I’m a new woodworker and am contemplating purchasing my first table saw. I do most of my woodworking in my garage so I think I would like to get a portable saw so that it can be stored away when I am not using it. Also, I would like to stay under $800 if it’s possible to get a good quality saw. While I’m somewhat new to woodworking, I still want a quality saw that I can use for several years before wanting/needing an upgrade. Does anyone have a suggestion on which tables saws I should consider? Also, I have read a lot about riving knives which seem like a good idea. Are there any portable saws that feature a riving knife? Should I wait for next year’s models which may feature a riving knife?<!—-><!—-> <!—->
Thanks in advance for any recommendations.<!—-> <!—->
Replies
Welcome, Daniel!
How much room do you have in your garage with your car(s) parked in it? Park the cars inside and measure to see what sort of room you have remaining and let that be a big factor in your selection. (Many serious woodworkers crave a "cabinet" or "hybrid" saw over a "contractor" type table saw. All may be had with mobile bases for rolling to and fro).
Secondly, what do you presently do in woodworking and what are your goals? Consider what other equipment you may need to accomplish your goals and measure for those. (Several people in this forum have elected to use a band saw in place of a table saw).
Do you have a bench? What power tools do you have now? Hand tools?
Many folks have gone to great lengths to have a "garage" by night and a "shop" by day (or vice versa) and have added photos here. You will be adding to that list soon enough!
Best wishes, brother!
Thanks for all the input! From what I gather, I have a little more to consider than I originally thought. After reading a lot of the replies I'm beginning to think that I don't necessarily want a benchtop saw because it sounds like they lack power and don't produce as nice of a cut as other table saws. <!----><!----><!---->
Just to answer some questions, I have an area of 14' X 8' left over with the cars parked in the garage and all of the other items that I store in there. I realize that's plenty of room for a table saw, but I also want to be able to use as much of that space for other things as I can. I don't really have any goals in woodworking. I know that sounds bad, but I kind of just take things in stride and if the wife wants a new cabinet I try and make her the nicest cabinet I'm capable of with the tools I have. I have most of the basic woodworking tools (hand plane, chisels, hand drill, jigsaw), but nothing too advanced or large (bandsaw, planer). I also have a work bench that I build a while back. <!----><!---->
Some people have mentioned using a band saw instead of a table saw. What are the benefits of a band saw over a table saw? Also are the cut qualities of both similar, or can you expect a better cut from one?<!----><!---->
Thanks again.<!----><!---->
Obviously a BS has the advantage in cutting curves. It also tends to be safer than a TS, takes up less space, and tends to be able to cut thicker wood, but it's worth noting that the best cut from a BS doesn't compare with how clean the cut is with even a modest TS. The edges of a BS cut are much more jagged and need to be smoothed with a handplane, jointer or planer, etc.
Edited 11/15/2008 8:16 am ET by Knotscott
All in all, a band saw is probably more versatile than a table saw as you can resaw lumber with it as well as rip and crosscut. Plus, the footprint of a band saw is generally much smaller than a tables saw, so it occupies less space. If you have any curves to cut, a bandsaw works way better than a table saw.
If you are going to be doing a lot of straight cuts and no curves, a table saw shines. The table on a cabinet saw is large enough to support some pretty big stock while a bandsaw will need some infeed and outfeed support.
Someone has rightly suggested that you check Craig's list or e-bay (buyer beware) as you can often find good quality stuff at a good price. Grizzly, Steel City (and some others) offer pretty good deals as well.
http://www.grizzly.com/
http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/
You may want to check out some of the other posts on this site to get a feel for who endorses what sort of equipment.
What's this about cars in the garage. Cars do best outside where they belong.
My Young Bride's van hasn't seen the inside of the garage ever, but some folks are quite as understanding.
Just a check--I'm not receiving my e-mail notofications
Hi Daniel - The Bosch 4000 has a riving knife, but there are a bunch of advantages if you could find a way to work with a full size cast iron saw on a mobile base instead of going with a portable. You're far more likely to outgrow a portable, and they give up alot of mass (stability), table surface area (especially in front of the blade), are alot louder, and don't offer the same long term reliability.
Grizzly's new G0661 is listed as a contractor saw but that has a riving knife and an internally mounted motor....which basically describes a hybrid saw by my definitions. It's a tick over budget at $821.50 to your door.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/g0661
Please describe the difference between the mobile saw and the full size saw on a mobile base.
The attachments show the four types of table saws. Although the Bosch can be folded up and put into a corner, the other three can all be fitted with rolling bases (usually with locking casters) that allow the saws to be rolled around your shop at will.
Daniel,
Welcome! As you may know, there are four basic types of table saws today: bench top, contractor, hybrid, and cabinet saws.
Benchtop saws are the most portable. Most come with a folding stand of some sort and can be carried with relative ease. These saws are ideal for jobsites because they are easy to transport but are good for a shop too. The tables are usually cast iron and may have stamped steel, aluminum, or cast iron wings (side tables). The fences usually have a maximum ripping capacity of about 25". Benchtop saws tend to lack the table surface and power sometimes required when cutting large sheets of plywood or ripping thicker lumber. Because they are light, they are less stable - more tipsy than bigger saws. The universal motors (same as a circular saw) are loud and connected directly to the motor. Dust collection on the better benchtop saws is usually excellent. If you plan to use a dado head on your saw, check the length of the arbor. Bosch's saw seems to be the favourite, followed by the DeWalt. The General is relatively new to the market and looks like a contractor saw made into a benchtop.
Contractor saws are the next step up. They come with a non-folding metal base and have a bigger table surface, usually cast iron. These saws feature a bigger motor with capacitors (1 or 2). The motor hangs out the back of the saw and is connected to the arbor with a single belt. The fences on contractor saws are a big step up from a benchtop - beefier and with greater ripping capacities. To help move these saws around, you'll want a mobile base. It takes atleast two people to lift one. Dust collection is not great with a contractor saw. Grizzly offers quality at a great price.
Cabinet saws are the pinnacle of table saws. They often boast 3 or 5HP motors which are tucked away in the cabinet base. A series of belts connects the motor to the arbor, reducing vibration. Coupled with the mass of these saws, they are very quiet. Dust collection is excellent because of the closed cabinet. The fence systems are the same as contractor saws and you will need a mobile base to move one of these saws. The trunnions which hold the saw arbor are mounted to the base, rather than the bottom of the table, making blade-table alignment much simpler.
A hybrid is basically a cabinet saw with a smaller contractor saw motor.
Depending on your expected use, you can decide which level of saw suits your needs best. For light duty use, a benchtop saw may be all you need. But if you intend to cut a lot of thick lumber (hardwoods especially) and plywood with the table saw, have a good look at a contractor or cabinet saw.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"Cabinet saws are the pinnacle of table saws."
Oh really.
Try to tell that to people who own Altendorf, Martin, SCMI, or Holz-Her... or even Felder.
I always considered them cabinet saws. Are they not?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,They seem to get called "panel saws" these days, presumably because their large sliding table and extensions to the back and right of the blade enable them to cut whole shheets of man-made boards. Of course, such beasts also get called cabinet saws in Europe.I suppose Frank is mentioning that there is a significant difference between the standard American cabinet saw (i.e. a Unisaw style thing) and one of those European-style panel saws.Nomenclature - always a difficult subject.:-)Lataxe, who has a small panel saw or possibly a large cabinet saw.
Sir Lataxe;
Sorry to be so long in replying but my knots time has been curtailed lately and your posts deserve more time and thought than the tech. answers that can be banged out quickly.
I was hoping to hear from Frank the reasoning behind his post. You are certainly correct that nomenclature can be a fickle mistress dependent as it is on language, culture and geography.
My personal prejudice has been that cabinet saws are stationary tools with heavier trunnions, induction motors and different mounts than portable (tabletop) or contractors saws. I had always included sliding table saws among the cabinet saws.
My personal preference for cutting sheet goods is the vertical panel saw, even with the nearly inevitable gain of mass due to age I am loathe to handle sheets horizontally and much prefer to slide them upright into the saw.
I can see many advantages and nearly no downside to the euro style sliding table saw. It is certainly far more convineient for cutting sheet goods than the Unisaw style saw.
I still think that at least for the type of work I do that a good compound miter saw is better at crosscutting. Even there the Europeans are on top of the game with some extremely accurate induction motored CMS made by the likes of Omga and others.
Used with an appropriate guard, splitter and fence the Unisaw and others of it's ilk are a very cost effective way of ripping lumber.
I still consider horizontal panel saws of the makes that Frank mentioned cabinet saws, however I would not consider the portable sliding table saws such as the Ryobi among others cabinet saws merely because of their sliding tables.
Always rewarding to correspond with you...
Don
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don (and ALL)The taxonomy of sawing machines! - the rascals have evolved all over the place. :-)The saw I have is typical of those used by hobbyists and some small-scale professionals. Here is the British distributer's blurb on their website that describes the saw I have (Scheppach TS2500c):http://www.nmauk.com/scheppach/scheppach.htmlI have the longer arm for the sliding carriage so the machine will handle a whole sheet of pywood (2400mm X 1200mm) sideways on (i.e. it has 1400mm capacity on on the sliding table's crosscut fence in front of the blade). The whole cross cut cariage and fence is easily dismounted or moved fore/aft via 4 large wing nuts.The right hand table folds down but when extended gives 1100mm ripping capcity from the right of the blade to the fence. It takes 5 seconds to pull this table up or lower it again.The fences are accurate to 0.1mm via their micro-adjusts. The whole machine has lots of adusters to enable it to be set up to be extremely accurate. Once set, they stay there. The engineering is high quality German.The foorprint in my very crowded shed is small and yet the cutting capacities are large. No chopsaw or radial arm saw needed. The whole caboodle cost me £1600, which included 4 blades of various teeth types, not to mention the Government's 17.5% sales tax.*****There is ####better-specified (!) range that is very similar but has a beefed-up parts and motors, including a sliding carriage of the Felder type (carriage runs right next to the blade and has a heavy outrigger arm for crosscutting huge planks). This costs about twice as much. In both ranges of machines there are models of various capacities, from a 60mm depth of cut to 104mm; 2.5hp to around 6hp or more. There are both single phase and 3-phase models. Cheapest is well under £1000 but you can spend £3000 or more.*****Scheppach is just one of several manufacturers in this market at these price points and capacities. And yet only the most expensive end of these machine types (Felders, Knapps and similar) seem to be sold in the USA. I would have thought there is a big hobbyist market for machines like my Scheppach. When we take off the "rip-off Britain" excessive profit and the large British sales tax, I suspect a machine like mine would sell for well under $3000 in the US, inclusive of the sliding carriage, extension tables et al.What keeps the Scheppachs out of the US market, one wonders?****As to vertical panel saws - the local sheet-goods seller has a fine one and it certainly is faster and safer to use than a sliding table panel/cabinet saw. But of course, it only cuts sheet goods......no ripping or cross cutting of the nice planks.Lataxe
Sir Lataxe;
You are quite correct on the limitations of the vertical panel saw.
I am curious, how does your table saw do on compound miters of say 2 meters length such as would be required on crown moulding for a mantel?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,The crosscut fence on that sliding table of mine extends to only 1500mm; although one can buy a longer one extending to 2000mm. However, I wouldn't use it to make a compound cut on a piece that was long, heavy and awkwardly shaped (such as crown moulding) as there's insufficient support to keep the table from dipping a degree or two with such a long load on it. I would be concerned as well about the stability of such a complex-shaped piece on the sliding table.I do cut long lengths of lighter square-sectioned pieces - up to 2000mm or a bit less - for tall items; parts like the stiles of a tall cabinet. In this case I can't use the stop on the crosscut fence as the piece sticks out beyond the fence end. I also have to move the saw to make enough room without the piece ctching it's end on the shed wall. Such pieces can also be mitre cut as the crosscut fence rotates on the sliding table to +/-46 degrees (i.e. one may cut a mitre either way). I've never personally had occasion to cut a compound mitre with both the fence and the blade at 45 degrees or similar angles with a long piece. I have cut quite a few shorter ones - up to 1200mm. There is no table sag with such lengths; and I can use the stop on the crosscut fence to ensure the workpiece can't move laterally. Of course, I don't make large build-ins that typically need such long lengths of pediment or coving.....I've also cut 2000mm long and heavy planks for dining tables, using a BB roller stand to support the end haging out from the sliding table. But this is not an ideal situation, although it does work. It doesn't feel safe enough to me, though, with that long lever out there, so I tend to clamp such a piece to the fence and the table, which isn't necessary with shorter parts.The IXES version of my saw does have a much beefier sliding carriage with a large outrigger support. This would easily cope with the kind of compound cuts you mention on longer pieces. That IXES version also has built-in clamps on the table and the crosscut fence. However, this is quite a few dollars more, as the saying has it. :-)***So, if I was a kitchen fitter or a maker of large build-ins, a chopsaw would be needed. Even an IXES couldn't sensibly cut lengths a lot over 2000mm. So far, no one's asked me for such a piece. (Phew)!Lataxe
Lataxe,"What keeps the Scheppachs out of the US market, one wonders?"Marketing decisions by Scheppach.Probably based on the accurate analysis that buyers in the US simply can't be persuaded to look at anything other than the kind of thing that's been sold here for almost a century.I can only think that manufacturers such as Felder, MinMax, Knapp, etc., simply had the financial resources to stay in a limited sales situation. Scheppach may simply not have the deep pockets to do that, despite the obvious desirability of their equipment.I could be very wrong, but I think a lot of this IS starting to change now. I think a good part of the change has been stimulated (almost paradoxically) by the SawStop machine. NOT for its unique blade-braking mechanism, but because it has been widely recognized as a very high quality implementation of the "typical US cabinet saw." MUCH higher fit and finish than the competition. AND because it came out with a riving knife.It's a machine that can't be ignored. And what didn't get ignored was the riving knife. (No one could copy the blade-stopping mechanism) Underwriters Labs has decreed that all saws shall have one or risk not getting a UL seal of approval. So now, the incredible inertia against change has been jabbed and change is actually happening.It's the riving knife situation that has now raised awareness here of European equipment and all their other capabilities.Rich
Rich,I think we've discussed the phenomena you describe more than once in Knots. It really is a puzzle to me why a nation that is so innovative and can-do has these strange pockets of ultra-conservatism about the strangest things. I've no doubt that just down the road from places like NASA and silicon valley, there are any number of woodworkers huddled in their shops with a unisaw clone muttering about those darn new-fangled thangs from overseeas. :-)It would be a revelation, I think, to the average Unisaw owner to use a typical European-style saw like that Scheppach of mine.Of course, I am annoyed that Mr Scheppach has still not brought out a saw with the sawstop mechanism in it. I would buy one like a shot, as even the best-designed Scheppach (riving knife, provision for fence hold-downs & featherboards, ban on dado-cutters and a blade that comes to rest 2 seconds after it's switched of) can still cut one's finger off in a moment of stupidity. And as I approch 60 I notice a certain increase in such moments.Lataxe
Lataxe,In some places, the objection to anything "new," anything foreign, any change, is so violent and negative as to be astounding. And really frightening."Can Do." Yeah. When did we stop being that guy?But it's interesting how change sometimes does come about. Now, this country is going to have to become, once again, an innovative force in superior design and efficient manufacturing of all kinds. Including the kind of thing we're talking about. It can. And I'm sure it will. But, if for some reason it doesn't, I don't want to even contemplate the consequences.Rich
I agree with you and cannot understand why a cabinet saw such as the Unisaw, designed in the 1930's is so highly regarded here. One think that I found so frustrating with the Unisaw was that the blade is so far back on the table. It would be challenging to try and retrieve what you just cut from falling on the floor. I am glad I never lost any precious body parts doing that. I did find it a revelation to use a Euro slider as a Unisaw was my previous table saw. I think the best use for American style cabinet saws would be boat anchors.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
"I think the best use for American style cabinet saws would be boat anchors."I think I'll keep mine, thank you! It's a 5 HP Unisaw, Biese fence and splitter and good blades. It's a huge step up from my old Craftsman and it's as smooth as silk. I get a huge amount of satisfaction every time I use it, but I would never tell my buddies still using contractor saws that their iron was crap. I hope I'm not the only one. . .Ron
um,Boat anchors? That's a bit harsh.Rich
Ron, I felt the same way when I was using my Unisaw. Maybe some day you will get a Euro slider and then you can tell me how you would compare it to the Unisaw.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
"One think that I found so frustrating with the Unisaw was that the blade is so far back on the table. It would be challenging to try and retrieve what you just cut from falling on the floor"... Pacman
***
If you are ripping over a 4' (it is common for me to rip up to 10'-12')piece of stock on your slider... how does it not fall off the table without a rear extension. My uneducated guess would be a rear extension on both a Uni-saw and slider would be a wise decision. And taking a second to walk around one end of the saw to retrieve it would be another wise move.
***
"I think the best use for American style cabinet saws would be boat anchors"... Pacman
***
Jerry... As an amateur I have built a bed.. a 6 drawer and 5 drawer chest.. a TV stand.. an entertainment center.. a shoe rack and just started a computer desk with an American style cabinet saw since last November. I have also ripped over 6000 linear feet in preparation for surfacing in exchange for cash. And at no point did I consider myself in peril of having my hands or fingers chopped off because they well... weren't.
I doubt I could have accomplished that with a "boat anchor".
I'm glad you are enjoying your slider...
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 11/17/2008 10:09 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge, my projects are much smaller than yours. If I ripped a long piece on the Unisaw I used a roller stand.
If I use the rip fence on the slider I have plenty of room on the table to support the piece. On the Hammer their is 19" after the piece clears the blade, the saw top depth is 37 1/2". On the Unisaw I had about 6" after the piece clears the blade, the saw top depth is 27". When you are building bigger projects your hands a farther away from the blade and you have less chance for an accident. I am working on some 4 1/2" clock/music boxes and their is not much room for error. I would not want to make the cuts on a cabinet saw that I can do very safely on the slider.
Boat anchor was somewhat harsh. I would just like to see some innovation of American table saws. Delta just came out with a new Unisaw. They added a riving knife, up fronts controls and a nice drawer, big deal. I just wish that consumers would stop buying these repackaged saws using 1930's technology. Maybe US manufactures would become more innovative.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
"I am annoyed that Mr Scheppach has still not brought out a saw with the sawstop mechanism in it. I would buy one like a shot, as even the best-designed Scheppach (riving knife, provision for fence hold-downs & featherboards, ban on dado-cutters and a blade that comes to rest 2 seconds after it's switched of) can still cut one's finger off in a moment of stupidity."I assume the answer has something to do with SawStop's asking too much for a license to use the idea. Which if true is stupid, because then no one benefits. If they charge a reasonable license fee, they get to make money, the licensee gets to make money and the buyer benefits. If they're greedy, no licenses get sold.But I have to repeat something I've said here before. These saws are far too dangerous to use as we do, even with all the safety devices and practices that exist in places like Europe, Australia, New Zealand.It's much, much too dangerous to put one's hands as close to that blade as we do in many of the operations that are common. And there is absolutely no reason to do so. We do it out of habit. There is nothing to stop the European wood worker from ripping, using the rip fence as is the only method on a Unisaw, pushing the work through the blade, hands close to the thing, courting danger all the time. The alternative, clamping the work to the slider, and pushing that, with hands literally a foot, if not feet from the blade completely removes the risk. In fact, the motor should not be able to start, unless the hands are holding a "dead man's" switch on the slider.I'm not kidding.Yes, I know such a suggestion would be drowned out in boos, and if implemented, would be defeated by 90% of users. Why? Habit. And Machismo. And the slight slowdown in work flow this would cause.But there are machines of comparable risk in industry whose operation is controlled in exactly such a way. Punch Presses, paper cutters, milling machines. They won't turn on unless the operator has BOTH hands on buttons far from the action. No one ever complains about those limitations. No one ever derides the practice as un-manly. No one defeats those fail-safes. In fact, to do so would result in negative reaction from management, labor and co-workers.On the other hand, at construction job-sites, carpenters routinely have the blade guards on their hand-held circular saws wired open and defeated, exposing the blade which is always set to full depth. Why? They're "too slow to use" if the guards have to be pushed back to start a cut. They are paid by the amount of work they can accomplish in a day. They sling them around like knap-sacks. I wonder how much work one can do after cutting through a femoral artery, or worse?Oh, well.Rich
Edited 11/16/2008 5:13 pm ET by Rich14
Rich,Machismo rules, eh? Until you cut your hand off.Sadly, the push to circumvent safety mechanisms to save tuppence also occurs in Britain. Not so long ago there was a scandal in Lancaster, 5 miles from where I live, after a new "trainee" had both her hands cut off at the wrist in a linoleum-making factory by the machine that cut the lino after a fll roll was wound. She was able to do so because the guarding mechanisms, that prevented access to the reloader until the winding motor was stopped/disconnected, had been disabled to speed the reloading of the new roll.....A couple of weeks ago the ladywife had a new kitchen installed. The bloke and his son who did the job were highly competant but got paid "per job" so were always in a hurry. They didn't bother with hearing, eye or dust protection, despite the scream of their circular saw and the dust & debris from the man-made boards involved. In a few years they'll be down at the hospital casualty ward with tinnitus and a bad cough, peering at the forms to fill in with their one "good" eye.People think wishfully. "I don't want a bad thing to happen to me so it won't" (despite the fact I am acting like a fool).Lataxe, a knowing fool who avoids wishing.
Frank,
I'd put those in their own class - something like sliding table saws. I'm talking table saw table saws. Comprendez?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
And yet..... do you know, tablesaws in Britain and Europe rarely come without some form of sliding carriage or at least the option to fit one that is made for the saw.I've always puzzled why American TS lack sliding cariages or some other means to cross-cut safely and accurately. This lack seems to be why y'all have to buy a dirty great chopsaw or build one of those gigantic plywood boxes to push about on yer Unisaw tops. Mad!Send for a Scheppach catalogue now, lads, and then buy yo'selves a proper saw. You know it makes sense.Lataxe
Lataxe,
A table saw is best suided for ripping. We on the west of the Atlantic use "miter saws" and "radial arm saws" for crosscutting. Besides, if I had a sliding table saw in my shop, there would be no room for me!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,"A table saw is best suided for ripping. We on the west of the Atlantic use "miter saws" and "radial arm saws" for crosscutting. Besides, if I had a sliding table saw in my shop, there would be no room for me!"Spend some time with a real sliding table saw and you won't want to use a "cabinet saw" again. It's a completely different orientation to the work. On an "American" table saw, the table to the right side of the blade is mainly where the work rests and material is pushed through, whether ripping or crosscutting. The saw and its extension tables usually "grow" to the right of the machine. Add an out-feed table to carry long pieces beyond the "back" of the machine and the "footprint" of a table saw can be VERY large. Larger than a full size sheet (4' x 8' and more). Yet getting large pieces on the saw to start the cut, before a good deal of the work is actually supported by the table(s) can be very awkward and dangerous.Interestingly, when most (right handed) folks add a cross cut sled, to a table saw, they tend to hold and push the work through to the LEFT of the blade, with the waste to the right. This is actually a MUCH more comfortable and safer way to work. The fact that ripping on a table saw is (usually) done to the right of the blade has nothing to do with common sense, just the fact that the rip fence got placed there a century ago, and like everything else about the table saw, manufacturers just copied practice, never wanting to innovate or improve.Which brings us to the sliding table saw. Do some ripping (sheets or lumber) with the stock clamped to the sliding table (which is, naturally to the LEFT of the blade), the waste dropping harmlessly away to the right of the blade, without a rip fence anywhere near the work, and, believe me, a light bulb will go on.The work is absolutely under control, clamped down. Hands on the table, NO where near the cutting action. Chance of kickback practically non-existent. You'll wonder why everyone doesn't do it this way.Of course, no one has to explain the precision of cross-cutting on a slider or the ease of putting a full-sized sheet on the table and outrigger, which almost effortlessly carries it through the cut.In 10 seconds, I can remove the "outrigger table from my slider, the telescoping support arm swings against the side of the machine, held there by a magnet. The footprint of the whole machine is smaller than a typical cabinet saw.Rich
Rich,
Sounds like in your mind, there isn't much use for a big table to the left. It sounds like you have a true sliding table saw, not a cabinet saw with a sliding table. Correct? On these saws, the sliding table runs right up to the blade if I'm not mistaken.
Right now, I am pondering a new table saw and am strongly considering the Sawstop. Do you think that I should consider buying a sliding table saw or adding a sliding table to my saw, considering my shop is only 10' wide? I hardly ever cut plywood on my saw, but that may change if I have the facilities to do so without great hassle. It sounds to me like the sliding table saw is great for big stock, but how it is with small pieces that are, say, pen blank size (6"x3/4x3/4)?
Is this kind of what your saw looks like?
View ImageChris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,The sliding table itself and the outrigger frame (the blue part jutting toward the viewer in your picture) IS the "table to the left" on a sliding table saw.I would not advise adding a slider to an existing cabinet saw. In that case, the slider is very far from the blade. Even on many "true" sliding table saws, the edge of the sliding table can be an inch or so away from the blade. My saw is a Hammer model, made by Felder. On all Hammer and Felder machines the slider comes very close to the blade - about 1/8". This is a big advantage. There is essentially no zero clearance insert, but there can be. These saws have a small scoring blade under the table in front of the main blade, rotating in the opposite direction. This is set to score a line a fraction of a millimeter into the underside of sheet goods (or solid wood) before the stock is cut by the main blade, completely preventing tear-out on the underside. (The scoring blade is an option, and when installed can be used, or not, depending on the need.)You can see my saw at http://www.felderusa.com. The site seems to be down right now. When you can get on, click on "Hammer" on the scrolling banner at the top of the screen, then on the B3 saw/shaper. I have the "Comfort" configuration of that saw, which means it has a 78" slider and is dado head-ready (many European saws deliberately cannot accept a dado head). Of course, it only takes a special Felder dado head which is actually an adjustable molding cutter designed for the saw arbor.You can get a DVD from Felder, demonstrating their combination Hammer C3-31 which is a saw/shaper/joiner/thickness planer and optional horizontal slot mortising machine. The slider is shorter than the B3 Comfort but the demo shows everything these machines can do.BTW, these saws, as most Euro saws, have motor brake systems that stop the machine within a few seconds of power-off. THAT is very nice!, and a great safety feature. No "American" saws do that.I think the SawStop is an excellent machine. Its fit and finish are top of the line. It was unique among machine sold here for its stopping mechanism and riving knife. Other brands are now, finally, fitting their machines with a riving knife. If you prefer a traditional cabinet saw, that machine is a winner.Yes, the Hammer machines can do exceedingly fine work, as well as handle huge sheets or lumber. They are precision machines, more like laboratory instruments than shop equipment.I waited a long time to be able to afford this equipment and I'm very fortunate to have been able to get it. It's really not hype to say once you have used a true sliding table saw, you wont want to use an "ordinary saw." But there are some very different opinions from people who have used Unisaw type equipment all their lives.Only you can decide. Get the Hammer DVD (and their catalog). You'll be entertained, to say the least. But don't blame me if you start drooling!Rich
Edited 11/15/2008 4:52 pm ET by Rich14
Rich,
I have used a sliding table saw once in high school. I remember the sliding table and the scoring blade. I also remember that it was HUGE.
I will look at the Hammer machines when their site gets running again. Do you have a ball park idea of what your saw costs nowadays? The Lagunas cost around $5000. That's about $1500 more than a Sawstop. Having a scoring blade seems to serve the same purpose as a zero-clearance throat plate in most cases - providing a clean cut. When ripping narrow stock (say, 1/2" square by 12"), you'd use the rip fence, right? Is there much of a hole to the right of the blade that stock could get hung up on?
From what I understand, wide rip cuts are done with the sliding table and narrow rip cuts are done with the fence (to the right of the blade?) just like on an American saw. Does this mean that having a 30" or 50" capacity fence is superfluous?
I get the feeling that mobile bases won't do much good for these saws unless I use a car chassis.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,Some of the Industrial Felder machines and their counterparts of other manufacturers ARE huge. On the other hand, The Hammer K3 Basic sliding table saw has a TINY footprint. And even the 4-function C3-31 combo machine is barely larger. But they PERFORM huge. Get the catalog, they are pictured with a worker standing next to them, clearly illustrating their size.My machine is both a saw and a rear-tilting shaper. Each unit has a 4 hp motor (very conservatively rated). I believe this combo is about $7000. I don't know what the saw unit alone costs, but it is proportionately less. There's quite a range of configurations and prices. You get what you pay for. These machines are much more expensive than typical cabinet saws in price alone. But they are a bargain considering their design and performance.The saw has a right-of blade rip fence "just like" a cabinet saw. The style of the fence is very similar to the Unifence sold here. It flips from a high to a low configuration and can be slid back and forth in the direction of wood travel. The standard of practice in Europe, Australia, New Zealand is to set the rear end of the fence to just before the front teeth of the blade. This configuration is often referred to as a "short" fence. The wood can never be trapped between the fence and the blade. Warping of the wood during ripping can never force the wood into the rising rear teeth of the blade by pushing off against the fence, greatly reducing the chance of kick back. Wood movement to the right of the blade simply expands into the empty space there.Most people, trained to use a "long" rip fence (the style of virtually ALL fences in use here) don't like a short fence. They complain that they don't think they can accurately feed the wood without guidance all the way past the blade. Those who have trained on a short fence have no trouble whatever, correctly explaining that there is no need to support the piece once it has gone past the front of the blade. The cut has already been made.I don't use the rip fence for ripping. I rip as I've previously described. The work is clamped to the slider. The rip fence is used as a "stop block" (set well forward of the blade) to achieve dead-on accuracy for multiple same-size rips done on the sliding table. On the Hammer DVD you can see the rip fence being used this way as a material stop, but for cross-cutting. It works equally well in that function for ripping.There's no mobile "base" for the machine. It has an optional "mobility package" - two nylon wheels fit on an axle that passes through the frame close to the bottom. A separate lifting bar, with its own wheel fits into a bracket on the opposite side, making it very mobile. It is very easy to move and very stable while moving. No "lock-up" of swivel casters as invariably happens with so-called mobile bases. It can almost be turned around in its own foot print. My machine weighs 800 lbs. That kind of mobility is really impressive with that mass. Again, demonstrated on the DVD.Rich
Edited 11/15/2008 11:21 pm ET by Rich14
"I don't use the rip fence for ripping. I rip as I've previously described. The work is clamped to the slider. The rip fence is used as a "stop block" (set well forward of the blade) to achieve dead-on accuracy for multiple same-size rips done on the sliding table"... Rich
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I rip 10' - 12' foot lengths of stock on my American cabinet saw often.. how do I go about clamping them on the sliding table to be ripped if I sell the current saw to get the slider?
***
"The saw has a right-of blade rip fence "just like" a cabinet saw. The style of the fence is very similar to the Unifence sold here. It flips from a high to a low configuration and can be slid back and forth in the direction of wood travel".
"The wood can never be trapped between the fence and the blade. Warping of the wood during ripping can never force the wood into the rising rear teeth of the blade by pushing off against the fence, greatly reducing the chance of kick back. Wood movement to the right of the blade simply expands into the empty space there".. Rich
***
My American cabinet saw also has a half fence that is set just before the blade but can be moved forward or rear of the blade. It didn't come with one but... any American cabinet saw can have one installed in less than 15 minutes for under $20.
Regards...
Sarge..
I rip 10' - 12' foot lengths of stock on my American cabinet saw often.. how do I go about clamping them on the sliding table to be ripped if I sell the current saw to get the slider?
Sarge, the longest slider you can get on a Felder 700 is 126"/10.5'. Also, you would need 23' for full slider travel. I guess you are best served using your SC cabinet saw.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Hey Jerry... not trying to ambush you there as I know you love the slider and right-fully so. But I had a feeling the comment was made as more of a "rah-rah-sisk-boom-bah"... my team is #1 even though we don't play the other 100 major colleges in actual games.. etc. etc. You get the drift. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
I have used a slider and it's great especially for panels... but I do solid wood with no commercial cabinets and only do about 3 sheets a year to break a large panel down. In this case a panel saw would be the best choice if you did them everyday as a cabinet shop does and especially on the back.
The slider does have great cross-cut capabilities but I also cross-cut up to 14' with a SCMS with retractable extensions on in-coming rough stock.. I would not feel comfortable using the slider without additional extension to support the work there.
And I do a lot of long stock as mentioned and I really don't feel a slider is best suited for that. I do some narrow ripping down to 1/4" on my table-saw.. box joints with a miter slot jig but in neither case does my hand get closer to the blade than about 8". And the blade is fully protected with both a crown guard and plastic shield except with the box joints. I cut dadoes with a router as I feel it is more precise and the cut quality is much better than with a gang-cutter stacked dado.
So.. bottom line to me is the slider is probably the best choice for sheets.. cross-cutting and ripping smaller stock but... not necessarily the best suited for any of the 3 as I see it. And with the extra $3000 + price tag.. not the best suited for someone getting into the hobby who is trying to figure out what set of chisels to buy on a budget. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,"And I do a lot of long stock as mentioned and I really don't feel a slider is best suited for that".Perhaps; perhaps not. But you'll never know until you try one.However, you might consider that a saw like my Scheppach is, in fact, a unisaw with a lot of useful bits on it, such as the sliding carriage, blade brake (etc., etc.). If I take all the useful extra bits off, only the colour and the badge might give you a clue that it ain't a Delta.*****If there was a simple cabinet saw, a la unisaw, and a yupean slider saw of similar power and capacity, both at $2387.99, which would you buy? I'd have the latter meself, as it saves on having to buy that chopsaw or make all them cross-cutting boxes and that. :-)There's nothing wrong with US unisaw things, as far as they go. But why did they cease to evolve in 1923? Why don't Delta, Powermatic, Steel City et al simply design and add a sliding carriage? Well, I suppose if it takes them 75 years to get around to a riving knife, it'll be only 4 generations before we get the slider (unless they do the blade brake first). Lataxe, who likes and admires Victorian engineering but wouldn't buy a steam car.
I would chose the slider if.. if.. the extensions could be knocked down quickly to save foot-print. And yes... you can rip long stock on a slider but... you don't clamp a 2"+ thickness 10' long to the slider itself. You do it the same way you would with an American cabinet saw. You just pay about $3000 extra over on this side of the pond to do it the same way.
You won't find a slider as you mentioned for $2400 here period. The Grizzly is $2900 shipped. I looked at it closely at the IWF Show a few months ago. Not a bad saw but not the quality of the more expensive sliders in the guts or the sliding mechanism.
My saw cost $1800 new.. I paid $475 for my sliding compound miter saw which will cross-cut 26" and handle 14' stock. That's $2300 approximately total. I have a half fence.. I have a crown guard.. I have the blade en-closed over the blade.. I use proper support left of blade ripping.. I have proper support in both front and rear of the saw. My hands don't come closer than 8" to the blade in any circumstance and I don't stand in the lane.
Do I feel I live with a false sense of security? Frankly no. My $1800 TS didn't come with that capability on-board. I put it there and for under $100. I think that the American TS is getting a worse rap than the person standing behind it that took the guard off... sits things on top of the fence while using it that can be knocked off and touch the blade.. doesn't use the splitter because it gets in the way and takes too long to take off to do non through cuts that have better options to getting done than a TS period.. places hands much too close to the blade.. leans over the saw to retrieve.. and stands in the line of fire.
A spade is a spade and why should I blame the saw for any of the above? If I am the person doing those things why not just step up to the plate and say I am macho by nature.. feel invisible and maybe didn't score too high on a IQ test.
After all is said and done... a spade is still a spade. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards from the other side of the pond where a spade is a spade.... century after century...
Sarge..
General International sells 2 levels of slider saws here. One, on p.2 of their current promotion, does sell for about $2,400 dollars, but all you get is an Asian cabinet saw with a very basic slider in place of the left wing. On p.3 for $5,329 is a better option, with a separate scoring-knife and what they call a "European-style" sliding table. You'd know better than I how European it is. It's still an Asian saw without a brake. The basic Canadian made General saw costs double the Asian one, so for quality equivalent to your Scheppach I'd guess a cost of around $7k, and still lacking a few features. I couldn't fit one into my 20 x 10 foot shop anyway, but the price would scare me off considering how rarely I use sheet goods. I have a riving knife, but otherwise set up as "son of Sarge" safety-wise, and I don't feel unsafe.
http://www.general.ca/promo/ENG_US_small.pdf
BTW is Scheppach still made exclusively in Europe? Some of their smaller machines have a distinctly Asiatic look about them.
Cheers, Jim
Jim,The Sarge setup in an excellent arrangement and probably makes his US style saw the safest and most versatile it can be. Sarge is a special bloke who is full of knowledge and can-do. But I'd still argue that a unisaw could easily be re-engineered to emulate all the features of a mid-range European sliding table saw, inclusive of not just the riving knife but all the other innovations that have been added to a basic saw over the years. And this would make it better (safer and more versatile). Nothing of the unisaw features or capabilities would be lost.There are many European TS that are nowhere near the cost (and perhaps not the engineering quality either) of Felders and their ilk. That Scheppach of mine has a footprint very similar to a unisaw, as it's right hand table folds down and the sliding table doesn't have an outrigger nor all the other large sections of a Felder panel saw. It fits in my 10ft X 18ft shed, along with a large BS, lathe, drum-sander, router table, drillpress, big belt sander, woodrat, plano-press, planer/thicknesser and a 2ft X 6ft 6in bench. Naturally, most of the above are on wheels. I would guess (I have no unisaw to examine) that the Scheppach engineering is at least as good as that of Delta, Powermatic et al. If I can buy one, with all the bits, for £1400 before tax (about $2400 at the current exchange rate?) I'm sure that they would cost around that or less if Scheppach exported to the US.But why should a US unisaw maker not develop a similar model at a similar cost? Such saw technology is generic and surely not subject to patents.****I believe Scheppach still make their own TS,BS and planer/thicknessers in Germany. Looking at their lathes, belt-sanders and one or two other small machines, I see a definite "generic far-east" aspect. Scheppach paint on their colours then up the price to 2 or 3 times the price of a "basic blue" version of the same machine. They may refine the innards or replace the motor to justify this price-hike - I don't know......However, I do know that their main-line products, those made in Germany, are very well made and function very well indeed. I might have bought a Knapp or Felder if I had the room and money but I don't honestly feel the need of one. I would hate to be stuck with a unisaw, though, even if Sarge fixed it up purfeck for me. :-)But that sawstop brake would be a good addition to the Scheppach.Lataxe
Well if I could have found a Euro-style machine that fit into my shed at that kind of price I'd certainly have been interested. But it's not easy even to set eyes on one here. My dealer is in a city of about 400K, and serves an area about half the size of England, and the only slider he has on display is a Minimax. Despite its name if I could squeeze it into my 10 feet I don't think I could get around it on both sides.
The price of yours is a bit of a shocker too. When I arrived in Canada from the UK just about everything -- houses, cars, energy, food, wood -- cost half as much here. Perhaps the nearness of Germany and the common market makes a difference? When I google Chinese and Taiwanese tool builders, most show several Euro-style saws, so it would certainly be possible for North American companies to order them there with minimal R & D, and not a huge amount of lag time. I guess they don't see the demand. I wonder if a tool like the Shopsmith cornered and maybe soured the market for a saw that could do more? A couple of years ago Grizzly brought out a combined jointer/ planer, a tool that I'd buy like a shot if it was available in Canada, and it seems to have attracted vey little attention. I mentioned it to my Steel City rep at the time, and he acknowledged that he'd had a few requests for a similar machine, but so far nothing has come of it. I suppose I'll be in my box -- elm, I think -- before anything changes much
Cheers, Jim
Hey Jerry... not trying to ambush you there as I know you love the slider and right-fully so. But I had a feeling the comment was made as more of a "rah-rah-sisk-boom-bah"... my team is #1 even though we don't play the other 100 major colleges in actual games.. etc. etc. You get the drift. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
BTW I am PSU alumni and fan and "rah-rah-sisk-boom-bah"... for them. I thought they were going all the way and far as I know they play other college teams.
I actually feel that you are a "rah-rah-sisk-boom-bah"... type of guy. Hey I am Sarge and I can rip 10' to 12' pieces on my cabinet saw. I was just trying to express exactly how I feel going from a Unisaw to a Hammer slider. I like to rate everything from wine to food to power tools. I would rate the Unisaw a 2.5 and the Hammer slider that I now own a 9.5 on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being excellent.
BTW to get a 126" Felder slider you would have to get a KF 700 S starting at $13000. Sarge if you are happy with your cabinet saw that is great. It sound like your are producing some excellent pieces. I was happy with my Unisaw until I got the slider. It is just safer for me and a real pleasure to use. I get a lot of satisfaction in owning quality tools.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Hey I am Sarge and I can rip 10' to 12' pieces on my cabinet saw....
Simply a comparison as I can and I do often as that is required with the nature of how I work. You can do that also on a slider.... but the very same way you do it with my cabinet saw as the slider doesn't come into play in this operation unless I am missing something here.
Regards...
Sarge..
You are correct Sarge that we would both rip 10' to 12' pieces using the rip fence. If you visit the Felders Owner's Group or the Mini Max Owner's Group on Yahoo and ask how long of slider to get most owners will usually say 9'. That will handle 4' x 8' sheets and most ripping operations. Most slider owners use the sliding table for ripping. I have done a ripping comparison on my saw. The edge that is ripped using the slider is always a higher quality cut, no joining needed. The clamp keeps the board from moving and the slider is just more precise that trying to guide a board along a rip fence.
Sarge I am not trying to sell you a slider. I just find my Hammer slider is so much better that the American cabinet saw and the Hammer line is the least expensive in the Felder line-up. I could type a couple of pages of what I like about the Hammer. It is by far my best power tool and if it sometimes sounds like I am cheering I guess I am. Oorah
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Edited 11/18/2008 9:13 am ET by JerryPacMan
Edited 11/18/2008 10:47 am ET by JerryPacMan
Interesting thread. All points are valid and applicable depending from whence you come. Kind of makes one feel like he is in an inferior position.
Justifiably, the production shop can afford a $30K machine that will talk to you but, how many common garage woodworkers, even the most serious, can justify even a $5K TS and forgo expanding their repertoire of other tools.
We all have started somewhere and expanded into better performing power tools, and so it goes.
I started out with what some would consider, myself included, a boat anchor for a TS. I have upgraded and now want to move into a cabinet saw. I would dearly love that slider table but, I'll use it three time a year.
I think I'll have to stick to pre-cutting and final cutting for now.
Ron, I am retired and wanted a new table saw. I had been debating getting a slider for 2 years. I drove to the Felder Delaware office for a 2 day seminar and got to handle the hardware. My Felder salesman would call occasionally and I was still undecided because it is a lot of money for a saw/shaper. Finally I committed to purchasing and 3 month later I am setting up the new saw/shaper. I had been using the Unisaw/BA for almost 20 years and with link belts and a Tenryu Gold Metal blade it cut beautifully. At first i had trouble adjusting to using the slider and considered putting the Unisaw back in service, I am glad i didn't. Finally I adapted to using the slider and it hit me. This is one fine power tool that does what it should with a great deal of precision, safe and is a joy to use. My woodworking friends have handled it and are equally impressed. I hope one day many more people get to enjoy using a Euro slider.
BTW I started woodworking using a $300 Sears saw and built some very nice items. I did not mean to make make people feel like they are in an inferior position. Upgrading tools takes time and I was in my early 60's before the slider arrived.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
"Justifiably, the production shop can afford a $30K machine that will talk to you but, how many common garage woodworkers, even the most serious, can justify even a $5K TS and forgo expanding their repertoire of other tools".. Ron
You say in one paragraph what takes me pages of explanation. The sliders are indeed top notch contenders but... everyone is not in the same weigh class they pack the most punch in. But.. that doesn't mean you still can't fight.
Ron.. my first table saw in 1972 was a J C Penny used circular saw mounted under a 2 x 4 piece of ply with a rectangular hole for the blade to stick through. The On-Off switch was the trigger taped to the run position with duct tape and you plug it in and un-plug it. The high tech fence was a piece of aluminum angle micro adjusted by me and held to the table with two C clamps. A hollow ground blade carried the load to the cut as premium blades were non-existent at the time. But... I was determined.
The Brits flew Spit-fires in WW II that didn't quite match up too the ME 109's. The early U.S. fighter planes did not quite match up to the Japanese Zero's. But.. who won the air battles in the end and why? Perhaps the men behind the "stick" of those machines may have played a key role in success?. Perhaps?... They took what they had available and with determination and cunning... made it work for them.
Good luck with your cabinet saw when you get it... whatever you get will work fine with determination... cunning and an awareness for safety IMO.
Regards...
Sarge..
Not many folks realize that the moon landing of 1969 had less computer capability than the common automobile of today.
Yes, bells and whistles are nice! I built my first major piece, a maple roll top desk, using a 9" worn contractors saw, a shop made router table and a finish sander. It can be done! Thank God, I hope thats politically correct, for lots of sand paper and time!
I still have the shop made router table I built 7 years ago with no reason to consider anything else including the 3 1/2 HP Milwaukee "hoss" under it. And that was an interesting bit of trivia about the moon landing.
Regards...
Sarge..
I know you are not, Jerry. I just don't see the variance of the gap between the two as you do based on what my needs are. I am familiar with Hammer.. Rojek and Laguna as I considered all three 4 years ago. I would love to have a slider as it it very precise with cross-cut and small work. But.. they all took too much foot-print for my shop and I do very few sheets. So... the price was not justified in my case.
BTW... my cabinet saw is very precise ripping but I run an Amana 20 flat T Euro rip blade on thick stock. Not a glue line rip but much faster with the fewer teeth and larger gullets to remove waste. I simply allow 1/8" extra on the rip and take it for a pass on each side on my jointer which I have honed to 1/16" on each pass. I am so used to doing it and it only adds about 30 seconds per board. No dead-lines lurk over my head fortunately.
And we know who Penn State is at my house-hold. My 12 year younger wife is an ex "little Miss University of Pittsburgh Cheer-leader" but.. the parents in-law who moved down last year just to be closer to their adorable "wild eyed southern son-in-law" and my BIL who came down about 20 years ago to work at Delta Air Lines are both Penn Staties. Sheesh..... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
We were pulling for Penn State to go to #1 but I do feel Florida has the best all rounded team in the nation currently with Texas Tech having the best offense. Unfortunately if you look past the heart... Penn State is well rounded but a day late and a dollar short of those two. I would love to see Penn State play Southern Cal in a bowl and Florida and Texas Tech bump heads. But... there are a few teams that may have other ideas and it only takes one day of let-down in college to spoil yours dreams.. And yes... there should be play-offs as the BCS thing is just pure un-adulterated BS. Just drop the C. :>) Nuff of that on a WW forum.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,I can't rip a board longer than 78" on my slider. I had actually ordered the saw with a 98" slider originally (the Hammer "Perform" model), then changed to the 78" "Comfort" model as the Perform has a different chassis configuration and has just too large a foot print. It's a really BIG saw.I don't handle pieces much longer than my slider can accommodate. I cut to length before I rip and that handles 90%+ of my needs.I have never had the need to rip 10' - 12' foot lumber. But I could use the rip fence to do it. Or I might use my band saw. The slider is not capable of doing that.BTW, when I had a contractor's saw, I developed an unorthodox way of pushing the wood through when ripping. Contractor's saws don't have a lot of table to the right of the blade, whereas cabinet saws can have 10 feet of table out there.The usual ripping stance is to stand out of the line of the blade, to its left, push the wood through on the blade's right with the right hand on top of the piece, supplying force into the fence (on the right), push with the left hand on the trailing edge of the work, eventually walking a few inches around the short table to the left of the blade, reaching over the blade with the right hand to push the stock completely past the blade.Now, I've always considered that a very awkward thing to do. I suppose with the blade guard on, it's safe enough, but it bothers me anyway. I've seen guys do it with a bare blade. I break out in a cold sweat even describing that.My "contrary" technique was to feed the wood, mostly with my left hand and to walk around the RIGHT side of the small contractor's table, until I was about in line with the right end of the arbor and use both hands in a sideways motion to take the wood all the way through the cut.I may be very wrong, but I considered that much safer, with minimal chance of kick back. My body was certainly never in line with the cutting forces and I never reached across the blade.My sliding table saw has 15 inches of cast iron table to the right of the blade, plus two 17.5" extensions. I have both extensions off the machine. So I could use the same technique with the rip fence on long pieces.Yes an "American" cabinet saw can be fitted with a short fence or a long fence can be "converted" to a short fence by simply clamping a sort board to it. But just how many owners of Biesemeyers would be the slightest bit interested in doing that or even why it might be a good idea?Rich
I thought that was the case with ripping the long stock, Rich. I had a small slider once and I go over about every inch of the Felders.. Hammers.. Laguna's.. MM.. and Rojek at IWF every two years. I could have missed something in reference to ripping but.. didn't think so. I am aware of the various foot-prints that the sliders take up also.
I think you are wise to to with the combo in your case as I believe you live in Florida now. I worked with Anheiser Busch in Tampa for 6 years after Vietnam and know that lot size and housing is premium with most cases being a double garage at most. I had a single car garage those days in the early 70's and had to literally move a lot outside to do any work.
But.. I didn't have many large machines then as now. I have a 900 sq. ft. double garage full with almost that much in the 1/2 basement to the rear. I keep the jointer.. spindle sander.. scroll saw.. belt sander.. a large assembly table and wood rack back there but roll up the machines to what I call the cut area for use to keep saw-dust contained to near the open doors. But... still don't have the room for a larger slider foot-print but I do very few sheet goods.
Not a bad idea about moving to the right to guide it through. I simply provide support front.. rear.. left and fence right. The support left keeps the stock snug on the fence and I guide by hand until the tail of the stock gets to my red line which is about 10" from the stock. Then a long push stick takes it from there. I really don't have a problem as you might say I have set up a "guidance system" that has proven to work.
The long stock is required when I hire out to surface someone's rough they would prefer milled down. I also so some 16' on occasion to build chair rail.. cove and round over I sell to a local hard-wood source. When I am doing a normal project which has been quite a few since I retired a year ago.. I also cut down the stock to just beyond what I need before ripping. It just makes sense.
The pictures below should "tell" the story of how I handle the long stock.
Opps.. edit as I missed about the Beisemeyer question. Read my post to Lataxe and you will see where I credit the really nasty and un-safe to the person standing behind the saw as opposed to the saw itself. I would bet that most accidents on a U.S. cabinet saw are not due to the saw but the operator and their approach to using it. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 11/18/2008 12:55 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,I think your set up and practices are much more safety-oriented than the typical work shop.If I had that much straight line ripping to do I would probably get a power feeder!I have the luxury of a 3-car garage. And I have an acre to "spread out in" that is itself in the middle of a pine forest that I don't think will see any further construction for many years. But garages in Florida are a laugh. They are typically just inches bigger than a car, on both sides and front to rear. My 2 car garage in Arizona was bigger than my present 3 car garage and it had 8 feet from the front of the car to the back wall when the car was well in beyond the door.Rich
It's about as good as it gets with a cabinet saw without going to a power feeder IMO, Rich. If I continue to do side jobs surfacing to supplement income I am definitely considering a power feeder as it it the safest way to approach it. It would cut time down and most definitely be the ultimate in safety for straight line ripping.
But.. for whatever reason I enjoy ripping long stock with me supplying the power. Perhaps the challenge and satisfaction of meeting it.. I really don't know?
Whoa... an acre and a 3 car garage. That is like having a ranch in Florida. Are you outside the larger cities? As you know space is premium there with the tiny lots and house sizes that can go on them. I once owned an acre lot in Brandon outside Tampa but sold it when I moved back to Atlanta in 1978. I wish I still had it and the 3 acres we had up around Leesburg where we had a travel trailer on.
BTW... I know you were in Arizona.. By chance were you in Hawaii before that and originally from Philly? Just a guess from an old man that's memory is not all that bad. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,I'm just a few miles inland from the gulf coast at Crystal River, FL, 80 miles north of Tampa. This is horse country. A 5 acre lot is small here.Yup, I grew up in Phila., headed west to Californ eye aye, then Maui, circled back to Prescott, AZ and now I'm in central FL. The five year goal is to get back to Maui, forever.Heck, I had an infinitely greater supply of (mainland) hardwood lumber there than I do here! Maple, oak, cherry, mahoganies, paduak, wenge, teak, koa (of course), purple heart, birch, baltic plywood, were in stock always. There is NOTHING in this area. Tampa and Orlando are the closest resources.Regarding the observation that not many garage woodworkers can afford the price of even the lowest-priced European sliding table saw. . .THAT is exactly the point. US ingenuity and manufacturing should have been able to design and produce a machine easily as good or better than my Hammer equipment at the price of a Unisaw, LONG ago. This is NOT rocket science, just good machine design. They are really very BASIC pieces of equipment. Take a good look at these machines and you slap your self on the forehead and say, "Of course! This is the way this SHOULD be done! What are we, Neanderthals?" (apologies to cavemen reading this)The US should be a LEADER in such things. Instead, it is not only far behind, it isn't even aware of the existence of such equipment and the need.Rich
Edited 11/18/2008 6:02 pm ET by Rich14
I thought you were the Rich that posted from Hawaii a while back now. I am familiar with Crystal River even though I left Tampa in 1978. I know how it has built up which they look at as progress. :>) And you are correct about getting hard-wood down there but that may have changed somewhat in 30 years.
And I can't argue with those last paragraphs about we could do it if someone was paying attention. But.. as long as no one complained in bulk and continued to buy... why bother seemed to be the stance that prevailed.
Hello... U.S. auto-makers. Shame but I think that a few manufacturers are sitting up and taking notice now as the voice of concern has reached them along but the consumer dollar is evading them for other markets. Whatever all that means.
So.. maybe it will be a turn-a-round with the key words.. Yes we can!
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 11/18/2008 6:26 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Chris, I have a Hammer B3 Winner saw/shaper combo like Rich. Since i rarely cut sheet goods I got the short sliding table, 49"/1500mm. I mostly make clocks, boxes and other small items. The large slider and outrigger would just be too big and cumbersome for me. I also just got the 31" rip capacity. One problem with the 31" rip capacity is that you just get a small steel extension table. I ended up ordering the full length extension table.
The Sawstop is very nice but IMHO ii think the slider is a safer to use than the Sawstop. The guard is always in use and your hands are no where near the blade unless you use the rip fence. I use the slider to rip most cuts and with the clamp the quality of cut is excellent. The slider is better than you would think when it comes to cutting small parts. I needed to cut some 3 1/4" squares out of baltic birch for some clock/music boxes. I did this very safely using the sliding table and clamp.
I did not get the scoring option but I did get the dado option. I do not not cut sheet goods very often and I have a Freud Fussion blade that is excellent for chip free sheet good cuts.
I did not get a mobility kit. I got a narrow (20") pallet jack for moving the saw and getting it off the pallet. Also, with the pallet jack I can move other tools.
I highly recommend viewing the video and trying a slider. Felder will hook you up with someone who has a slider in your area. The slider will be more money than the Sawstop but well worth it.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
if you have never had the pleasure of using a panel saw, you should try it. i know you think cabinets are boring, but at the shop i work at we have a $30,000 panel saw with a digital fence and arbour control.you just punch in any settingand it automaticly sets itself.angles are bang on.i mean to the tenth of a degree it can be set.it can rip 10 foot sheets and crosscut a 5 foot wide panel.all dead square.we also have 2 unisaws and they seem like toys.for jointing the edge of a board, just set it with hold downs and the slider rips your edge super straight.the cut still needs cleaned up but one pass with hand or power jointer does that faster.it is sweet.we blast through lift after lift of sheet goods, and with the scoring blade, tearout is minimal to non exsistant.it spoils you when you go home and use your dinky little contractors saw, haha.oh well.the work must go on.p.s. loved your bubinga table.awesome slab.
One thing that I would like about a sliding table saw is not having to wrestle with plywood. I really don't use plywood too much, but it may be partially because it's inconvenient. I have a friend who has a european combination machine (thinking of selling it too, not that I'm interested). I will talk to her about the slider.
Glad you liked the table. It was a fun project that didn't require a tablesaw at all.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
If you get to where you use a lot of sheet goods you might consider a vertical panel saw. Plywood is much easier to handle on edge.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
You make a good point Don. I really hope that I can never ever justify owning a panel saw.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Dan, the guys covered the different types of saws. However, they didn't touch on the used saw market. I suggest you check Craigslist.org and see if you can find something there. At a price range of 800.00, you should have no trouble getting something that will meet your needs.
Personally, I'd stay away from the portable saws - unless you need to take it to a jobsite or need to store it on a shelf or something. The added weight of a hybrid or cabinet saw, not to mention beefier fence and increased HP, will pay dividends in the future.
If your space allows, I'd suggest finding a used cabinet saw and get a nice mobile base.
Good luck!~
learn from my mistakes. I had a table top craftsman with the cheesiest of frames. While ripping a piece, the frame "moved". I looked down to steady the pushstick and my left hand, in a glove, just touched the blade and was thrown back.
Fortunately, It took just the hide and a bit of muscle tissue of my left thumb. This happened in November 2007. I still have flashbacks when I am even thinking about doing some work in the shop.
A contractor's saw is not much more than that table top with a better frame. After healing a bit, I went to the farm, got some square tubing and welded a frame that wouldn't move and plates to mount it to the ground or screw to the floor.
Spend the extra and get what really matters, your piece of mind. If you want a contractor grade saw, then by all means make it a SawStop. Just make sure you don't have to call your wife to explain why you're in the ER.
Scrimp on something else, but not your safety.
if you are spending 800 or less cabinets are out of the question. Yet, many cabinets are actually easier to move on bases and offer better dust control than so called "smaller" saws. Also if space is a premium look for a saw that maybe has a built in router table in the saw's right wing extension (you kill two tools in the space of one).
I have the General Int contractor saw, great saw for the money. It will do everything you want and often is one of the top rated. I built a simple plywood and plexiglass router table and mounted it in the rail to the right.
With that said, I wish I had listened to my buddy who told me to buy a cabinet saw when I first started out, I now have a big stand alone router table that I built, and I wish I had better dust control (cabinet style). But you live and learn. I just keep reminding myself, 100 years ago (and today) guys are building beautiful intricate pieces using hand tools from start to finish.
If you want the best cabinet saw for a small shop, buy a Powermatic or a Sawstop. That's enough. (I have a PM66 and when I made the first cut it was like I had cut my first board!) the Sawstop looks to be just as good quality but...it might save your fingers or hand! Think about it. If I was starting new, Sawstop would be for sure the way to go.
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