This week I had one of those “almost” moments that can scare the
out of you. Couple of weeks back Dusty asked about close calls and I thought, hey, I haven’t had one in a while. Ha! The devil is always listening.
I’m ripping oak strips with the blade at a slight angle, to get moldings of a trapezoidal cross-section. Splitter and guard are in place (I lifted the guard for the photo), and I’m well aware of the possible kick back if the blade catches one of those buggers as they are freed. (see photo 1) Sure enough, the saw catches one and sends it flying backwards with enough force to punch a nice trapezoidal hole in a metal cabinet that’s 20′ away. (see photo 2). I knew I was OK, but I had this sinking feeling as I turned around that I might have just skewered one of the workers who was walking by. Luckily, not this time.
An 8′ length of oak makes a nice javelin. I kinda doubt that the Olympic committee will add tablesaw athletics any time soon, so I’m posting this to Knots instead.
David Ring
Replies
Mr Ring,
You mention that you was well-aware it could happen (presumably because of the right tilt towards the fence, which says "PINCH AND GRAB" very loudly. Why did you not organise a hold-down and also raise the blade? Why not cut using a sliding table so the fence is not used and there can be no pinching?
As you say, I coulda been standing 19 feet away and had your javelin in my soft parts!
Lataxe, who does daft things hisself but not on purpose.
Like many others I am also blessed with 20/20 hindsight. I of course used the sliding table which carries the left portion of the board. But to get repeatedly identical cuts I needed to run the right edge against the fence. An efficient hold down might have helped...maybe. Truth was I was cutting about 50 of these, and by number 30 or so I was getting comfy that nothing was going to upset my day.
regards,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
ring,
I was getting comfy that nothing was going to upset my day.
I know it's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback but that's when to stop, take a break, and double check your technique.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I put one of those type holes in my $4k overhead door about 2mos ago. It was my mistake for forgetting to put the riving knife back on and having a feather board a little too close to the blade. I am about to start on about 1000ft of trim and am dreading the narrow boards.
Brad
I'm sure I'm going to get beat up for this but-
Being a carpenter and being around carpenters for decades now, I
see people day in and day out working with table saws with no guards
let alone riving knives.
These guy's are on the job site in unpredictable conditions, using
what would be considered inferior equipment by furniture makers standards.
The wood is far lower grade then most people here would use. So how do these guys ( myself included) manage to stay safe?
Some dumb luck I'm sure, but part of it I think is doing it everyday.
There is a certain familiarity and "body knowledge" that you acquire. Hard to put in words, but the fact that some of these guy's can't hang
a door straight yet can keep there finger's for thirty years speaks of
a simple safe way of approaching a saw.
"I am about to start on about 1000ft of trim and am dreading the narrow boards." If you were to make a short fence or half fence (which ends before middle of the saw blade), would it not make the operation much, much safer? See Richard's article here. Mimics the stock fence:
View Imageforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
In my case it should not be too bad. Between the riving knife and the power feeder I am pretty safe, but it still makes me nervous after loosing one recently.
Thanks for the info.
Brad
David,"I of course used the sliding table which carries the left portion of the board. But to get repeatedly identical cuts I needed to run the right edge against the fence."Yes, you use the sliding table to carry the left portion of the board.And, yes, to get repeatedly identical cuts you bring the right side of the work to the fence which acts as a material stop, establishing the thickness of the cut.But, NO, you do NOT set the fence in its longitudinal travel so that its rear end is any closer to the blade position than just short of the front teeth. Do NOT set the fence to use as a guide along which to move the wood. Clamp the wood to the slider once it's been positioned by the "short" fence, aka STOP.Why in the world turn a sliding table saw, the safest kind of table saw for straight line cutting into an ordinary "North American style" rip saw? And create TS javelins?Rich
Edited 4/18/2008 9:14 pm ET by Rich14
Rich, Henley, et al -All of you are quite correct in your comments. I wasn't expecting praise for this thread...I posted it to confess:- that although I've "lived" in workshops for almost 60 years now
- although I've had this particular TS for 10 years and use it practically every day
- although I long ago acquired the "body language" appropriate to each machine
- although I know very well to shorten the fence to a safe positionStill stuff can happen that makes you wonder...There's a serious side to this, which I skirted by joking about the javelin of course. Why was I not paying attention to what I was doing? It happens all the time to all of us - we go about our daily routine without actually being present to what we're doing. Sitting in front of the computer, the consequences aren't very dire. But in the woodshop you ocassionally, just occasionally, have to pay dearly for dreaming. It happens to everyone. Especially to those of us who think they're immune.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David,Stay safe.It's impossible to communicate properly with the words we write here. There's no inflection of voice or opportunity to use gestures or body language.What I wrote, i KNEW that you knew. And I was being half-sarcastic. We all have done things which, in retrospect we looked back in horror, because we knew that we knew better in the first place.I won't even begin to tell you about the stupid way I almost broke my right arm with a screwdriver and spinning band saw with the covers off.Rich
Rich,
HUGE DITTO on what you said.
In my case ofetn times it's a feeling of complacency that gets me in trouble. I think to myself, I know how to do this. I start ripping boards without even thinking about it; then start doing really dumb things.
Fortunately I've been able to catch it in time but.................
Great discussion David: These eye openers are good for all folks.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"We all have done things which, in retrospect, we look back in horror, because we knew that we knew better in the first place."
Not me, I never make those mistakes. I don't have that problem. My problem is that I lie quite a bit! Actually, your kind of explanation to Mr. Ring may not be so obvious to the unexperienced like me. This is one of the reasons I look at this forum - to find out the right way to do things. It would be better to work with an experienced woodworker who could show you how to do things before a bad thing happens. That is an impossibility for some of and to read about others accidents is next best. There are so many things that we can learn with trial and error with no bad consequences except frustration. Unfortunately woodworking is not one of them and the consequences can be long lasting. Best to learn what we can before we blindly blunder into it.
"Best to learn what we can before we blindly blunder into it."Pretty good advice for most things, I would say.Here's some more.Never continue to work when you're tired.Pay attention when that little voice, way in the back of your mind, barely audible, but real, says that the thing you are about to do is dangerous, stupid or both. Stop. Take a break. And figure out a better way. The little voice is ALWAYS right.If you find yourself getting mesmerized by a repetitious job, especially when you're feeding work through a machine, STOP! Turn the thing off.And after an accident has happened in a micro-second, and it will, and I hope it is only minor and simply leaves you with your heart racing, and your palms and armpits wet and chills going down your neck, thank God and tell yourself that you really will heed the above, next time, even more than you had originally promised yourself.Rich
To all,
There are any number of ways to safely rip narrow strips, as Rich and Lataxe have admirably shown. The saw itself will mostly determine what is the best method.
All I needed to do to prevent the "javelin shot" was to pull back the fence so that it ends right before the blade begins. This adjustment takes about 3 seconds. I didn't do it because I was complacent, and not really paying attention.
Luckily, all that's left of this mishap is a hole in a metal cabinet. It made me think again about the way I work, and if it provokes some of you to do the same then it has served some positive purpose.
I don't kid myself that in a commercial shop there will not be accidents from time to time. We have safety guards and shop rules...but we also have insurance policies. During 40 years work as a pro I've had 2 real accidents, the kind that take months to (never quite) recover from. I'm not proud of that record, but it's the truth and I don't hide it.
regards to all of you, David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Mr R,
Thank you for the lesson, which is partly about safe TS set ups but also, as you mention, about the attitudes of the woodworker. Even I, a normally infallible and terribly wise person (yes I am, I've got a certificate from The University of The Moon that syas so!) can make mistakes. :-)
You mention: "Truth was I was cutting about 50 of these, and by number 30 or so I was getting comfy that nothing was going to upset my day".
This is a common human condition (except in me of course): the turkey syndrome (or the tailgater's fallacy)......
The free range turkey on Nobby's farm spends a happy 2 years being fed, allowed to roam at will in the paddocks and spend time with various Miss Turkeys. He naturally makes the assumption that as this has happened every day for 700-odd days in a row, as long as he can remember, tomorrow too will be another day in Turkey heaven. But today is Christmas Eve and his breast is plump from al that delicious corn....
The tailgater uses this argument to hisself as he tools down the freeway 1 yard from your back bumper at 70mph: "I haven't had a crash yet doing this on the previous 249 occassions therefore it cannot happen". Then that little bunny runs into the road and because you are a considerate bunny-lover you stomp on your brake pedal.....
Lataxe, eyeing his Moon Diploma suspiciously.
David,
Many years ago, the shop where I was working needed a large amount of 6/4 Doug Fir milled up for a project. The shop's mill room was set up with a 30' RAS table along one wall. The shop bathroom was located at the end of that same wall. Part of the milling process was running stock thru the RAS to get a somewhat straight edge, leaving a long, thin, cutoff. After the good part of a day, we were almost at the end of our task, when a cutoff strip got accidently pushed under the RAS blade, and instantly penetrated the bathroom door at the far end of the room like a giant spear at high speed. Naturally, we were freaked out by this and ended the work day, breaking out a few beers, and intentially running a bunch of strips into the poor door. < G >
The following morning, as I was just getting to work, I noticed someone was using the bathroom. I flipped on the RAS and laughed as the poor fellow came out of the bathroom trying to pull his pants up and screaming obscenities.
On a serious note, I am glad that no one was injured in your mishap, and that you were kind enought to share it with us.
Best!
-Jerry
Don't feel too bad. My brother-in-law knows a guy that had one go into the screen of his new 36" TV in the basement family room.
David,
I had my tablesaw's kickback tendencies figured out and used them to my advantage a while back I guess that my fence was ever-so-slightly toed in at the time. I was cutting a whole bunch of 3/4" stickers. I set my fence to 3/4" and pushed my 3/4" plywood stock through (about 12" wide by 3' long, with the 12" side against the fence. I used the miter gauge to feed the stock past the blade and after the blade had separated the sticker from the stock, it would slowly and dramatically shoot the sticker about 1-2' forwards off the table. I even had a box on the floor to collect them!
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Having that offcut trapped between the fence and the angled blade seems guaranteed to create launch conditions. While looking for pictures of a short fence, I came across the following diagram of a low-profile short fence being used for a similar situation. What are your thoughts on it making the operation significantly safer?
View Image
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/19/2008 12:10 pm by forestgirl
Put the fence on the other side of the blade."There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
I posted the picture of that low-profile arrangement to ask if it might have helped the OP in his situation, taking his word that he needed to have the fence on the "wrong" side of the stock.
I've not seen the low-profile fence suggested for such a situation, until I saw that drawing, so am curious as to how effective people think it might be.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
I often cut slim sections as you describe and I do use the short fence. In fact, I use the short fence all the time as it's inherently safer than a full front-to-back fence, which can easily turn into a shoves-work-into-back-of-blade tool. But I also use hold downs on top of the work as well as a feather board pressing the whole workpiece agin' the fence just in front of the blade. Naturally there is also a slim push stick; and the blade-following riving knife to keep things safe.
All this means that there is little chance of kickback but also little or no chance of the cut-off piece flying backwards when it separates from the workpiece. The hold downs prevent anything going backwards.
All this hold down and featherboard does make feeding the last bits difficult (when the work piece itself is also slim). Sometimes I can't feed it fast enough with the push stick through the gubbins and I get a burn mark.
If you have a sliding table it's better to use that, with the fence used temporarily to set the width of the "offcut" (i.e. the piece you want) on the opposite side of the blade from the sliding table. You use the fence to set the offcut width, lock the sliding table arm length-setter then move the fence out of the way. It takes a bit longer to keep pulling the fence in and out whilst shifting the sliding table length-setter to it's new setting for each cut. But it's very safe.
I'll post you a photo or two of both arrangements in a bit.
Lataxe
PS Of course what I'd really like is one o' them 3 wheel motorised feeder thangs as well. :-)
fg,Yes, the "low-profile" fence is effective for this situation. It's surprising how little such an arrangement is used in North America. This capability is standard on most fences sold in Europe, Australia, New Zealand. It's also part of the Unifence, but seldom used. Why?On my Hammer machine, for instance, it's simply referred to as the "low" fence position. It's not special. It's simply there to be used as appropriate to the task.Rich
"It's also part of the Unifence, but seldom used." Well, I will certainly make use of it, Rich, if I can get back into the shop with my "new" saw. I think I'm gonna like the Unifence! Thanks for the input.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You know I just bite the bullet and run all the stock
through and then re set the fence. I'd rather have the fence on the safe side of the blade,
and waste some time then even worry about it.
Besides, the time wasted ought to be balanced against Danger pay
the other way.
I agree, but repeating:
I posted the picture of that low-profile arrangement to ask if it might have helped the OP in his situation, taking his word that he needed to have the fence on the "wrong" side of the stock.
I've not seen the low-profile fence suggested for such a situation, until I saw that drawing, so am curious as to how effective people think it might be.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/19/2008 2:36 pm by forestgirl
Well, I can see how having the fence low would help.
I've never used ( what did you call it?) a half fence.
Is there a danger of the far end drifting and the near end
binding in the blade?
FG
I misread your post when I made that last reply. That low fence arrangement is available on my saw too but I don't use it as I still fail to see how it really helps, except to make the work more visible (but that seems unnecessary too).
Anyway, here are some photos of two methods I use to cut narrow pieces. I prefer the sliding table method unless the workpiece is long & narrow, in which case the fence + hold down method works safely.
The S/T method uses the fence to set the width of the required narrow piece (1.5mm+ in the pic). The sliding table's fence stop is set to match. The fence is moved away; The cut is made. The operation is repeated with the same fence setting and the sliding table stop gradually moving in each time (by that 1.5mm + the saw kerf width).
The fence + hold down method uses the fence as normal but with hold downs and feather board ensuring the little bits don't wander or fire up/back should saw teeth catch at them. The short false fence and riving knife mean that this rarely happens. (The wood must be warped for it to occur).
Note the short fence, which is actually a short false fence, fixed to the full fence via it's T-slots. The short false fence ends before it reaches the back of the blade. Even so, the whole fence is also toed-out by 0.25 - 0.5mm front to back. We do not want that pinching!
The hold downs are adapted from The LV router fence ones. (I think I may have shown you these before).
Lataxe
Is it just me or could the blade need cleaning? Your zero clearance needs some work too by the look in the photos.
The blade does need cleaning, although I don't believe that had any bearing on the incident. Our blades regularly go out to sharpening about once every 2 weeks, and they get cleaned at that time. They usually don't manage to get this messy, but this one obviously did some softwood cutting recently.
The gaps in the insert are there of necessity, and part of the way a slider is built. The blade is about 8mm from the edge of the aluminum sliding carriage, and it is impractical to fill that gap. The "hole" in the forefront of the photo is for the scoring blade which is below table level in this shot.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
A dirty blade takes away the clearance for the cutting edge and will make the blade "drag" while trying to cut. I know the type of saw you using now, would be nice to have less "gap" but thats the way they are. (glad you were not hit)
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