I just finished my second table top glue up with biscuits for an eliptical top. Prior to cutting the past first one I used a block plane (all I had) to smooth out the top where some of the boards were proud. My question is whether to invest in a bench or jack plane to do this or use my belt sander?
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Replies
Boy, that must have been a workout using a block plane to level a tabletop! If you are skilled in using your belt sander you can use it, but they have a way of gouging the surface unless you're really careful with them. I would recommend using a #5 jack to get the table top flat and then sanding with a random orbital sander starting with 80 grit paper and working your way to 180 to get it smooth for finishing. I'm sure that you'll hear from people who would recommend a #7 jointer plane instead of the jack, and that will work fine as well. If you feel that you want to use planes to do the whole thing, you can use a smoother after the jack or jointer, but the sand paper will work just as well. Let us know how it works out.
Jim
Although a lot depends on the type of table, and the type of finish you plan to apply, even the most minute of surface irregularities will show once the finish is applied. Absent some sort of jig to hold the belt sander with a fair degree of precision, something like "skis" used frequently with routers, I'd avoid using that to (truly) flatten the surface. Belt sanders, while very handy for some things, are very difficult to "manage" with delicacy. I think a carefully-used jointer plane (#7 or #8) would be a better approach for flattening, followed by judicious sanding.
For larger tables, I could even envision a two-person, super-long sanding block (well surface-jointed so as to perfectly flat), to which multiple sheets of sandpaper were attached.
It might be worth it to use more biscuits if you're getting surface irregularities that need so much sanding and flattening after glue ups.
SA
If you can have only one plane, I would recommend a 5 1/2 bench plane. It is a good all-around plane for flattening and smoothing panels. You can then finish sand starting with 120 grit on a ROS.
The misalignment of adjacent boards when using biscuits is always there to some degree. Make sure that you are referencing all cuts to the same side and that there is no debris to affect registration.
The answer might depend in part on what quality of finish you are seeking. The recommendations I've seen for flattening generally suggest a jack plane, saying a smoother isn't quite long enough to bridge dips that might be noticed. I've started using a Lie Nielsen bevel up jack (#62?) with a toothed blade to flatten, which seems very fast and relatively chip/tear free on qs/rs cherry, followed by a solid blade with a 50 deg sharpening angle. but there is a learning curve for sharpening and using planes.
My opinion is that a planed surface is much prettier if planning BLO/shellac or similar finish. If planning to use pigment stain, will have to sand with 220 or even 150 after planing.
Thanks to all for your comments. It did take a long time with the block but the finished product looked and felt great. I have been wanting to learn about planes but a little worried about the sharpening. Many years ago used to sharpen dies and chisels (not good on the chisels). I have an orbital that I always use prior to finish. The wood is cyprus for a vineyard table. Will let you all know what happens. It might be awhile.
There are many plane enthusiasts who recommend that planing is the only way to flatten a glue up such as yours. I'm not in that camp at all.
But now that you say that you used Cypress, I have to say that planing is better than sanding.
But it's only better if you are confident that you can get your plane iron very sharp.
Sanding softwoods can leave an irregular surface as the wood varies a lot in its relative hardness across the annual rings. It's easy to remove much more material in the softer areas. This is not so much the case with hardwoods as there is not so much variation in hardness throughout the board.
But a plane must be very sharp to properly slice softwood and not tear it.
And with all planing, the larger the body, the easier it is to obtain a uniformly flat surface.
Final sanding before finishing should not cause much problem.
Rich
In the interest of safety (and so we can all privately laugh at your expense) would you mind sharing how you injured yourself with the plane iron? Thanks, Matt.
I was setting the depth of the plane and having a little difficulty getting a good curl. After viewing a good training video on youtube about sharpening and using planes, I adjusted frog. Stupidly, I ran my index finger over the surface to see how deep the iron was set. Ooops!! It was set good enough to cut into my index finger to where I almost went to my son (emergency room doc) but knew what he would say. Wash it with soap and water and put a band aid around it. I did that and several days later it had fused. I know a dumb thing to do!! Won't make that mistake again.
Hmmm.
That seem odd to me, how you cut yourself. I almost always check the depth of cut by running my finger over the blade front to back (into the edge) and have never cut myself. Perhaps pressure is a factor. And when testing, I'm always drawing my finger perpendicularly to the blade's edge, never along the edge.
Glue
Did you know woodworkers use CYA glues, super glues, for those fast set items. I have some in my shop as well. Never does see a piece of wood, but it sure works well on my fingers as well! Best thing in the world to stick together some parts indeed.
My rabbit plane and I try to play nicely, but sometimes it just doesn't work that way..... That little corner can play havoc along a finger....
AZMO
CA - Useful stuff
Cyanoacrylate is also a pretty good insulator of heat. Once, I was drilling and glueing in the brass tubes to make pens with a friend. We were using CA glue, and he had gotten a bit on his fingertips and I had been careful not to. After drilling the last blank, my friend took the drill bit out of the chuck and waited for me to glue in the brass tube before passing me the bit. The bit was hot enough to burn me. I saw that he had been holding it for 10 seconds, so incorrectly assumed it was not hot. Good trick. Mean trick.
Groz quality
Groz planes are not generally highly rated for quality. However if you tune them properly you will end up with a very decent plane.
Lap the sole, pay some attention to the frog and if necessary file away the lumps of japanning on the throat.
Generally agreed with some additions...
When someone asks a seemingly simple question about whether they should purchase a new plane or use a belt sander to flatten a large glue-up, there are of course two schools of thought. Those that jump right in and say plane, often exclude the stuff about set up, sharpening, practice, experience, etc. Those that jump right in with belt sander, neglect the part about belt selection, need to oppose inherent motor torque, practice, experience, etc… Both planes and belt sanders can make a real mess of things until the operator has developed some skills – skills that should be developed on practice boards!
The old argument that you can get a better finish with a plane is generally made by those really skilled in the use, set-up, and sharpening of a plane. I agree that a nicely, reflective planed surface is great and one can start right out with 150 grit or finer sanding. How about the miniscule mismatches between planed surfaces? What sort of sanding do they require? Once a surface has achieved a 220 or 320 grit finish, can you really tell if it is the product of planing and sanding or just sanding?
Whether you plane or belt sand, the real key issue on flattening a large surface is the glue-up. Selecting hook-free stock; utilizing face jointing where possible followed by planing to uniform thicknesses; arranging boards so that their remaining bows are in opposition to each other; utilizing numerous cawls to align adjacent boards; as well as alternating top and bottom bar clamps to ensure panel flatness are the keys to a successful glue up. In my opinion, dowels and biscuits are ineffective crutches that degrade the inherent strength of a glued joint between well matched surfaces.
Now, off to flatten a glued up 20” W x 102” L x 1.5” T cherry top for a monster sideboard. This old man will use a belt sander (and whatever else it takes!) on this one. Ain’t life grand?
Jerry
After glue up of a 17 x 24"
After glue up of a 17 x 24" approx. Cherry table top (also to become an Oval) I had about the same question - sand (w/Bosch Orbital sander - my usual) or try a Plane. I had just seen the FWW video ''Planing vs. Sanding Shootout" on the FWW site - between Asa and Mike (its a fun watch if you haven't seen it) - and decided to Plane.
After a lot of reading and thinking about it - I bought a Lee Valley Veritas Bevel Up Smoother - they call it a 604 1/2 I think.
I did not want to use it to initially flatten and remove the glueline - so I got a Bosch 3365 single-blade power planer for that step. (Its better than the more expensive 1594 IMHO - and I do now own both, unfortunately).
I am extremely pleased with the combination. The Bosch worked great initially (you may want to slightly ease each corner of the 'woodrazor' blade to prevent any tracks). But it did - in spots - leave the usual planer mill marks. The LV BU smoother quickly took care of that.
You really do not want to sand the glueline away before using a Plane. The sanding grit remaining on/in the wood will quickly ruin your plane edge.
Instead of the Bosch, you could use a simple scraper to remove the glue. Then first plane across the grain to level the gluelines. Then finish by planing with the grain.
I ended up with a beautiful almost burnished top which I though great. I sealed with a shellac washcoat so as to minimize blotching. Then Deft Brush On laquer.
I am now 'pulling over' the laquer to get rid of the brush marks. (search FWW Finishing Videos for 'Pullover' if you are unfamiliar with that).
I will definitely do this again on future tops.
Good Luck!
Chris
I'm an old fart newbie here
thanks for all the points-of-view here -- I'm making a tiger maple table top and even though I have all sorts of electric "stuff" I decided that I want to plane the top and use scraper blades...wife says "sure...you'll quit and use your drum sander or some other of your expensive tools -- or you'll tell me you need a new something..." NO! I'm doin' this by hand -- I'M NOT QUITTING...EVEN IF I I GET PLANE MARKS -- I WANT PLANE MARKS SO THAT I CAN BRAG THAT I DID IT BY HAND!!!
Hand planed
For my last two table tops. The plane I used was a nice long one. I think I have a few pictures to show off..
Why not use a card scraper?
If it is just minor variation between the boards you might have more luck using a card scraper. A card won't cause tear out, relatively fast and a heck of lot cheaper than a number 5 1/2 plane, whoever makes it.
Peter
smoothing table top
I read someone on here took their glue up to a door manufacturer and had them plane it for 25 dollars. I read about the trouble with belt sanders and divets, and while I was still considering it, I took a chance and googled industrial milling in my area. I found one about 30 minutes away. One phone call, an hour round trip, and 35 dollars later, I have my table top planed on both sides, sanded to 180 grit, and ready for a base. Best money I've spent in a long time. Even with the right tools and the skill to use them, it would have been hours on the work bench. Instead it was 10 minutes in a state of the art saw mill, and they even let me help run it through their 30 thousand dollar planer sander.
smoothing table top
I read someone on here took their glue up to a door manufacturer and had them plane it for 25 dollars. I read about the trouble with belt sanders and divets, and while I was still considering it, I took a chance and googled industrial milling in my area. I found one about 30 minutes away. One phone call, an hour round trip, and 35 dollars later, I have my table top planed on both sides, sanded to 180 grit, and ready for a base. Best money I've spent in a long time. Even with the right tools and the skill to use them, it would have been hours on the work bench. Instead it was 10 minutes in a state of the art saw mill, and they even let me help run it through their 30 thousand dollar planer sander.
. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfAHlHzd7DM
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