I’m getting in a lot of time in my shop, lately, so naturally, I’m confronting a lot of questions.
This time it’s my MKII sharpening guide. Works like a champ with my plane irons. However, I cannot tighten it down enough that my bench chisels don’t slip about as I try to hone them on my waterstones. Yep, I’ve used pliers – fraid to tighten tighter or something will brake (bends now).
I’ve added sandpaper to the moveable part of the holder (adding it to the fixed part will change the angle) with exactly zero result – darn chisel moves anyway.
To resolve this issue, my MKII resides in it’s box whilst I proceed with my project using my Spinning Thing 3000 ( can’t think of its name – too much scotch?) to sharpen said chisels. This works well, but I would like to be able to use the MKII as designed, from time to time.
Chisel’s in question are the Swiss Made from Woodcraft. They seem to be flat, so making good contact with the clamping parts of the MKII shouldn’t be an issue.
Ideas?????
Replies
This time it's my MKII sharpening guide. Works like a champ with my plane irons. However, I cannot tighten it down enough that my bench chisels don't slip about as I try to hone them on my waterstones. Yep, I've used pliers - fraid to tighten tighter or something will brake (bends now).
Ideas?????
Too much scotch?
Seriously, though, I have the same jig and have never had a problem. I definitely think using pliers to tighten the clamping mechanism is a no-no, and may have contributed to the problem -- especially considering the jig body is aluminum. I suppose it is possible to line the clamping surfaces with a fine grit PSA paper to increase friction. Your best bet may be to contact Lee Valley.
Check whether the backs of your chisels are flat. If they have a high spot (slight dome), then they will pivot on this.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Mike_D,
Mine slips too Mike, especially on the smaller chisels, it's a pain. But, so what, it's just a height guide. Your fingers should be down near the tip of chisel applying a bit of pressure and the MKII is basically just guiding. Sometimes I just do the chisels free hand checking results frequently...the chisel gets sharper and that's the point. The MKII has imprinted me with the correct angle.
OK, I will both check to verify that there is no slight domeing to the back of the chisel, and change my technique so that my fingers are at the tip of the chisel and not holding tightly onto the MKII.
So much to learn - so little time.
P.S. too much scotch relates to writing these missives late at night - no scotch during shop time - see - all my fingers are still attached :)
My small chisels will slip also, the 1/8" and 1/4" sizes are a particular problem. Like others, it is just a guide, and how you hold the chisel and the MKII solves that problem. It is more of an issue on the Two Cherries that are polished than my Japanese chisels that are just ground flat. I have flattened the back of the Two Cherries and that made them a better chisel but they are longer and just move around a bit more.
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
So much to learn - so little time
My thought is very little sleep MAY help?
Mike:
"my Spinning Thing 3000 ( can't think of its name - too much scotch?)"
You do realize, that with that statement, a marketing executive died somewhere.
Hastings
I feel his pain. On the other hand, I like it. It has a certain je ne sais quoi, don't you think? My grandmother taught me that if you blend in enough humor with your dementia it keeps folks thinking maybe you are just having fun.'sides, it's a long steep flight of stairs back down into my basement workshop that late at night - Spinning Thing 3000 works just fine at that point. And, I can remember it! - so, that's settled - "Spinning Thing 3000" is now my name for the WorkSharp.Mike D :)
"Keeping it Strange in Louisville"
Edited 12/28/2008 9:26 am ET by Mike_D
Maybe he just turned to his own bottle of scotch!! A bottle in front of me beats a frontal lobotomy type thing. LOL
Happy New Year!!
Mack
"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Edited 12/30/2008 4:46 pm ET by Mackwood
Hey Mike
I remember this being discussed before. The best proposed idea was to make certain that the clamping plate is level. In other words, make sure that the tightening screws are the same tension. You do it by tightening a little at a time on each side, like you're tightening gasket bolts on a car.
It actually helps a lot. You can still make the chisel slip, but this is a big improvement.
I also glued some 180 sandpaper to the inside of the clamping plate. It helps a little too.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
David B
Edited 12/28/2008 10:08 am ET by davidbrum
Now that it's daylight and I've got some ideas to look at, it's time to foray back into the shop. Flat tops on the chisels - check, level holding doo-dad when tightened - check, not TOO much pressure - check, hold the chisel at the tip and not at the MKII - huh? oy, but check, plus I've already put pressure stick sandpaper on the stationary part of the MKII. This should be solvable, yes? And if all else fails, I should maybe develop the skill of just holding the chisel in my (gasp) uncluttered hand. I love woodworking.Mike D
As well as making sure the pressure is equal on both sides make sure that the chisel is in the center of the jig -- I find that helps.
I remember this being discussed before. The best proposed idea was to make certain that the clamping plate is level. In other words, make sure that the tightening screws are the same tension.
Not sure it applies to you problem but I would think so.
My Tormek sometimes would grind an edge that was on 90 degrees on the edge. As I recall I E-Mailed the Tormek folks. About the same answer. I was not / or did something clamping the tool down. I did as they suggested on BOTH screws the same tightness and problem solved.
Yes, not the same issue but I would think related. I have a MKII and it works on my many junk and a few quality chisels and plane blades.
A thought I had was maybe you are overtightening?
Hi WillI was just responding to the OP's request for ideas about making the MKll work better. The sandpaper and even tension trick works pretty well for me, although I will agree that there are probably better chisel guides out there.When sharpening narrow chisels, I keep a small machinist's square handy so I can make sure that the chisel hasn't shifted. It definitely helps to apply most of the pressure as low as possible.As I own and operate a retail store, I'm afraid the Tormek fairy won't be coming to my house this year. I've gotten pretty proficient with the MKll though, and it does warm me up in the cold garage.Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.David B
David
I only mentioned the Tormek as a reference for a clamping issue holding a tool. Not a 'gloat' on my part.
Only a reference to tightening one side of the clamp tighter than the other can cause problems even on other tools. On my Tormek, I was getting edges that were slightly off of 90 degrees. Make a nice skew edge though. :>)
I thought I had my blades clamped correctly but I did not. The Tormek rep. gave me the answer to my problem without even time to think about it. Seems he had run into the issue with more than several users. I would assume many folks do it.
Have a GREAT NEW YEAR.
Hi WillDon't worry, I didn't think you were gloating. I hope you have a great New Year as well!Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.David B
Me worry?
Mike,
I used to use the Mark I, then I sold it and got a Mark II. But for quite a while, I just do it by hand. Wish I would have started out that way. Very Fast. Get a DVD on sharpening by Rob Cosman, or read Charlesworth on sharpening. Give it a try. What have you got to lose.
I do my chisels and my carving gouges on oilstones. I do my plane irons on diamondstones. The small chisels and gouges can dig into the waterstones, I have found that for me, thee oilstones, ending with a Norton Translucent hard Arkansas works great.
Let me know if I can answer any specific questions.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I also use oil stones (mostly) and love them dearly. I notice you mention the transluscent, hard Arkansas. I've never heard of it (but I don't get out much). How does this compare to the black, hard Arkansas? I've been thinking of going one step beyond the black, hard. Right now I'm using a chunk of leather sprayed with mineral spirits and charged with Rottenstone as a strop after using the black, hard stone.
I get the feeling this might be like going from 120 grit straight to 400. Thoughts?
Regards and Happy New Year!
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Mack,
I did some reading and found that the Norton Translucent Hard Arkansas stone was recommended by some people I respect. I gave it a try. It works very nicely. I used to use it with Norton Honing Oil. After Ray Pine (joinerswork) told me he uses Marvel Mystery Oil, I invested a couple of dollars in a small bottle and tested the two side by side on my oilstones. I immediately felt that the Norton oil, which is pink-colored mineral oil is MUCH thicker, and it doesn't give as much "feel" of the stone doing the cutting as the MMO does. So I switched to MMO. I don't think it is a big thing, but what the heck. There is another type of Hard Arkansas stone which is referred to as Surgical Black. You can find these at cheap prices on EBay. I have seen and felt a number of the, and tried a few. The cheapies are not nearly the quality of the Norton Translucent stone. You can read a lot about the decreasing quality of Hard Arkansas stones. I highly recommend dealing with someone you can trust. I trust the guy that owns "Tools for Working Wood". YOu can find it at:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/The oilstones are on:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=THOYou can contact Joel here on Knots. His name is "joelm". I am sure he will steer you right on the availability of the really good Surgical Blacks and Translucent Hard Arkansas stones, and he will give you a good recommendation on what to get now. My humble opinion is that the Norton Translucent is pretty good. The following is something you may not get from Joel. This is something that I have come upon. I bought a Spyderco Ultrafine Ceramic stone. I tested it versus a leather strop impregnated with honing compound. There is no contest. The ceramic stone wins. After using my two oilstones, I do a "strop" on the Spyderco Ultrafine Ceramic stone. When I need to strop, I go to the Spyderco. While carving, the Spyderco is the only stone I keep on my bench, and I strop a gouge on it for a few seconds after about ten minutes of use ( more or less). I don't think that it is necessary to go to the ceramic stone, but it works for me. I like it not only because of its effect but because it is used without water or oil. So it is really "no muss, no fuss". Let me know what you decide to do. I hope the info I have sent you is useful . Remember that free advice is worth about what you paid for it. I am happy to pass on to you what I have learned. Obviously this sharpening stuff has extreme religious overtones. I will try to answer any other questions you may have. If you want to ask any sharpening questions involving oilstones to a master woodworker, I suggest you write to Ray Pine (joinerswork). I am a mere hobbyist who takes his woodwork seriously. Ray has made his living at it for a long time.HAPPY NEW YEAR. Happy woodworking.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Thanks very much for the thoughtful, informative and light hearted reply! I know what you mean about the "religious" aspect of sharpening. I hesitated (slightly) before even mentioning oil stones for fear of attack by the "Water Stone Crusaders"! LOL
The Arkansas stones I have were a gift to me by a dear old lady friend (long departed). They were part of her husbands equipment and I suspect they are probably much older than me (58). She gave them to me for helping her sell lots of his stuff when he passed. I oo'd and ah'd them when we dug them out of a file cabinet and she set them aside for me. I never gave them another thought until she handed them to me a month or so later. I doubt the same quality is readily available today. I have three, labeled Medium, Fine and Extra Fine; the black being the Extra Fine.
I do all my sharpening freehand and can shave hair with most edges after the black stone and the strop with the rottenstone I mentioned.
I use mineral spirits on all the stones but I have some MMO in my shop so I will definitely try it out on the next go-round!
Thanks again for your patience and willingness to share!
Happy New Year back at cha'
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Mack,
That was a great post. Heck, if you are shaving with the items that you have sharpened on your oilstones, then you have all that you need. No sense screwing up something that is working fine. Having tools that were passed down from parents and friends is a very special thing. You could teach sharpening with oilstones!!!!!
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am pretty happy with my sharpening set up (most of the time). I really have to resist the temptation to become more involved with the process than with the results if you know what I mean.
You're absolutely right about the special nature of passed down tools. Almost all of my tools, both hand and stationary, are old, passed down, restored or a combination of the above. I enjoy tinkering with old tools almost as much as doing wood work!
So much fun to experience--so little time!!
Thanks again!
Mack
"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Edited 12/31/2008 10:37 am ET by Mackwood
Mack,
I have two Arkansas translucent stones of my dads. He was a dentist in the 50's and used them on his dental picks and tools. He apparently did not use oil with his very often, as the sides are clear but the tops are filled with steel. I use water stones, and have no idea how to clean them for use. I am wondering how you prepped the old stones you graciously received?
Thanks AZMO
<!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
AZMO,
I did nothing to them. They were "as new" when I received them. I have a couple of Arkansas stones that came with Buck knives. I acquired these used and in "not so good" condition. I took some 400 grit wet/dry, silcon-carbide sandpaper, laid it on a flat surface, lubed it with mineral spirits and worked them over. I worked up a good slury two or three times, rinsing the stones in clean MS between and after. They came out pretty good. This may not be "the way" but they worked better after than before so at least I did no damage! LOL
Hope this helps!
Happy New Year!
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Referring to the Kell and Eclipse honing guides, I bought one of those 28 years ago. Only mine is a Stanley.Now to start a flame war :-)This site http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.htmlseems to be written by somebody who is only interested in sharpening. Not woodworking or any actual use of sharp tools. Leaving out his extreme positions on many topics he does seem to make some valid points.One of them is that since a sharp edge is defined by the intersection of 2 planes any attempt at freehand sharpening will result in a less than perfect edge as it is not possible to maintain the exact same angle between and during strokes.I suppose that the end result depends on how well one can maintain the angle. However, having discarded my "training wheels" some months ago, and feeling rather self-satisfied with my results, I tried using the honing guide again.I am convinced that I got a better edge than usual on both a chisel and a plane iron. On the basis that I am after sharp edges and not a mastery of freehand honing I have decided to go back to using the guide regularly. It only takes a few seconds to set it up.(Puts on body armour and cowers, waiting for a reaction.)
I like my honing guides. I have a few for different types of blades. I couldn't care less about the opinions of those who insist that real woodworkers only sharpen free hand. It the same folks who tell you that you have to practice sawing until your hardwood dts fit gap free off the saw - you should saw your tenons to the exact right size from the saw rather than use a shoulder plane or otherwise tweak - you must never resort to sandpaper - and on and on. Blathering machismo nonsense.
No need to take flak from this sector.
Have you seen this guide Stanley came up with for use with plane blades? This was supplied to me free when I bought my first Stanley plane #41/2 as a youth. I got the Eclipse later and have used it ever since. There are now two versions of the Eclipse in which the jaws differ, but I see no reason for them to have changed.Philip Marcou
Any more room in your bunker? You won't get incoming from this part of the world either.
I have a Veritas Mk II,and am very happy with it.Maybe I'm just not competent enough to do the 'by hand' thing,but as you say,sets up in no time and gives consistant results every time,all good.
Robin
davcefai,"I suppose that the end result depends on how well one can maintain the angle. However, having discarded my "training wheels" some months ago, and feeling rather self-satisfied with my results, I tried using the honing guide again."I think that is a very curious statement. You appear to be saying your hand honing skills were producing satisfactory results. In other words, your skill level had reached a point where you could shape the cutting edge to the job needs?..but not to the point that the 'tool' could be all that it could be in terms of sharpness?
The problem with that is the number of hand tools, etc. that need sharpening and won't fit in a jig and have to be sharpened by hand. Also, it seems to me, learning to relate the tool to the needs (sharpness, shape, etc.) is a much more important skill.I'm saying this because I do the same damn thing...sigh!
My "curious" statement, obviously badly expressed, was meant to convey that although my freehand skills seem to be "good enough", on examination turned out to be "less good" than using a honing guide.I appreciate your point about tools that will not fit in a jig. However my current needs can be met with a guide. I therefore prefer to use the guide since my objective is well planed wood. When my objectives change - and they will - I shall have to attempt to perfect my freehand skills.
Where I can I freehand, and where I can't I don't.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I thought I could, but found that I almost can :-)
Mel..
Not thumping any religion or any bible but good words to have in your thoughts anyway. My opinion only.
Something on tools I found. I just love to play on words...
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/T/TOOLS/
Agree or not? I do and don't. Easy way out of a fist fight!
And Gemstones of the Bible. Maybe some in there make a perfect honing stone?
http://www.rockhoundingar.com/miscellaneous/bible.html
And I found.. Welcome to Arkansas Stone Grades 101
http://www.danswhetstone.com/stone_grades_101.htm
And..
http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/basic-honing/16043-hone-lapping-101-a.html
I havin' fun with Google..
And from Japan..
http://www.seibu-jk.co.jp/StoneLapping_Eng..html
I have read that Arkansas is 99.9% silica. About a pure as Gold smelters can get and it is in it's natural state!
I was having the same problem on my Veritas MK 1 and I glued a piece of rubber on the part of the clamp that contacts the blade. This seamed to work pretty well.
Good luck.
Troy
Well, the problem turned out to be two-fold. 1st, as Derek surmised, my new chisels had slightly domed backs. Fixed that. Secondly, as someone else suggested, hold the chisel at the tip and not by the handle as I was doing - that took the twisting pressure off the tool.I also caused a problem by putting pressure stick 150 grit sandpaper on the stationary part to improve holding power. Indeed, the sandpaper got a great grip on the chisel, but it's adhesive is the gummy kind and acts as a lubricant under sufficient pressure - chisel, sandpaper, et al, all turn together. So I removed it. Now with flat chisels and an improved technique, problem all gone.I am going to take Mel's and other's suggestion to devote some time to learning the skill of doing this free hand. My dad and all my uncles could do it, so the genes are in there somewhere. By crowning my grindstone, I have learned to quickly hollow grind almost anything without burning the edge, so there's hope.Thanks to everyone for the kind suggestions.Mike D
Edited 12/28/2008 11:43 pm ET by Mike_D
Mike,
I really enjoyed your message to ALL. Sounds like you solved some problems and are having fun. I am happy to hear that you will try to do some sharpening by hand (no jig). Find a few old chisels, and once a week, spend ten minutes practicing. The most important things to remember are:
- Check your progress often while learning! Use a magic marker to see exactly where you are removing metal. Then make adjustments on how you are holding the chisel.
- when you are starting a chisel from scratch and you flatten the edge, use a magnifying glass if you need to to check progress in getting rid of the flat edge.
- There are a number of books and videos which show you ways of holding your arms and hands while acting as a "human jig". Any of them can be made to work. The secret for me was to only move "from the waist down", and to hold my fingers, wrists, and arms all LOCKED. Then you are a human jig.When I freed myself from the use of a jig for honing, I enjoyed woodworking even more. I can hone in a minute and continue my work without A MAJOR SHARPENING BREAK. Have a great 2009.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It's simply a lousy design for narrow chisels. Richard Kell makes a better chisel honing guide if you need one.
Edited 12/29/2008 11:57 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Hey Charlie, when did you start using a honing guide?! :)
I will add, teasing aside, that the Kell is excellent for side clamping, useful for mortice chisels. I bought one for this purpose. It is not pleasant to use as there is no easy way to grip it. Possibly one of the more uncomfortable honing guides around.
All honing guides excel in some areas. None are perfect. The Veritas does a lot of things very well, more so that the rest. But mortice chisels are not one of its strengths.
Regards from Perth
Derek
That's an intriguing design. I did come across this old thing while rooting around in my toolbox. As I recall it has no trouble holding whatever I choose to put in it.
Rockler carries them (it's their picture, too).
Edited 12/29/2008 5:29 pm ET by Mike_D
Lee Valley also has similar (same?) device. I just ordered one last week. Worth a try for $10.50Vise-Type Honing Guide 60N01.05Larry
Edited 12/30/2008 11:27 am ET by larinUP
Note the silence from Rob Lee .I can hear the gears grinding in the land of exemplary tools. <g> They had the same trouble with the Mk 1 guide and came up with a stick on fix!
I have collected a few guides over the years. Veritas Mk I and Mk 2, Eclipse, Kell and Stanley. I have even made a few.
There is no one size fits all. No single guide that can do it all. However, the Veritas Mk 2 comes closest, and leads the race by a few lengths. It is also much more expensive than the others when you add in all the accesories. That is not a criticism, however, just a statement of recognition that the more one demands of a tool, the more complex it will become.
I do use the Mk 2 for BU plane blade microbevels. I use the small Kell for mortice chisel secondary bevels. All else I hollow grind and freehand.
Regards from Perth
Derek
That is a copy of the Eclipse type, if not an actual Eclipse. You should not refer to it as a "device"-use more reverent terminology (;). Saves time , steel and needless stone wear.Philip Marcou
Device? Did I say device? Oh....no.... Wait! That was SOME ONE ELSE and not me (whew!). My actual word was "Design". Design is ok, yes? (Eclipse - must write that down...)Whilst being moved by the written word, Mel's comment that he uses the Spyderco Ultrafine stone for final honing got me remembering that I use Spyderco stones for sharpening my trusty pocket knife, cum pry-bar, cum sandwich cutter (and NOT boot cleaner). Does a great job, but it's a rod shaped thingy. Do not try this on a chisel or plane iron (says so right on the box).So, this being Christmas and all, and the market being determined to take all my hard earned money before I can spend it, I spent $52 on a 3"x8" version. Surely This will solve all my problems with poor eyesight and muscle coordination. I WILL learn to make flawless hinge mortises with hand tools.Mike D
When things slip I use the emery cloth for plumbing as its two sided.
I was having the same issues on narrow chisels. Instead of sandpaper I glued on a thin (about 1/16") piece of leather on the full length and width of the movable jaw. It works very well, with the chisel seating into the leather slightly. This works well on some small sash mortise chisels I have where the front and back of the chisel are not in the same plane. I also found that double checking the alignment of the chisel periodically with a small engineer's square is good practice, as is using a light touch when sharpening. I was being a bit "ham fisted" and the pressure I was putting on the tip of the chisel blade caused the blade to twist in the clamp jaw as I worked around the stone surface. I changed to a lighter approach and now always work straight back and forth on the stone. If I want to change the location of the chisel on the stone I pick it up and relocate it rather than "steering" it while honing.
My $0.02, YMMV
- Rob
Hi Rob,
"Ham fisted" sounds like me, alright. Thanks for the leather idea.I finally solved my problem by flattening the tops of my chisels (they were slightly domed) and not being so ham fisted, myself.Got it working now,Best Regards,Mike D
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