This just in . . .
Stanley is buying Black and Decker.
Film at eleven.
Rich
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Replies
Wow, that's interesting news. Does that mean we'll have StanWalt, Stack & Decker, Storter Cable and Stelta? ;-)
Great! Now all my tools will come with my name already on them.
Wonderful!
Now we will have the blind leading the deaf.
I guess all the resulting tools will come shrink wrapped with peg holes.
DeWalt on a stick.
Kind of like corn dogs.
I didn't think we could go any lower.
I guess I shouldn't think.
BB
Watching glue dry on the coast.
I also heard (not really) that the new distributor will be Harbor Freight! :)I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
This reads like a story from on of the mags the guy had a future where we had two tool companies still selling tools, Fess was one and the other was all the other companies combined into one big company. Sad part is I think the author may end up being right.
For a while I was thinking that B&D may be starting to get it's act together. Case in point is the design and construction of the new UniSaw. They apeared to be letting the companies try and get the mess fixed but now we will have to what and see what the new Stanley administration does. And I do not expect much. The artical I read said they expect to increase profit by mergeing the two and at least some of that would come from cutting employees (just what we need more job cuts) and some from other cost cutting efforts (I can only assume this would be making things cheeper) So it does not look to good at this point.
Doug M
Yes, the combined companies will need fewer mis-managers. ;-)
"The artical I read said they expect to increase profit by mergeing the two and at least some of that would come from cutting employees"Yep, that says it all. That's all that matters. Increase profits. When companies merge that's code for cutting jobs, cheapening the products.There's never any talk about making great products. Only small, enthusiastic companies do that. Getting big means you get conservative and answer to the stockholders by the only "metric" (I hate that word) that exists in the corporate world - immediate (arithmetic) results to the bottom line.Long-term quality is a foreign concept.It doesn't much matter to me, as these two companies had already carried that concept so far I stopped buying anything from either of them long ago. The last item was a coffee grinder from B&D. It's lasted a long time, I'll admit. But I only use it to grind shellac flakes when I make a batch. That amounts to a few seconds every few weeks power on over the last 5 years or so. The plastic of the casing will disintegrate in about 300 years before the bearings wear out at that rate. Rich
Yup, saving X dollars = eliminating redundancy. Usually that's employees. A lot of that ends up being in management, but sometimes plants get shut down-Michael
Acutally the plants will move to china if any are left in the us. I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
I guess the feather brained number crunchers are counting on the redundancies to become self employed as woodworkers, thus buying the tools from the combine and increasing profits.I started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
I used to run a company that made all the aluminum parts and pieces for dewalt table and miter saws. They shut the facotry down in Fayetteville NC where they were all made and moved to mexicali Mehico. Now they source most of their componets from Tiawan.Mark Rhodes
Vinworx.com
Custome Wine Celllars & Cabinets
Hi MarkThis is typical of manufacturing now. Have they ever thought that they are destroying their market? If they are counting on importing their product back into the US how are the unemployed they created going to be able to afford to purchase that product?Seems to me the bean counters have replaced the "Objective" (to produce the best tool available)with the "bottom line". (Stack em high, sell em cheap!). They have lost sight of the fact that everyone is not stupid and will automatically buy the cr*p they have devalued the product to.Reminds me of a radio manufacturer from years ago, the engineers designed a great little set, the marketing guys took it and started to remove components until it stopped working. They then replaced that last component and marketed the set!!!!I have one of the De Walt 12" compound mitre saws purchased probably 12 years ago and a great machine it is. Could be it has some of your components in it.BruceI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Is it the manufacturers destroying their market, or is it the consumers who constantly seek the lowest price, who buy tools at the borg, despite some real probablity that they will be made more cheaply to meet the price points decreed by a retailer too large to say no to. Marketing departments are choosing price points and target markets based on what they see in the data. And, for that matter there is a place for $29.95 corded drills, that likely will do just fine for installing curtain rods, and the other arduous task imposed by non-handi homeowners. And, if quality is the thing you crave most, then there are brands that service that end of the market. BUT, it is still true that there is no free lunch. What so many want are tools that are of top quality, but still are cheaper than their counter parts from 10 years ago, despite changes in costs of manufacturing.
Spot on! Blaming the big bad conglomerate is easy but it is all driven by the consumer (us), business follows the money. People have come to expect everything to be priced at the Wally level and this has allowed people of very modest means to have many of the things only very well to do folks had just thirty years ago (big TV’s, full compliments of appliances, iPods, lots of clothing, etc..) . As a school kid (not that may years ago…) I got one pair of new shoes every year because that is all dad could afford; now most kids get five. Are we willing to accept less volume in exchange for greater quality and having things made here? I don’t think so.
A few issues. Yes we are all to blame a little bit. But at first we did not know they were built over seas (not like it was advertised for most things). Then we got the over seas stuff is cheaper and being as many of us were getting less and less money (or the money went a shorter and shorter distance) so in order to make the money go farther we have to try and buy as cheap as we can.
The whole mess however started not as a way to give us cheap products we could afford, but in order to save a few cents on an item. Years ago you used to get a plug in your gas tank that allowed the tank to be drained, then they desided that this was not need and they could save a few cents a car by getting rid of it. This way they saved money. But those of us that needed to have the gas tank drained because of bad gas or a bad item in said tank had to pay more as the mechanic had to work harder to fix the item (and they have done this countless times on cars). So the company saves money and you have to pay more to get something fixed.
But the company makes more and the stock market like it. And in this day that is all that really matters.
Personally I gave up worrying about where somethng is built anymore. I just buy the item that I like best and that I think is the best value for me (that may be cheap if I don't plan on using it much or it may be high end expensive if I will use it a lot). If that hurts the other guy, well at this point that is just to bad, but we spent the last 20 years doing this in this country and watching all or the good jobs leave and no one cared so now that they are all but gone I am no longer worried about it. The state of Michigan is all but dead becasue of this attitude (and we produced a LOT of things other then cars) Once upon a time we produce things like furniture and bikes and parts that other peaple used to build many things in other states. And no one really cared that the items where moved over seas until it started effecting them. So at this point I am doing what is best for me (like most of the country did for the past 20 plus years). It sounds mean but oh well. The average person in the country does not care about the other guy and this resulted in the mess we are in. So all I am doing if I spend more to support the average person in the US is costing me money I do not have any more thanks to all those that saved a buck. So now I say to heck with it. Buy what ever gets the job done at the cheepest you can get it.
If that means that Stanley Decker is now only good for (even more then they already are) one use junk then when I need something only once then I will buy thier product. And lets face facts they will make a ton of money because most peaple have no idea what they are buying. And they can not understand that they will need to replace it in a short order. Of course with things like drills and such they are getting to the point that these tools will be junked in a few years anyway to be replaced with the new and more powerful cordless tools anyway.
Doug M
What a sad world we live in, and what a sad world we are going to leave to our kids. GREED IS GOOD!! Isn't this the reason we are in such a mess at the moment.At the moment all of our landfills are chockers with once only use drills,computer screens, packaging etc.(If I was looking to start a new business I would look very seriously at packaging).In the beginning shares were issued to enable a business to expand, employ more, to grow etc. They were bought by people interested in the business. They have become a commodity and sold (traded) as such by people with no interest in the business at all except as profit.Maybe there should be a move towards educating people that there are other choices than one piece of cr*p over another piece of cr*p. (That bottom line again).I still care that my kids and grandkids will be able to be employed rather than on a welfare line somewhere because their jobs have been exported overseas in order for someone higher in the foodchain to have bigger and better BMWs and plasma TVs (and 127 pairs of snob-name trainers)
I started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
"The state of Michigan is all but dead becasue of this attitude (and we produced a LOT of things other then cars) Once upon a time we produce things like furniture and bikes and parts that other peaple used to build many things in other states."
Doug - I lived in Michigan for 25+ years - and some of them were in Detroit-Detroit (v. West Bloomfield-Detroit, Birmingham-Detroit,etc). I am very sad at the demise of Michigan in general, and Detroit especially. However..........
Furniture manufacturing did not go from the midwest to Asia - first it went to low-wage southern states, then it went to lower-wage Asia. You reap what you sow. Autos and parts followed a similar route, but there are also domestic plants of overseas auto companies (Kia just opened one in Georgia), because that was the correct economic decision.
" I just buy the item that I like best and that I think is the best value for me"
Agreed - That is rational economic action. There is no other course that results in increasing wealth (on the big scale). Just because something is manufactured overseas does not mean it is junk - how many times did the Big Three learn this lesson, in just the last 30 years? Blue Oval and Caddy are - rightly - bragging about their quality ratings. One can only hope that they have learned their lesson for the last time.
There is no such thing as a 100% domestic automobile, and any complex, assembled item is likely similar. Some people rant about buying only USA-produced shop machinery - I wonder how much of that tonnage started out as a K-car body that was crushed, shipped to China, and returned to the US as sheet steel for my TS cabinet, or the handles on my DP, or the gears in my planer, or the armature in my jointer motor?
You make a valid point. Being from Southwest VA and watching the apparel industry dissapear from southside and the carolina's, it was interesting to watch the news reports of factory closings as nice new superwalmarts go up all over town and are packed to the hilt. Kind of a self fufilling profecy. It's hard to tell anymore where somethings made. Even Hershey's is moving production of candies to mexico & china and will impacted jobs in Hershey PA. Difficult times. I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Although there are plenty of segments upon which to spread blame, I give the lion's share to the folks on Wall Street I call "expectators" - the folks who set the expectations for profit and stock value growth. No other group affects the decisions of corporate executives more, often forcing executives to make decisions based on short-term gains, rather than the long-term viability of a company.
Right on Ralph! Gotta protect those BONUSES.
Think society has gotta take a long hard look at itself.I started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
It's not "Wall Street" per se, they only provide the transactional services and some research gathering, it's the managers of the pension funds, mutual funds, hedge funds, and insurance companies, et. al, that look for shsort term profits in stock, that determine whether stock (and bond) prices rise and fall. The emphasis on short term is very natural, not perverse. The problem is that only the short term is visible--the rest is uncertain. And when discount rates reflect uncertainty, it become very true that a bird in the hand (short term profits) becomes much more valuable than a manager's promise that there might be two in the bush--maybe.
And, what makes the owners of private companies--ie. Cargill, Koch Industries, even Chrysler all that different in putting making profits in a high place. Remember there is NO long term viability without profits in the short term, at the short term that's fairly close at hand.
Today that is particularly true, since finance is still very hard to obtain. It's much better to finance operations and growth from short term profits and cash flow, not from borrowing that is only available to companies that hardly need it.
Hi SteveI see and understand what you are saying, however there are profits and there are obscene profits (and bonuses). If those fund managers etc were content with reasonable profits almost everyone would benefit.as it is at the moment the rich are getting richer and the poor are are being thrown on the unemployment scrapheap. Chasing higher and higher margins and returns in the market by shifting portfolios all over the place naturally create uncertainties, especially in manufacturing seeking investment. I don't have a problem with being rich, but at the expense of others jobs - not a good thing.
The words ethics and morality seem to have no meaning these days in the investment world.I started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
When you buy a mutual fund, you expect it to do as well as it can, otherwise you shift to a different one, and the fund manager looses his job. You want your retirement fund to do as well as it can--what may look like "obscene profits" is just the difference between $950 per month and $1000 a month to the pension recipient. .
Yes, Wall Street managers are paid well, but it is pretty complex. The scale starts when you have institutional salesmen, for example, who get paid completely and entirely by commission. Start at a percentage of the firms "commission" on each trade that pays the journeyman salemen a modest wage, and then when that scales up to the top salesmen they are making a LOT of money. Firm managers generally need to make more than most all of the people that work for them so they pay themselves on a par with the better salesmen. At this point, we are talking about millions per year.
These are people who had lots of options about well paying jobs too. Most went to top colleges. This is one of the few jobs where candidate for entry level jobs actually have to have good college GPA's. (The firm I worked at wouldn't hire junior research associates without 3.5 GPAs.) And, a lot of these are 7 am to whenever you get done jobs. (Except traders, who can leave before 5, but then most of us wouldn't last a week before being carried out in a straight jacket.)
These guys look at athlete and movie star pay scales and don't see that they deserve less.
Hi SteveI guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on what constitutes obscene profits". This it seems comes from our different perspectives and situations.My wife and I are teaching at a very remote location in a community of 25 people. They would consider that a 7am start was a 'lay in' and also work til the job is done. (6 days a week) This is in a climate where the average annual temp is 5 degrees c and the average annual wind speed is about 40mph. (I must admit no 3.7 GPA though) This for about US$1000 per month. It doesn't go far when you consider that a 3 1/2 oz jar of no name coffee costs around $11. The kids on the whole are clothed via a charity shop drop off about every 6 months and the kids come to school the next day showing off, and incredibly proud of, their new clothes. These kids I might add are totally delightful, no airs and graces, no inflated egos, respectful and just, well, great kids.These people have a very modest pension plan, severely affected by the purveyors of junk bonds and toxic mortgages yet they haven't expressed and real rancor at what has been inflicted on them. I sometimes rail on their behalf, forgive me! I admit to feeling that some of those in the financial world,on the respect scale are between child molesters and wheel clampers.There is a huge disparity in what a lot of people believe theirs and others labor is worth. I have on several occasions have had people say "yes its a lovely piece but its too expensive". They disregard the fact that for it to become a "lovely piece" it required many hours of loving labor. 'Its made of wood, wood is a common commodity therefore it should be cheap' seems to be the attitude and is the attitude that has been applied to all areas of endeavor not involving a computer or mobile phone.Here endeth the lesson, if you would all open you hymn books at page no.........BruceI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
I do understand. I'm not saying that the pay levels at the top in finance are "fair" or "desirable", just that the way in which they are have been set is understandable.
In fact, I think that the growing disparities and consequent concentration of income and wealth levels in the US (and elsewhere) are very, very dangerous. Stagnating middle classes are eventually going to be "fed up", and the responses of "fed up" people can be excessive. No easy solutions, and this isn't the place to debate them so I'll stop.
SteveI appreciate the insight from a financial perspective, I have never had the opportunity to chat with anyone, and see from that direction. Thank you for the opportunity.
I also hope that you or anyone else has not taken my comments personally, no criticisms were ever intended, indeed I would be mortified if anyone had done so. Also as you suggest this is not the correct forum for such discussions. It is interesting though to track the directions some discussions take, they wander far from the original.I am interested in any comments from anyone regarding the PAL (Public At Large) impression of woodwork. Is it art or craft or what and is there any proper consideration of what is involved in the production of the said works! Could this be a new post?Bruce.I started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Nothing taken personal at all. Besides I moved to finance too late, and perhaps with not quite enough fire, to get into the top echelon of the pay structure.
My only other comment about guys with the 7 figure pay checks is that it sometimes made them think that it made them smarter than they had been before.
For all most all of the six thousand years of recorded human history there has never been a “middle class”. I fear we are moving back to the natural state of affairs in our interactions. There is little reason to believe that a concept less than two hundred years old has much durability when measured against the normative behaviors of the race over time. <!----><!----><!---->
But, the industrial revolution that began in the second half of the 18th century began as an unprecedented association of events--including the domination of brown rats over black rats. The industrial revolution is of course still an on going process, in China and India now as the most visible venus, and, as before, brings with it significant growing pains--in some ways similar to the sharps pangs brought with such things as the enclosure movement that fundamentally altered agricultural production. I just cannot see anything to tell me that the industrial revoltion is just a blip in economic history and not one of the fundamental changes that have altered human history forever. The problem is that "good" progress is not linear, but because people are involved involves starts, stops and reversions. But I still am convinced that there is a trend that continues, and will continue short of global holocost.
Steve - OK - you have my attention -
".... began as an unprecedented association of events--including the domination of brown rats over black rats."
Can you guide me to something re: interconnected events and brown rats v black rats and the indust revo? I like to read history, especially things that changed how society and nations function.
And you are right - the industrial revolution is the path taken, and it is not reversible. My central Kansas farmer grandparents saw the first commercially available tractor (and retired the horse-drawn equipmemnt) and saw Neil Armstrong on the moon. Can't rewind that film clip. Technology has dramatically - and permanently - altered the social landscape, and overall raised the standard of living. Not everywhere, of course, and not for the better in every instance - those challenges still face us and always will.
Thanks
Kent
Atlanta
Brown rats are much less likely to carry bubonic plague--the black death, dramatically changing that source of economic cyclicality. The change happened as agricultural methods and building styles changed. The cause of the industrial revolution, no not hardly, but just one of the many things that helped nudge it along the way.
There is a long list of "Causes", from a sequence of good harvests, some innovations at the right time (there had been plenty of innovations at many times before, but not always falling on fertile ground), social changes, including the rise of the nation state, the "rise of the money economy", advances in Science in the 17th century, perhaps the Reformation and the subsequent Puritan revolution, even the rise of the middle class etc. All such "factors" have been given varying importance by economic historians along the way. This is a rather truncated list, excluding stage theories such as WW Rostow, and in a different part of the spectrum, the Marxian analysis.
Edited 11/9/2009 7:21 am ET by SteveSchoene
Steve - thanks.
Just finished re-reading Tuchman's Guns of August, and now I'm gonna dig through the bookshelves to find a book I have on the black death - don't remember the correct title, but its in there somewhere.
If you want stimulate thought on some of these big picture matters, You might look at Guns Germs, and Steel The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond, 1997.
Steve - I really liked Guns, Germs, and Steel - fascinating. However, his next book - Collapse - was not an objective, dispassionate analysis. Mr Diamond was up on his soap box. He is definitely much much smarter than me, but I did not even finish the book.
Hi mateI can remember as a youngster, timber being hauled down from the mountains via bullock drays and to the moon walk. That is an incredible span to be witnessed and I believe I have been privileged to see it. I wonder what the graph of technology advance to time looks like over the last 100 years?
It's going to be fascinating seeing robotics and nanotechnology develop.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
People are tribal at their core and technology has little to do with that other than to provide advantage to the strong. Gunpowder slightly altered that for a couple hundred years making the field far more level but I can’t get my hands on a spy satellite or a predator drone. And all that of course is assuming we can continue to support the technology, if it fails tribalism is sure to follow. Either way, republics fall and strongmen arise, I’ll place my bet on millennia of events that follow that cycle. <!----><!----><!---->
Interestingly enough Cambridge professor Sir M.M. Postan, one of the leading developers of medieval economic history has said "The English middle classes are as old as English history....", though obviously their numbers and influence have waxed and waned over the years.
We certainly do see the curse of tribalism lingering, particularly at the fringes of the modern world, but I am a long way from being convinced that that is inevitably our core.
One word for you...
Katrina
Yes, I suppose Brownie's Department of Homeland Security can be accused of reverting to tribal behavior.
While I understand that it is great fun to point out the previous administrations failings you have made my point for me. New Orleans reverted to a feudal state in less than 72 hours without the helping hand of big brother to keep it inline. Lawlessness and the strong/well armed ruled the day. Remove the leveling effect of government even for a short time and see what happens. Just look at Russia after the fall of communism, tribal behavior (oligarchies) flourished. It is how we operate when left to our own devices. <!----><!----><!---->
I think there is a definitional problem. To my mind, tribalism isn't the same as lawlessness, nor the terror of desperation; neither is the venality of the "system" that allowed the creation of the Russian oligarchs.
I would agree, in part, but had the situation in N.O. been allowed to continue much longer tribes would have been the result. As to Russia it was the lack of a system that allowed the tribes to prosper. Again showing that to be our default nature.
I don't anything tribal about the Russian oligarch's, which after all are uber-wealthy "capitalists", who essentially were allowed to buy, at less than fire sale prices, the large units of the former Soviet industrial structure, giving them virtually instant wealth after the very short period when it became clear that Russia wasn't going to totally dissolve. Oligarchy is just the industrial structure that remained with only a very few large enterprises in particular industries. When a few tried to mix political power with economic wealth they became tax felons and the government quite decidedly regained the assets and nipped any power play in the bud.
Steve + Napie - I like your civilized discussion of a complex issue. Thought-provoking on both sides. Nicely done.
If you don't mind my asking, could you tell us what your educational-professional backgrounds are? Nothing personal asked, just general background.
Also - Napie - sounds like you must have loved Lord of the Flies. Keep your conch shell handy, and your glasses carefully hidden!! (just joking - couldn't resist - apologies) :)
My academic training included a stint Piling it higher and Deeper in economic history--mostly US. After a time in academia, I shifted to work as a research analyst in several "wall street" type firms, including both a sell-side firm specializing in trading high yield bonds and an independent research boutique.
Woodworking helped, at least to an extent, to keep me sane while doing those things.
Edited 11/11/2009 4:20 pm ET by SteveSchoene
The school of hard knocks! After I got out of the service I went to work for and eventually bought a small mechanical contracting company that we built into a descent sized heavy commercial/light industrial firm and equipment rep agency. I found I had to read everything I could get my hands on just to keep up with the lawyers and accountants! After twenty-three years I sold it just prior to the economic meltdown so now I’m “retired”. I was fortunate; I never carried much debt and lived a simple life style so my great grandchildren will do OK from this if they are prudent. I do quite a bit of consulting in the industry, although now it is mostly shut-down work for firms that are going out of business. I have thought about going back to college (I did take a few classes) but at 48 I think I’m too old to do so.
I do like the “Lord of the Fly’s” but am more of an Ayn Rand kind of guy..
I'd like to second what you said about Steve and Napie. That was one of the best discussions and exchanges presented here.
Well done gentlemen.
Ralph,Yes,
As Pepé Le Pew would say,"I EXPECTORATE on the expectators!!!
I expectorate on all them, them cat-poles types!!
Pew, pew!!"BB
Edited 11/6/2009 2:31 pm by boilerbay
Well if it was bought 12 years ago We made and machined all the large aluminum parts, the base, fence, sliding fence, trunion and arm guard. It was assembled in Fayetteville NC at their B&D plant.
I agree with your assesment of stack em high and sell them cheap. We have all fallen into the trap in one way or another.Mark Rhodes
Vinworx.com
Custome Wine Celllars & Cabinets
<<It doesn't much matter to me, as these two companies had already carried that concept so far I stopped buying anything from either of them long ago.>>Same here.
A lot of negativity about this acquisition, but have any of you checked your stock portfolios for SWK? http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=114416&p=irol-stockquote
Well I guess it depends on what you are looking for. I think it is negative because I was hoping that the companies (delta and such) would get thier act together and start building good (not great just good) tools again.
Now if you are looking for them to make money I think they will do that. But to me that is not the only thing I am looking for.
Doug M
I don't think the negativity refers to the value or profitability of the company. It refers to the CRAP the two (now one) companies manufacture and sell.
Do you think now that the two have combined there will be an increase in quality in either product line?
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Mack:
Yesterday when BB came up with wallysaws, that was the funniest thing I'd heard yesterday. Now today another funny line; Do you think now that the two have combined there will be an increase in quality in either product line? You have a great day.
Mike
Not a chance, but you can bet the price for a lower quality product will go up.
While there is a strong pull from Wall Street but Steve Schoene makes a very valid point. We consumers want the lowest price and are reluctant to buy US made top of the line machines. Yes that's right - US made!
Take 4 Porter Cable machines - the 548 Bayonet saw, the 310 Trim Router, the 503 Worm Drive Belt Sander and the 314 Worm Drive Trim Saw as examples. Up unitl the last year or two - depending upon the model - all were made in the US. All commanded prices above $300 (except the 310 Trim Router). People who know like rugged, well built machines and bought them. And some of them trace their roots to the begining of PC (the 503 sander).
When B&D bought PC, those models were all discontinued - not enough volume. B&D is a mass marketer - been so since Nolan Archibald became CEO in the 80's. And quite frankly, most builders/contractors I know go for price first. And the Lie-Nielson crowd like the engineering of the European based products. So who is left to buy a 503 Belt Sander - the smaller number of furntiure/casegood manufacturers are still using thier old 503's they bought in the 50's and 60's (moral - build it cheaply so you can sell replacements - B&D's abuse of the fine DeWalt name is a good example).
Sales of old machines with a good heritage are selling briskly on ebay - 548 Bayonet Saws are going for $250 plus!
And don't forget that Stanley got bored with their power tool line in the early 80's - solid, well built machines. Sold the line to the Skil-Bosch partnership and SB maintained parts for 5 year, then discontinued all vestiges of Stanley machines.
I think we are on the same page - I own 2 of the PC tools you mention. I am happy to pay the going rate for quality tools. I think there are still a few PC items there that are on my "hands-down" list (690 for an example).
In all honesty, I shop at the local Ace for things they carry, rather than the Borg. I go to the Borg for things Ace doesn't have. Higher price? I think so, in many cases, but the quality of the store's customer service is superior.
A tragedy - I learned 12 years ago that Craftsman power tools were junk IMO. I have a couple low-end 45-yr-old Craftsman power tools my Dad gave me - jig saw, orbital sander. Don't use them, but MAN - metal housings, etc!!. Solid tools (but vibrate like heck). Have them up on a wall. I think (+ hope) they have reversed course, but my $$$ will never find out. Fool me once...... Still buy Craftsman ratchets, screwdrivers, etc, but not power tools. Their fault.
Buy the quality that fits your needs, regardless of origin. I have mickey-mouse label circ saw, and some other things - they do exaclty what I need them to do, because I need very little from them, and they were cheap-cheap.
On the other hand - not to toss a grenade over the wall or anything - Never owned a US automobile. Never will. Never owned an automatic transmission. Never will. I am hoping my offshore woodworking equipment has K-car steel in them, because that was the highest best use for those products. No Pinto steel, though - too many heat-treating cycles there.
Ask any marketing professional: Getting a new customber is hard. Keeping an existing customer is hard. Getting back a customer you lost - especially for a big-ticket item - is all but impossible.
Spend you money for the right quality to meet your needs. Origin matters not.
Edited 11/11/2009 1:13 pm ET by Spotcheck
As I write this, I'm looking at a vintage 50's Sears 6 x 48 belt sander and a 1/2" shaper. Not commercial, but still very heavy castings for homeower models - each weighs close to 100 lbs! The last of the really good Sears machines were made in the US by Emerson - late 70's, early 80's.
And while I have a few battery machines, for the torque, weight and balance in my hand, corded drills and screwguns still are my favorites. The machines can run all day long and still comfortably cool. Fifteen minutes with a 18 or 24 volt drill running a 1 inch ship auger in oak for a timber frame and you've got one hot battery (translate to shorter life span).
They say what goes around comes around - we shall see.
Ok, E - now I'm jealous. How 'bout a photo of the sears things?
Thanks
Kent
Edited 11/11/2009 1:49 pm ET by Spotcheck
boiler:
"I guess all the resulting tools will come shrink wrapped with peg holes."
Now THAT was clever :)
Rich;
I guess at this time it is hard to say if this is a good thing or a bad thing. That being said I can't foresee Stanley improving the quality of B&D tools. Lets hope they don't start selling Delta Unisaws at Wal-Mart.
Mike
"......I can't forsee Stanley improve the quality of B&D tools."
On the contrary, I can't forsee Stanley worsen the quality of B&D tools. I know what you mean.
<<
"......I can't forsee Stanley improve the quality of B&D tools."On the contrary, I can't forsee Stanley worsen the quality of B&D tools. I know what you mean.
>>too true. back in the early 70s, i bought my first power tools, B&D 1/4" drill, sabre saw, and 7 1/4" circular saw. those tools held up for a long time, and worked really well (built lots of props and stage sets). when i upgraded in the 90s, i passed my old B&D tools to a cousin. recently, i saw some of the new B&D power tools on display in a store and had to have a look. i just can't believe how far they've fallen...stanley just reintroduced the sweetheart planes (haven't seen one yet though) as high-end tools, so maybe there's room in their corporate strategy for quality improvement in some of the other lines too.cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
I can see it now...
toaster ovens, coffee makers, waffle irons and Wallysaws.
I can see it now...toaster ovens, coffee makers, waffle irons and Wallysaws.
Wallysaws that's the funniest thing I've heard all day. You have a great day BB.
Mike
Mike,You to.(I love this kind of thread :)BB
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