To buy a combo machine or individuals?

siskiyou | Posted in General Discussion on December 6, 2004 08:15am

Looking for input. These discussions are great. Partly because I do have limited space for a shop 12’x20′ garage. Does it make sense to buy a combo machine such as a Robland x31 or buy individual machines? Seems like you get a lot more tool with the combo. Such as you get a 12″ jointer and 3hp shaper. I could never buy those machines since I’d be getting a 6″ jointer for example( I guess). The Robland is around $5000 and a good table saw, jointer, planer, shaper and mortiser could be in that range and the combo is so small a footprint. Wondering what some of you may think? Thanks so much

Replies

Vibart2 | Dec 06, 2004 09:51am | #1
Well the way I understand it you need access to both sides of this machine is this right? If so how wide is it? Will you have to place it in the middle of the 12'wide shop. How much room will that leave you on each side? How long is the sliding table? Is this workable. Is your door way wide enough to get the tool into the shop.

My List.

Grizzly G1029SL Cabinet Saw.             $895.00

Grizzly 8" G1018 with Hand wheels    $895.00

Grizzly 15" planer G0551 Planer          $675.00

Grizzly 3 hp shaper G1026                   $835.00

                                                           ________

Total                                                   $3320.00

Not counting shipping I live close to a Grizzly store.

Now add a Dust collector G0548          $450.00

Now add a band-saw      G0513          $750.00

Now add a Drill press      G7946          $179.00

Now add a air compressor H3717        $449.00

Now add a Combination sander G1014Z $219.95

                                                               _________

Total                                                      $5367.95

We haven't talked about Dust collection ducting, Nail & staple guns, electric hand tools, regular hand tools, safety devices, router bits, saw blades, extra jointer & planer blades or things like spindle sanders or mortisers.

I don't have but a few of the model tools listed above some didn't exist when I purchased my tools. But I do know a few people that do have some of them & they have been very good tools.

One of the most important tools you can have is this little software program called Easy shop designer it free you can download it here.

http://www.inthewoodshop.org/software/software.shtml

I used it to lay out my shop you can see my floor lay out on the opening page of my web site. I am in an evolution right now which will change that floor plan a little.

Oh by the way my shop is 13'5" x 24'5" so I know what your going through.

You can see it here http://bartswoodshop.freeservers.com/

Watch out it has pop ups but that is what I pay for a free web site.

Sucking.......Whoosh.......Yowl........Whoosh.........Thrump puttytat up the DC..

Michmesquite | Dec 06, 2004 11:14am | #2
MiniMax CU300 S - $11,000+

Having a Euro-style sliding table - priceless._________________________________

Michael in San Jose

"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell

macalex | Dec 06, 2004 12:02pm | #3
I agree about a Euro sliding saw - as the owner of a Minimax panel saw.

There have (as you'd expect) been a few discussions about this tradeoff - stand-alone vs a combo.

Answer probably depends on which combo, but I've seen a couple of very convincing discussions about the benefits of a combo on style and efficiency of work ... you approach a set of related operations (say preparing an edge and face, then a finished dimensioned board, then cross-cutting to length, then cutting joints) differently when using a combo than if you had seperates.

The assumption that you might make - that a combo is a compromise, and the ideal would be a full set of seperates - is not necessarily true.

New Zealand | New Thinking

Michmesquite | Dec 06, 2004 06:40pm | #6
If I had a 2,000 sf shop, I would have separates, but I don't.

With a combo, simply have an extra cup of coffee and think about how you want to run the job and go do it. Doesn't take any longer and you don't give up any quality with the combo tool._________________________________

Michael in San Jose

"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell

GHR | Dec 06, 2004 04:17pm | #4
I don't have a jointer. I have not used my tablesaw for the past couple months except for cutting some plywood for fixtures. (I have few hand tools.)

I have made in the past several months: 2 chairs, 2 tables, 1 piecrust table, 2 low boys. I am currently making 24 chairs and 2 display cabinets.

Big power tools:

14" bandsaw with riser. 13" finish planer. 7-1/4" circular saw. Perhaps $1500 in those tools.

Lumber:

300 bdft 8/4 x 10-18" x 11'. Perhaps $2500.

I would suggest that you build stuff before you buy expensive tools.

siskiyou | Dec 07, 2004 05:01am | #8
I like your advice a lot. Thanks. You must use a Router ( most likely with a table) quit a bit also, right? Maybe a drill press? But the bandsaw and planer seem to be essentials. O.K. thanks again. Michael

stephengaal | Dec 06, 2004 04:56pm | #5
I own a Robland X-31. I bought it for the sliding table. Although the sliding table is useful, particularly if you do a lot of work with plywood, I would be just as happy with a shop built cross-cut sled on a Delta or Powermatic table saw. Getting the sliding table aligned is a bitch. The X-31 group on yahoo finally got a machinist to make up a set of jigs like the factory has. I have NEVER, re NEVER, used the shaper. The 12" jointer, on the other hand, is almost worht the price of admission. And the horiztonal mortiser is also very useful. The changeover from one function to another is easier than I thought it would be. Takes no more than 15-20 seconds for the worst case which is the jointer to planer conversion.

See the following yahoo group on the X-31

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RoblandX-31/

The advice of making some stuff and seeing what you really need before spending a lot of money is good advice. There are also used machines available since many of the combo machine uers have groups or electronic bulletin boards and machines get bought and sold.

Good luck.

Stephen J. Gaal
giametti | Dec 07, 2004 03:14am | #7
I used a Robland X31 for 4 years, and built some great stuff with it. I sold it a year ago and bought a Minimax CU300 Smart. My shop is 16' x 30' and a combo is almost essential in a small shop like this.
Overall fit, finish and engineering of the Minimax is better than the Robland X31. The table saw on the original X31 is a very poor design, needing constant maintenance to keep it in spec. The newer Robland NLX31 appears to have a much better design. I compared them head to head last year, and found I leaned toward the Minimax. On delivery, I found it needed very little "dialing in" of all its functions, and has held its accuracy perfectly over the past year.
The rest of the functions of the Robland I owned were pretty good. A sliding table with a shaper is a joy when making cope and stick doors and panelling. I found the jointer on my Robland held it's settings far better than I thought it would. I put a set of carbide knives in it, and got great joints without changing knives for a couple years. Still the jointer/planer on the Minimax is better designed and made. The tersa knives allow perfect knife changes in a few minutes. The jointer fence is much easier to keep square, and to set to accurate angles.
I firmly believe that any combo will give you more machinery than buying separates. However, if I had space, I would go with separate saw/shaper and jointer/planer machines. Check out the head to head of combo machines FWW did several months ago. If its not on this site, you can find it on the Minimax-usa site (it gave the knod to the MM in the sub $10K machines).
siskiyou | Dec 07, 2004 05:12am | #9
This is all really good input. Thanks again for your time to all. Any more ideas is great as well.

hammer1 | Dec 07, 2004 05:43pm | #11
I think it's a good idea to know what you will be doing for work before buying machines. I do a combination of millwork and cabinetry. Sometimes I need to be able to handle 16' long stock as well as 4' x 8' sheets. Most of the time I'm running smaller and shorter material. I use a variety of jigs and fixtures to prepare stock and cut joints. Auxiliary fences, sleds, feather boards, tenon jigs and stock feeders along with dado blades and the occasional molding head are important for my techniques with the table saw. One of the most important accessories to my saw is an out feed table. Can all of these be easily attached to a combo machine? The combination machines are very heavy. I've heard some stories of broken tables and other parts just trying to unload them from the truck. If you have to take one down the basement stairs you will have to do some disassembly.There are regular times when, after a rip on the saw, I want to join the edge. Can you do that on the combo machines, and do you have to reach over something else to get to different functions? Do you have to knock down one set up to use a different machine? Can you attach extension tables to any of the functions of combo machines. Another question I have is dust collection. Will you have several hoses sticking out all around or do you keep moving one? The planer and joiner usually share the same knives on the combo's so they have to do double duty. The planers are almost on the floor with some models, I wouldn't like bending over or kneeling. The joiners seem to be in the middle of the machine, I don't think I'd like reaching especially with a swing arm type guard. I'd also be curious about electrical connections, can you unplug for cutter changing and do standard saw blades and shaper cutters fit. For the price of a combination machine, I would want the different functions to be on a par with industrial level separates. The one point I like about combos is the wide joiner but if it won't support large stock or is hard to reach, what's the use. The slot morticers are also a nice feature but only if they are a regular part of the joinery you use. Sorry, all I have are questions.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
ian | Dec 08, 2004 12:52pm | #13
Some things for you to think about ...

are you working for your own pleasure or to put food on the table?is your shop a place wherein you can potter about or is completing a piece quickly important?will you be building large or small pieces?

a combo may take up less net space than individual machines, but individual machines can be pushed against the walls when not in use freeing floor space for other purposes.

my preference is for individual machines (table saw, band saw, jointer/planer, router table, SCMS) because it maximises the useable floor area. BTW if I need to break down sheet goods I most often use a power hand saw and straight edge — most of the time I can get my sheet good supplier to cut a sheet to the sizes I require.

Ian

MyTacoma | Dec 07, 2004 10:39am | #10
Hey I too have a 12x20 shop and faced similar issues as yours. I think a combo is a great idea for people with limited space, but you may want to check the overall dimension to make sure you have ample amount of space to do your work and to move things around the machine. I had initially looked at the Mini Max CU300 combo, but I opted against it because I wasn't convinced that it was the most optimal/efficient way to use the individual machines. The change overs seemed like a hassle. Also the unit weighs over 1,300 lbs. Instead I got a 14-inch jointer/planer (no mortiser) and a large panel saw with the standard 5ft. slider and outrigger. I had to remove the extension table on the saw in order to fit both machines. One thing I regret is not getting the shaper/saw unit. If I had a larger shop I'd get all separate machines. I get lazy sometimes and don't enjoy cranking the planer bed handle 80 revolutions to convert from jointer to planer. If you're methodical and very patient, a combo could be a great option for you. Make sure to visit a woodworking show or ask around to see if anyone in your area has one. Perform all the change overs to see if you're comfortable doing it several times a day.
CharlieP | Dec 08, 2004 06:34am | #12
I have built a lot of furniture with a contractor saw, router, (until recently) no bandsaw, etc. But it takes a lot of time to get precise cuts with no tear out, etc. A lot of planning to be sure the sheet of plywood is well supported and moves precisely when working alone. (And people who like heirloom quality furniture also like entertainment centers, so plywood is as important as hardwood).

My MiniMax combo is scheduled to arrive later this month.

________________________
Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood