with a type of clear lacquer. I was told that acetone would remove it but no luck. Does anyone have a suggestion. Please let me know.
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Replies
Bob,
I too have suffered their lacquer.
Like all factory-produced tools, the Two Cherries chisels benefit from having their backs flattened (1/8 inch next to the edge for benchchisels, as per the David Charlsworth ruler method; 3 ins for a mortise chisel, as recommended by Graham Blackburn, Ian Kirkby and other handtool "gurus", to helpcut themortise ends flat and square.).
This, along with the honing of the bevel and/or microbevel, to meet your needs of the chisel, automatically removes the laquer from the important parts.
The chisels are also polished under all that lacquer. Adam Cherubini made a point when he noted that this polishing dubs over (ie rounds slightly) the chisel edges, including the corners. When you back-flatten and hone, it is as well to make sure you remove this (slight) dubbing and the (slightly) rounded corners.
As to removing the lacquer from the rest of the chisels - I don't bother. But I suspect you will have to grind it off with a coarse diamond stone, fine sandpaper or similar, if you want a lacquer-free chisel.
I have found the Two Cherries good in terms of their fundamental qualities and edge keeping abilities; but why do they put on that lacquer and also a nasty varnish on the handles? It's a puzzle.
Lataxe
Just to be clear: the "ruler trick" in Charlesworth's video is NOT for chisels, only plane blades. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any shortcuts to flattening and polishing chisel backs. Just lots and lots of elbow grease.
HH,
I was wondering if anyone would notice. :-)
It's true that the flattening of chisel backs is meant to produce a flat surface for the part of the back that will be used to help register or "self jig" the chisel (as Ray Pine describes it) on a workpiece. In theory this means that the ruler trick is not right as it truly flattens only the 1/8 - 1/4 inch up to the cutting edge.
I have only flattened half a dozen chisels to date (all of which were only slightly bumpy, not bent) and used the ruler method to speed the process. The chisels now have mirror polished areas on their ends and also where any bumps were.
(I did flatten the whole back of one mortise chisel, as I read that a flat back is critical to these, when chopping the ends of a mortise, particularly a deep one).
This must mean that the ruler trick-flattened chiels are still not dead flat across the whole of their back but I am going to argue that they are flat enough. In using them, I find they will pare nicely, using the back to "self-jig" a flat cut.
I suspect that this is because there are enough flat spots (and no bend) to make the back "virtually flat" in use; and that the ever-so-slight back bevel at the tip is insignificant to the self-jigging action.
Perhaps the chisels wil not work to pare paper-thin cuts (because of the back bevel); but my paring cuts are not of the plane-shaving variety (yet).
I haven't worked out the angle of the "back bevel" made by using the ruler trick - but I keep the ruler as far from the tip (near to the handle) as possible when flattening the back; and use a very thin steel ruler.
I might be kidding myself, but this approach (the ruler trick) does seem to cut down the flattening work whilst providing a back "flat" enough to use as such. Maybe I will be caught out if and when I need to make a super-thin "self-jigged) paring? On the other hand, a lot of opinion and experience in Knots says even a bent chisel is really OK if you can learn to use it skillfully.
Lataxe
That's fine, I just want others to be aware that Charlesworth does not recommend the ruler trick for chisels.
Let's review. You pay hard-earned money for the (Two Cherries) product; undo what the maker did to screw them up (polish /dub over edges); strip them of unwelcome finish; and refinish them is a several-step process.
Sounds more like justification for a mistaken purchase than good advice. Since there are several good sources for quality chisels that can be used virtually out of the box, the poster might want to read some prior threads before he puts too much effort into a lost cause.
Yeah, now that you mention it, it sounds like an awful lot of chisel fettling to get to a usable chisel. I'd never have the patience. I'd rather work wood. I just received a LN chisels that was beautiful and ready right out of the box. ;-)
Handrubbed,I believe you can order the unpolished set from some suppliers.Cheers,eddieedit:A quick google search on -- two cherries chisel unpolished --- gives these linkshttp://www.google.com.au/search?q=two+cherries+chisel+unpolished&start=0
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Cherries-Special-Boxed-Chisel/dp/B0006PUCKM
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=EE-5009050
Edited 12/21/2006 9:04 pm by eddiefromAustralia
So what make of chisels would you suggest for general wood working?
Doug Meyer
H,
True, true. But the lacquer and varnish removal is not critical to the use of the tool; and most tools require a bit of honing "out of the box". I do think Hirsch are foolish for putting shinyness before sharpness in their marketing strategy, though.
The Two Cherries do perform well in terms of taking and holding an edge. I quite like the shape of their handles. Finish aside, they are well made of proper materials.
However, I admit to having my eye on those Blue Spruce jobs now, which I have just "discovered". :-) But have you seen their price?!
Lataxe
Edited 12/22/2006 9:32 am ET by Lataxe
However, I admit to having my eye on those Blue Spruce jobs now, which I have just "discovered". :-) But have you seen their price?!
Yeah, but depending on what you use them for, one only "needs" a couple sizes.
Here's a 1/4" I use for squaring holes on saw handles and for cleaning out DTs...
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/bspruce_0002.jpghttp://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/bspruce_0003.jpg
Take and hold a wonderful edge. They are just not made for heavy whacking. But a well balanced and wonderfully made chisel they are. I'll purchase a few more based upon this one.
Take care, Mike
Speaking of language, I do not recognize the meaning of the word "need" when it comes to woodworking tools. I would appreciate a definition so that I can answer SWMBO when she asks about the daily visit from my man in brown.
Edited 12/22/2006 6:19 pm ET by dherzig
Well, seeing how my wife uses fine vintage and new tools herself, my definition would only fit my circumstance--this applies to wood as well. Her stash of things like Pink Ivory et al exceeds my own...
But, if pressed, my definition would be something along the lines of...Need: justification for use past, present or future...
Take care, Mikeyour gentle tool pusher
One thing I gleaned from my experience of living in the US for ten years was that the words 'need' and 'want', along with the phrases, 'I've just gotta have,' and, 'it's to die for', are all interchangeable in American english and indicate a desperate requirement to fill an essential gap. Not filling that perceived gap would mean that meaningful life as we know it on earth would simply collapse.
Perhaps you can use that as a basis for developing a strategy? Or perhaps not, seeing as how you indicate you are married, which means that her needs, wants, and to die for's are, naturally, much more important than yours are ever likely to be in a million years, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
So true that many folks in the US at least use "need" when what they really mean is "want". If you reduce things to the rational, extreme bare essentials real needs are limited to water, food, shelter and (in most climates) clothing. But our minds are not always entirely rational. But it also depends on what type of culture/society one exists in.
Well, in The Century of The Self, it is easy to see that there is no difference between "need" and "want". What the Super-Individual wants, in order to fulfil his or her lifestyle "dream" is, by definition, essential. Not being "fulfilled" is as bad as starving, being homeless or in some other parlous condition. The"mental health" (ie Total Fulfilment of The Dream) of Super-Individuals is more important even than their physical well-being. (And certainly more important than the welfare of anyone else).
Just ask any modern teenager or (I am told) person from LA. :-)
Lataxe, who long ago merged personas with his ladywife, cats, a now-dead dog and various other entities, so is probably a 19th century creature.
Those are the basic needs for survival but it would be a pretty bleak life if that's all everyone had. Sadly, that's more than what millions of people have.While I agree with you that "people in the US at least use need...." and have taken materialism to new levels, it hardly started here. Greed is as old as mankind. Would it be better for some of the less materialistic to finish their sentence by specifying why they need something? If someone says they need a wrench because that's the only way they'll be able to loosen a pipe or whatever, it's true but I doubt they'll get a lot of satisfaction just from owning it. I think people should use words for their real meaning but that's all part of colloquialisms and someday, it won't be used in the same way. Want is another word that can be substituted for need if used in its real meaning but that would mean people need to look it up. I don't think using want in a way that reduces the degree of need is appropriate since truly wanting is just as basic as truly needing. People who have a lot of "things" usually don't "need" much, other than what would make them better people, IMO.Maybe it's just that so many think they need things, but having them is only a way to be like everyone else."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."Edited 12/23/2006 9:24 am by highfigh
Edited 12/23/2006 9:29 am by highfigh
Perhaps you can use that as a basis for developing a strategy? Or perhaps not, seeing as how you indicate you are married, which means that her needs, wants, and to die for's are, naturally, much more important than yours are ever likely to be in a million years, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.
Richard
Perhaps if he trained his wife better from day one, he wouldn't have to worry about it at all. I teach classes on the subject if anyone is interested. :-)
HO HO HO!
Jeff
I have a set of Two Cherries chisels, and they are no more work than other good chisels, other than taking a little more time to sharpen due to their hardness. It is a fact that some of the edges get rounded slightly by their polishing method, but the only edge that matters is the cutting edge. I don't know about you, but I tune every single tool that I buy to know that it's done and ready to work. Do it once correctly and the tool is ready to produce $$$, or good feelings if you're a hobbyist. Trust the manufacturer and you may be sorry.
Lie Nielsen makes great planes and tools. I have over 20. However, I've had to flatten 3 of them right out of the box. Whoopidy doo! 1 hour of work, and I still have an excellent tool.
To all who want the Two Cherries chisels: Buy them, flatten the backs, and sharpen the bevels. They stay sharp longer than most, and are good quality chisels. I've had mine for many years now, and am very happy with them.
Jeff
Edited 12/23/2006 8:01 pm ET by JeffHeath
Did you try lacquer thinner? I used this to remove the coating on my japanese chisels.
Good luck
Troy
I use a product called "Lacquer Thinner." Takes all of about 5 seconds if put into an olive jar (or other long container - sometimes I use a tennis ball can) and dunking the chisel into the liquid. I remove it from both the metal part and from the wooden handle. Have done it for the bench chisels, the carving tools and the mortise chisels. I refinish the handles with BLO and wax. Good luck, Ed
Added:
Here's a photo of six of them with that treatment. I have a handful more in my downstairs shop.
They are my favorite bench chisels but I gotta tell you, I'm becoming quite fond of my sandviks that I have put new handles on, too. And the Bergs,...well that's the chisel they use in heaven. I LIKE chisels! Its almost as bad as my saw problem.
Ed,
Now why can't they send them out the factory like that?
I will be seeking that lacquer removal gloop you mention; but Gawd knows what they call it in Britain. Possibly the European Union has made it illegal, anyway, because it knocks out budgies.
Lataxe
Excuse me but uh, what is a Budgie?
England and the USA two countries separated by a common language! :)
Doug Meyer
I believe it's a small bird.
budgie is the kind of bird that can't be a girl.
bird can either be a girl or a regular bird.
and they say that 'merican english is fowled up,...
It's an Australian contraction of a long noun, Doug.Google: BudgerigarCheers,eddie
Doug,
...and cruel men test the nastiness of fuming stuff like lacquer thinner by making the budgie have some. When it gives a small, pathetic squawk and falls off its perch, the cruel men laugh at its antics but put the thinner to one side with a suspicious glance, for the nonce.
Later they may use it to rid themselves of a pesky neighbour; or even a wife who has turned out to be other than she seemed when wed! Then CSI come and the cruel men get their comuppance. (I have seen it on your television programmes).
Lataxe, friend to all creatures, even my evil cats, who dispatch budgies in a different fashion.
You know, I maintain that birds use something very similar to lacquer thinner, Lataxe. Only, they call it by the name of: "fingernail polish remover."
I reckon you could use some of that stuff to get the extra lacquer off your chisels without having to wear a full chemical warfare anti-exposure suit. Good luck, Ed
Budgie type 1:
View Image
http://www.parrotsociety.org.au/articles/art_043.htm
Budgie Type 2: (kylie minogue is known in Aus a the budgie)
View Image
Dave
Thanks Patto,But, Doug, whatever you do, don't google search for "budgie smugglers"Cheers,eddie
I was once on an internet game that had two peaple from the US (Me up north and a Texan) and we had one guy from Austrailia, one from New Zealand and one from England (london) and one from someplace in i think scotland. And after a while when non of us could understand the others i asked where we all were located and that is when i found out why we did not speak the same language even though we all spoke "English". It was really funny because the guy from Texas was in some ways the hardest for me to understand!
Got to love the language don't you?
Doug Meyer
Westland Mi, USA (Outside of Detroit for those of you from other places)
Heck. Us folks in Waterford, MI cant understand those Westland, MI dialects either.:-)
If you build it he will come.
Yeah but i am really from Novi so i dont have a westland accent, Then again i am having to move back north to South Lyon because they think i speak funny down in Westland :)
(yes for those of you not from the area, Westland is south, South Lyon is north and thier is no Lyon or North lyon, and No it does not make sence to me either)
Doug Meyer
Westland MI (for now)
Howdy neighbor. I'm in Milford.
a budgie is a parakeet!!!
So if all a Budgie is is a parakeet then my I as why in the world they are called Budgie? Like I said the invented the language but I don't think they speak the same one anymore :)
Doug Meyer
It's not a parakeet, spitfire. See the photos above.Doug,All chisels are fine - depends upon the pricing point and performance you want.I use Bergs that I picked up over the years.
Japanese chisels work fine.
Blue Chip (marples) work fine
The Two cherries are a better pick of the current crop.All depends how much time you want to spend sharpening.Cheers,eddie
Budgie was also a heavy metal band from England in the late '70s and early '80s.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Ed,
Are those Two cherries chisels in your photo? Original handles?
And, what are "berg" chisels?
Alan - planesaw
And, what are "berg" chisels?
Ed, DON'T TELL HIM!!!!!!! He'll only want to buy them then! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
If I were playing at your level, I might. But I have more chisels now than I have skill. I just like being aware of the good stuff in case I run across something at a "steal" of a price.
Alan - planesaw
Alan, Yes they are Two Cherries chisels, with the original handles stripped of that awful lacquer coating and refinished with linseed oil and wax.
berg: E. A. Berg, often with the logo "Eskiltuna" - chisels made by a swedish toolmaker from the last century, legendary for their edge holding ability, fine balance, and overall good quality. Often found for astronomical prices in sets or in pristine condition on ebay. Not the same E. A. Berg who licensed the "Sun-Maid" logo for the California raisin industry, if you use google. Have a good day, Ed
Nice rack, Ed. Do you ever wish they were not metric?
Nice rack, Ed. Do you ever wish they were not metric?
Hi Jim,
Nah, I don't think it really matters that much to tell the truth. Just find a chisel that's almost as big as whatever you're trying to chop or pare and go back and forth between the corners. Maybe I'm not smart enough to know the difference,...BTW, I have a TC 3mm chisel that's not pictured - it has been quite useful.
Here's a photo of one of those resin-handled Sandviks from the 1980s that I put a walnut handle on with a brass ferrule made from a plumbing pipe. The walnut was air-dried for about 40 years (I'm not kidding but its a long story) so it was pretty stable. I have been beating the heck out of it with a mallet with no ill effects. I use this chisel for making the stems for Trajan Roman style incised letter carving when I'm using 1 1/4 inches for the stems. THe chisel actually clocks in at 32 mm, I think, which makes it a fraction wider than 1 1/4 inches. I don't know where the extra fraction goes to when I'm letter carving but it "all comes out in the wash."
Have a good day down there in citrus-growing country! Ed
Lataxe is right.
Don't worry about it. When you hone the bevel and flatten/polish the backs it will be removed from the part that matters, namely, the cutting edge. If your honing method won't remove lacquer then there is no hope that it will remove enough steel to actually achieve a honed edge.
Leave the rest of the lacquer that the honing does not remove. It will prevent rust on those parts of the chisel where it remains.
Edited 12/18/2006 12:39 pm ET by CStanford
Please, if you are using lacquer thinner, WEAR A RESPIRATOR. I mean a good, fresh cartridge stlye mask- Or work OUTSIDE.
Lacquer thinner is one of the all time worst chemicals on the planet... it should come with a health label that reads "not fit for any living thing"
With that in mind, go for it... those photos of the refinished chisels were fantastic.
Your right I should have mentioned that. I always use the stuff outside.Thanks for pointing that out.Troy
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