Hey everyone,
I’m a woodworker (big surprise!) stuck in hardwood-less western Canada. I suspect that the hardwood I buy locally is WAY overpriced and would be very interested to hear from you all (especially easterners) regarding what you consider to be average prices for common hardwoods.
Replies
I forget the prices shortly after I purchase, so can't help you there, but you aren't far from some pretty good sources in the US. What might be the complications of going back across the border with a trailer of hardwood?
I believe that there is issues with importing wood into Canada. We recently got passports for our children, and there was a little pamphlet included on what needs to be declared. Wood was on the list, though it didn't go into specifics.
It was nice of the government to send the paphlet... but I doubt my 9 month old boys will be importing any wood, firearms, or eggs. Oddly formula was on the list.
Maybe the wood they meant would be wood intended for campfires. There's an epidemic of the emerald ash borer (insect) in at least Ohio and Michigan, that I know of, and they would not want tourists transporting the little nasties into your beautiful country.
Softwood is fairly controlled. I believe that you are you are spot on, all these little nasty bugs imported from all over the world. We even have a few of our own... The pine beetle. Good thing nobody likes pine...
Forestgirl,Where would you buy 4,5 or quarter cherry in your area? It seems that the prices up here are out of sight and it would be worth a trip down if I could source it.Thanks,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I tend to shop at Crosscut Hardwoods in Seattle, but I think there are a couple other places that might be good. Also, I could check with Dennis up near Everett and see if he knows a place that's closer to the border. Lemme check around, I'll get back to you on some sources. I can call for $$ at Crosscut too.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 3/7/2008 12:59 am by forestgirl
Many thanks.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Hi, Peter. I sent a couple of emails out tonight. I'll try and remember tomorrow or Saturday to call "my guy" at Crosscut. Not that I buy that much stuff, but he always remembers me and he's eversohelpful.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Peter, I don't know what I didn't think of this earlier, but Edensaw has opened a new warehouse/showroom in Seattle. I generally go to their place in Port Townsend, way out of the way for you, but you could drop by their place near Boeing Surplus. I'll have to look around to find the address and phone, but will find it here somewhere. Their prices are a little higher than Crosscut. If you buy enough stuff, though, I think they'll give you a discount.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes it pay to walk BEHIN a woman.. NOT in front if you want the best way!
Thanks again. Looks like I will have to hook up the trailer and do the rounds soon.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Peter, I just left Coyote Wood Shop on Bainbridge Island, owned by David Kotz. He was having a sale this weekend, trying to clear out some of the lumber he had milled from various trees on the island and nearby. He didn't have much cherry, unfortunately -- the only cherry he gets is the local wild cherry. He's got some wonderful Madrona, though, lots of bark-on stuff, big maple and some yew, several other odd kinds of this and that. The big deal, though, is that he slabbed out the huge maple burl that was cited here awhile back, that had been on Craig's list for $4K. It was about 4' tall, ~3' across at the bottom. It's now sitting in a stickered stack right at the front of his shop, slabs are about 4" thick.
His "yard" is sort of a Field of Dreams for a good woodworker -- tree after tree after tree that's been felled (or fell naturally) just layin' there waiting to be cut up. I had a credit coming for a maple tree I hooked him up with, so I put it toward an 8' 8/4 slab of Madrona ~12" wide. Have no idea what I'll do with it, but I've always wanted some to play with, don't think I've ever seen any at Crosscut or Edensaw.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Oh do let us know what you end up doing with it.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
What are you paying for 6/4 cherry (red -their description) at Crosscut?
In Portland Crosscut is charging 4.50 to 9.50 depending on the rain.
More in Eugene.
JohnEdited 3/7/2008 10:31 am by boilerbay
Edited 3/7/2008 10:32 am by boilerbay
I haven't bought cherry since early last year, but I'm going to call and get some prices today or tomorrow.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
OK, Peter.....the good news and the maybe not-so-good news.
I got prices for cherry, for figured cherry, hard maple and figured maple (he called it "Western curly"). Prices are for rough and for "straight line" -- SL .
You could get 10% off the prices below by either (a) using my Crosscut account or (b) coming down during the week when their accounting office is open and presenting your business license to establish an account. Most of that 10% gets eaten up, however, by the 8.6% state tax you'd have to pay.
Cherry rough $7.50/BF SL $8.50/BF (ouch)
Hard Maple rough $4.95/BF SL $5.75/BF
Figured Maple rough $10/BF
None of this is cheap, eh? If you could find a mill somewhere, not to far from the border, wouldn't that be nice???
If you want their phone number, drop me an email.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 3/8/2008 10:21 pm by forestgirl
Thank very much for the trouble you went to. I will be in touch shortly and let you know.Merci,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
You could go by this place in Bellingham. Dennis sent me their name, though he said he didn't see much in the way of domestic hardwoods the one time he went there.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thank you, I will indeed.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
FG,Sales tax? We dun't pays no stinkin tax.
Then again, we dun't have na roads or schools.Seriously, I think Crosscut is higher up there than down here. We do have a fair amount of industrial suppliers here so maybe that's the competitive balance. The industrial suppliers here deliver but they are talking fuel surcharges now.For you on the island, what does that work out to when you add the ocean voyage or the petrol to drive around the horn?
For me, the run to Portland adds another $35 in gas on the pick up.John
Hah! Yes, Sales Tax. No income tax, so we have the most regressive way to finance our state's needs.
We buy a 20-ride commuter card (10 round-trips) to save money on ferry rides, runs ~$185 so the round-trip to Seattle is about $18.50. Time's a factor too, as one rarely zips back to the ferry just in time for the next boat. Sometimes I go down to Port Townsend and visit Edensaw, much prettier drive and a couple of great cafes on the route -- the Spruce Goose Cafe at PT airport, and the Chimicum Cafe in the great metropolis of Chimicum. Edensaw's prices are a little higher yet than Crosscut. I generally find better stuff on the shelf at Crosscut, but that might be just me not looking hard enough. Edensaw has a huge warehouse.
No way it pays to go around the horn to get to Seattle. Only to Tacoma or Portland.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Cherry rough $7.50/BF SL $8.50/BF (ouch)
Hard Maple rough $4.95/BF SL $5.75/BF
$.90 to $1.00 a board foot to straightline?
That's effing criminal!
Lee
Unfortunately that is quite a normal price to SL. I don't know of anyone in their right mind that would ever get that done. On top of being stupid expensive for what it is, think of all the potential waste on a long board. Crazy.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
im near Ottawa and have bought cherry kd from a mill that was already milled 4 sides for $11 plus taxes
on the other hand i bought 1000 bd ft from a small sawyer in west quebec for $3.25 abf in that case the wood was rough cut 1" x various widths from 6 to 10" & all came from just 2 30" trees
also i got 500 bdf of hard maple @ $2.25 abf
500 bf of birch @ 1.80 abf
all the above was air dried at least 1 year and picked up at mill plus i paid cash no receipt or taxes
if you can find a small sawyer you can usually do pretty good price wise
I am currently sitting on about 2500 bd ft of various hardwoods waiting for insperation to kick in and give me a goal to aim for ;.)
I live about 30 miles from Detroit. I buy rough-sawn wood from an excellent supplier. This does not mean it is cheap.
As I recall I paid about $7.50 /bf for 8/4 cherry up to 10" wide.
About $3.50 for poplar, same dimensions.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Got to some of the mail-order sites (West Penn Hardwoods, Hearne Hardwoods, etc.) to get an idea of typical pricing.
You should have access to some local hardwoods, too. Bigleaf maple, Pacific madrone, and various species of birch and alder all grow in the western portions of the Great White North.
And don't overlook the softwoods. Alaska yellow-cedar is one of my all-time favorite woods.
-Steve
I checked those sites and it looks generally like I'm paying anywhere from 20-50% more than the prices they have posted. Also it seems that the largest price differences are in the more common hardwoods and the smaller price differences are toward the specialty end of things.
I think it's a tradeoff. We have the access to the common hardwoods and you the Sitka Spruce, Doug Fir, Alaskan Cedar, Port Orford, Pacific Yew etc. We pay a premium for that stuff if we can get it. BTW I've been in several coniferous forests out west and there are hardwoods that grow in there. They're just not commercially harvested all the time but I wonder if you snoop around you could find some regional stuff not readily available anywhere else.
I live in the Lexington KY area. I buy from a local mill. All the prices listed here are for rough cut lumber, not surfaced, kiln dried, 4/4, FAS/1F. As you go down in grade, the prices drop considerably.
Red oak: $2.40 bf
White oak: $2.40 bf
Poplar: $1.90 bf
Cherry: $3.90 bf
Walnut: $2.90 bf
Ash: $2.25 bf
Hard maple: $2.90 bf
Curly maple: $4.20 bf
They sell many other domestic species, I am not going to list them all. They sell up to 8/4 or 10/4 for some species.
I can buy the same in 4' shorts for:
Red oak: $1.50 bf
White oak: $1.50 bf
Poplar: $.80 bf
Cherry: $2.00 bf
Walnut: $1.75 bf
Ash: $1.25 bf
Hard maple: $1.35 bf
Curly maple: not available
Hope this helps.
Jeff
Last time I bought wood I paid (bf prices):
Cherry - $.65
Walnut - $.20
Hard Maple - $.25
softwood mix - $.10
Clear white pine 12+ wide - $1.40 (niceest pine I've ever seen 8' with no knots and straight grain)
I never have paid more than $2.00 bf for wood. I never buy wood narrower than 9". I always buy wood green.
I usullay buy my wood from lumber auctions. Hardwood prices are really low right now.
Talma,
How do you find lumber auctions? I googled for lumber auctions in Wisconsin and got a bunch of nothing.
Does anyone out their know of any around southern Wi.?
Rob
I ask the guys at the mills for auction days and times. But be prepared the quantities are usually large bundles. If your willing to buy 20k bf of cherry you can buy it for about $.25 a bf. green, or about $1.00 bf kiln dried. There are always some odd lots, which usually seem to be the nicer wood. but they are small, and most of the time the bigger guys don't want to deal with a small lot. Those are the lots I buy. If you can get a group of friends together willing to buy 5k of wood you'll get some good buys.
Another good source are the Amish or Menonites, they always have good prices.
If you look on some of the hardwood boards you'll see that the lumber industry is hurting right now and prices are real low. Probably due to the fact new home construction is way down. Log prices are still good on the west coast since China is buying the logs. They mill them and dry the boards on ships while crossing the ocean, build stuff with the wood and the same ship carries the furniture back, repeat.
I bumped into a sawyer I know who said his business is about half what it was a year ago, and he mentioned he had some nice wood for a steal if I was interested. I have at least 5000 bf at my house and my parents, and just don't have room for more. So I'm going to check out the wood this weekend. (Always rember the 300% rule - if you think about building something, buy the wood for it, and 300% more. Actually building the project is optional.)
So if your looking for wood talk to the guys that are milling the logs, they are probably looking for customers. You always get first pick at the mills. I have cherry up to 20" wide, walnut up to 36" wide, by the time the wood gets to the hardwood store it has been picked over 10 times. Your always getting the left overs, alot of mills will let you buy the log and have it milled your way.
I have heard this rumor a few times, but I don't believe it. It is hard to imagine having the room and equipment to move logs around on deck, then stacking and stickering lumber on deck of a ship, then letting it be idle while transporting finished goods back. Think about it.Edit;; I forgot to copy and paste this line; China is buying the logs. They mill them and dry the boards on ships while crossing the ocean, build stuff with the wood and the same ship carries the furniture back, repeat.
Edited 3/7/2008 9:49 am by KeithNewton
At the very least, there is absolutely no question that the finished stuff comes back in containers. Except for a few outsized things (like cars), everything from the Far East is shipped in containers.
-Steve
Actually where I first saw it was on this forum. There were pictures and everything.
They take the logs, and hook them together and let them float in the ocean. They have portable mills on the deck, and a crane lifting the logs one at a time onto the ship. The sawdust and bark go right in the ocean, There are kilns on board and the wood is dry by the time it hits there docks.
I don't think they could do this in rough weather, but it can't rain everyday!
Talma,
Are we going to have to do an intervention? <grin> I mean 5000 bd.ft. is seriously close to an addiction.
Hello my name is Frenchy and I'm a woodaholic
frenchy.<!----><!----><!---->
I live in <!----><!----><!---->Minnetonka<!----><!----> behind the Burwell house. I’m looking for quarter sawn common ash. Not white ash.<!----><!---->
Where do you buy such large quantities?<!----><!---->
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sleepydad,
Johnson logging in Cannon falls. Take Hwy 52 south towards Rochester just south of Cannon falls on the west side of the highway is Johnson logging.. Dan run's it now, Connie the former owner is supposedly retired but he's the hardest working retired guy I've met.
Typically they don't have a big market for ash so you'll need to call them before hand so they can have some on hand when you get there.. Oh there is plenty of ash around but the prices are so low that the trees aren't cut down down because they can't make money..
Decent family, more than fair, tell them I said hello..
ya I know that's the problem with ash. I guess people don't like it like I do.
thanks somebody else recomended them.
I will have to give them a call and see.
I guess people don't like it like I do.
I love it and use it all the time. However around here, all I can get is white ash and it is all flat cut. NO WOOD is inexpensive here in the Chicago area. A horrible area to buy hardwoods!
I cut some black ash from an ash swamp in northern <!----><!----><!---->Minnesota<!----><!---->. Really cool stuff. Mostly quarter and rift sawn. Made some doors and paneling for my basement. I still know a guy who drives a log hauler in <!----><!---->Duluth<!----><!---->. He would deliver an entire semi load for 1K. it would take him the entire winter but he eventually would fill the order.
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I don’t live in <!----><!---->Duluth<!----><!----> anymore so it’s tough getting that kind of stuff; but I could still do it. It’s pretty wild stuff some people really like it some can’t deal with the crazy look.
Thanks for the Pictures.. I for one use any 'stick' I have (within reason in my mind) I make it and if they do not like it SHAME on them!
I do however have this 'thing' about anything that is not...not semetrical or WAY out of form.. I do not think grain of woods do that.. OK sometimes!
sleepydad,
No they aren't wood bigots or anything.. the problem is the green ash borer has made a real surplus of the ash market. All markets are flooded with ash and the price is in the toilet because of it.. So much so that they can get perfect logs that are easily accessable for free they still can't make a profit sawing it!
So why not let it stand and maybe the borer won't reach Minnesota before they solve the problem..
Ash is a unique wood,, strong but without the problems of white oak.. Vintage car bodies used to be formed around it because of it's strength especially in curved pieces.
If I wanted to build a timberframe home now I would use ash because of it's strength, ease of working with it, (it doesn't rust steel like white oak does) so you could nail it or lag bolt it without buying expensive fastners. It's easy to nail when green and doesn't shrink as much as oak does as it dries.. plus it tends to come from tall straight big trees. But mainly I'd use Ash because it's so cheap right now that you could build a timberframe for 1/4 of the price of oak.
All of the wood you'd need to build a decent sized home including the flooring could be purchased for $1000.00
because of it's strength especially in curved pieces. Yep.. Made more than a few Bows Using laminated Ash and Hickory!
Ya but I still like it and it's so abundant nobody wants it.
in Mich they can't give it away.
sleepydad,
It was the same way with Elm when dutch elm disease came through..
They would knock down these giant old elms and bulldoze them into a pile and toss fuel oil on to get them started.
You couldn't give away elm.. Eventually my sawmill found a market in Holland and shipped container after container of elm to Holland.. (which is wildly ironic considering it was Dutch elm disease)
Ha that's funny. I cut 500 bf of red elm, a couple of years ago. Beautiful wood loved it. <!----><!----><!---->
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40604.55 IMG_3936_small.JPG<!----><!---->
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That’s all red elm on the walls. It moves a lot. I build a couple of doors out of it and the panels move like crazy. But it’s still beautiful wood. I can't find it anymore?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Also made our family room floor out of it. It’s soft and dents a lot but we still like it.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
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sleepydad,
Wow! you are a brave one.. I personally won't go near Elm on a bet.. It's been known to attack me in my sleep and shove splinters into painfull places which require immediate extraction.. failure to do so will lead to gangrene and probable amputation of the offending limb..
In addition it decays at the mere suggestion of moisture and as you pounted out moves around like a drunken hootchie cootchie dancer..
True it is a pretty wood but then so are many women and the wrong ones can be nearly as deadly as elm <big grin>
PS your work is magnificent!
Edited 3/31/2008 2:47 pm ET by frenchy
some sort of trip frechy?
I did not know red eml was a toxic flesh eating sort of wood. I'll be carefull next time.
sleepydad,
Please note the word <Grin> (another words an attempt at humor which apparently missed it's mark)..
no matter how good looking she is there is some guy some place who is sick and tiered of putting up with her sh!t
Cormaceby
Prices change on a regular basis. Lately they've been in the toilet. The best source for price information is HardwoodMarketReport out of Memphis Tennessee telephone #901-767-7534 http://www.hmr.comm
I've found copies of that weekly newsletter in virtually every sawmill I am willing to work with.
Those who don't use that newsleter to price out their wood wind up losing customers or high volume customers.
You don't need a great deal of formal training to visually sort the various grades of wood If you watch a certified grader mark boards according to grade you note a fair degree of flexibility between say grade #1 common & and Number 2A common or some FAS which you'd think really shouldn't be rated that high but there is a certain amount of tolerance allowed in selection of wood..
Ye gawds, I have read through to post 13 and it makes me ill. The last time I bought cherry, (five quarter) it was $9.75/BF. And they implied that they were doing me a favor to boot.
I live near Vancouver, BC
Regards
Peter(feeling really ripped off)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Peter,
Older Issue lists cherry at 2.97 a bd.ft. FAS for 5/4 (Appalaician) about a dollar more for Northern states..
Quick phone call yielded the prices are now down 50 cents or more (he was away from the desk)
Seems to be a Canadian thing. In S.W. Ontario I pay $7 for 4/4 cherry, and $10 for 6/4. Hard white maple is $5 and $6. Prices never seem to go any way but up.
Jim
YES!!!!!!!! My feelings exactly. Peter what supplier are you buying from? PJ. White? Reimer Hardwoods? Or do you go to a smaller mill? I can't remember what the price was last time I bought cherry, but I just picked up 9-bf of walnut for $100, which lead me to start this thread. Also, for anyone out there, In B.C. we have a $0.40/bf milling fee on any fully or partially surfaced stock. Does this apply south of the border? Or in the rest of Canada?
I WAS at Reimer but am tired of being treated like s*it there.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Yeah, I'm in the okanagan, Reimer is the only supplier of any quantity I've found here.
Do they treat you OK there? Out here the fact that my order is usually only $600-800 means that I am looked down at as an insignificant piece of whatever. There is no picking their 5/4 cherry so it is a situation that I give my approximate requirements (8-10 footers, 5 to 8 inches wide etc), one of the chaps disappears for over 20 minutes and comes back out with those boards. Then usually I have to reject a few of them (twisted, cupped and so on) to their very obvious displeasure and off they go for another 10 minutes. You get the picture. For some reason I am "allowed" to pick the 4/4 stuff. The whole experience leaves me with a real sour taste.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
that sounds like a completely different setup to the Reimer here. I tell them what I'm looking for, they print up a warehouse slip, then I'm allowed to go into the warehouse and pick through what I want for as long as I want!
I can certainly see why you got fed up with that system. It sounds like since your orders weren't huge they felt they could dump all their leftovers on you. I'm glad I don't have to put up with that same system, because Reimer is the only hardwood dealer in the area!
I, too, cannot believe the prices of hardwood. I thought that it was just my ignorance, as I haven't bought a piece of hardwood lumber from a store for years. If you go to Windsor Plywood, you'll find maple to be one of the more expensive woods while Purpleheart is dirt cheap! Figure that one out!
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Recently, I bought some 4/4 walnut, maple and hickory from Groff and Groff near Lancaster, PA. All of their prices are listed on the website:
http://www.groffslumber.com/Price_List/body_price_list.html
I paid $4.25 per bf for the hard maple (average quality), $5.25 for the walnut (slightly figured) and $3.00 per bf the hickory (very clear).
stuck in hardwood-less western Canada.
NOW if just a bit warmer I'd move there!
Only place I have been in Canada was Toronto.. Is this really Canada?
MANY times there and a few other places further north BUT I got so cold! Even in summer time!
I have flown to China several times.. Always over Canada and over the North Pole? I think,, I was ALWAYS amazed by ALL those trees! Makes the rain forest look sick! I think ALL of the Earth's Oxygen comes from Canada!
Thank God for soft woods!
Yeah, we do have a lot of trees. So many in fact, that I often have to log some to find a place for my igloo. Speaking of my igloo and the temperature, It gets so warm here sometimes in the summer that I have to put down buckets to catch the drips.
But on a more serious note, clearly you've been to the wrong part of Canada in the summer. Were I live it gets over 105degrees in summer, which speaking of trees, makes the pines smell excellent!
Give Dave Horn a call at Allwood custom saw , phone 604 826 6155, he is located in Mission.
I was there last week ,he has lots of nice western maple, cherry and I think you will find the prices agreeable.
Hope this helps
Keith
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