Hi,
I am making doors for a cabinet from walnut. The construction is cope and stick frame and panel, with solid walnut panel center. I used Space Balls to hold the panel centered in the slot. There appears to be an liquid or oily stain leaching into the solid walnut panel at each point that it contacts the rubber Space Ball. The top and bottom of the panel with the end grain have the worst staining. I have wiped it away with acetone, but it comes back in about a week. Has anyone else seen this issue with Space Balls? Would it be safe to clean off the stain with acetone, then proceed right away with the first step of my finish, General Finishes Gel Stain?
Thanks,
John
Replies
Oh man I feel sorry for you ! What a shame. All that work. I heard a similar sort of related problem where a bunch of church kids stuck post it notes all over a pastor's car as a joke. They made the mistake of leaving them on a while because it was fun to drive around with them on.
Left a permanent stain similar to yours where each had stuck to the car.
Sorry. No solutions here.
Did you call the company ?
Oh man . . . good luck.
PS: maybe duplicate the problem on scrap and apply oil , linseed or what have you, and see if it all just blends together.
I've never used spaceballs, but I had a similar problem when I put my laptop on the desk I made. The laptop sits on 4 rubber pads and they leached something into the shellac that faintly shows up if you look at it at the right angle. Now my laptop always sits on a book to keep it off the desk. I worry that whatever is in the spaceballs will keep leaching out forever. I'd be very cautious as it might interfere with the finish or become a permanent stain.
Computer feet brand ?
Please tell me what computer you have. I have a Mac Book Air that has four rubber feet like you describe. To allow good air circulation when I have it on my lap I put it on a clip board with the metal clip removed so most of the time I set the clip board on the table.
PS: the clip board seems to be tempered Masonite . I see no stains and have used it daily this way for more than a year. Of coarse I am not contradicting what you are saying or saying the Apple is any better just the simple fact that tempered board resisted the problem.
John,
Like Roc, I feel sorry about what happened. You asked "Would it be safe .......?" Unfortunately, the answer is "You'll never know until you try." Then it is too late. But when you find out, you should post so that others don't make the same mistake.
I work part time at a Woodcraft, because it is fun and I learn a lot ----- like your situation. The store is filled with "gadgets" - expensive little things that promise to make woodworker's lives easier. Unfortunately, as you found out, these gadgets all come with an unstated cost. They solve one problem but cause another.
I have a general suggestion for you. Stop and think of the men who made nice cabinets back in the 1700s. Did they have space balls?
In woodworking, I find it best to think KISS - "Keep It Simple, Stupid!". I tell myself that all the time.
There is a class of folks who come into Woodcraft who can be described as nonwoodworkers who have taken a small problem and made it a real big one, and now want a simple solution to get out of it. There is almost never a simple solution once the problem has been made complex.
But, when you stop to think about it, all woodworkers face problems. There is no way to make new joints and new processes and not make mistakes that you won't make later. Each of these is a learning experience. All you are out is a little time and a little wood. For us hobbyists, time is cheap. For the most part, wood is pretty cheap too. If you don't think so, go to a hospital and have an operation.
So much for philosophy. So what can you do? Do what I do. Do what the US did in Vietnam. "LEAVE WITH HONOR!". Look proudly on your project as "an opportunity for self edification" - a mere step towards becoming a better person. Finish the piece and when the little stains occur, use them as the alcoholic uses the coin he got at AA which he keeps in his pocket - as a reminder that with woodworking as with any other addiction, such as alcohol, we must take it ONE DAY AT A TIME.
If others notice the "Stains" after the piece is on display, make up a wonderful story. This is an exercise in creativity and could possibly result in a TV series about woodworking. You could become wealthy because of this. When someone asks about the stain, use a tone of disdain and browbeat the offending person, "WHAT, 'a stain' you say!!!!!! Do you know how hard I worked to get those subtle effects of gradations of color?!?!?!?! Do you know the skill it took to achieve that? Do you know how much work was involved in achieving that effect? Do you know that that effect has only been achieved two other times in the history of woodworking? I believe that before long, you will be seeing it on the cover of Fine Woodworking."
Given the high respect that most people have for woodworkers, a respect that borders on hero-worship, that person who asked about the 'stain' will, in the future, offer you high sums of money for a piece of your work, BUT ONLY IF IT CONTAINS THOSE subtle and deliberate gradations of color.
You know, John, sometimes when a person asks a question on Knots, they don't get back any responses of value. I believe that is what has happened to you so far. Roc and I have merely written to let you know that we have done similar things, and we feel your pain. I hope this poor attempt at humor will brighten your day as you crawl out of the abyss that you have created by using Space Balls, and that you will never use these things again. Do what the great 17th century furniture makers did, and just use skill and good practices to make masterpieces. Leave the space balls to woodworkers who are looking to achieve perfection through technology insted of skill, and who will pay the price.
May your life get happier day by day. May you never have to read a message this long again.
May the Bird of Paradise fly up someone else's nose.
Rest well, knowing that you are in an elite brotherhood - the fraternity of WOODWORKERS! The rest of us will ease your burden by sharing your pain, while you recover from this small mistep and continue on your road to woodworking greatness.
Shalom, brother. Stiff upper lip, you know. Eh, wot!
Mel
Contact Space Balls
Since it doesn't sound as though you have applied any finish, the only likely explanation is that the balls themselves are leaching out some chemical, most likely an additive called a plasticizer, an oily compound added to basic plastics to keep them flexible. This shouldn't be happening and the compound will very likely have an effect on whatever finish is applied over it. The first thing to do is get in touch with the company that makes the Space Balls, they would be the only knowledgable source of information about this.
You are seeing this on the end grain sections of the panels because end grain is much more porous than the edges. No amount of wiping with a solvent will remove all of the compound and will spread the remainder further into the wood so wiping with acetone isn't likely to solve the problem.
Also, despite the advertising, Space Balls are a complete waste of time on the tops and bottoms of panels, the panels don't expand in that direction so they serve no purpose.
greasy Space Balls
John,
Thanks to you and everyone else who responded. I will call the maker of Space Balls to complain, and then round file the rest of the package. I will have to remake the door. At least I didn't glue up the second door, so only have to remake one. This is a good lesson in "don't believe everything that you read". Grr.
Thanks,
John
talked to manufacturer
Gang,
I spoke with Spaceballs manufacturer and they said that I compressed the balls too much. The information that I had said you should design your panel size so that the ball is compressed to about half its size. The man from Spaceballs said that they design panels so that the balls are only compressed 1/16". He has not tested it, but said other customers that had this issue said that it blended away with an oil based wood stain. My first step in finishing is oil based gel stain. I will report back to Knots once I try to stain it. Balls!
Thanks,
John
John,
The SpaceBall manufacturer told you that you compressed the balls too much. IF they know there is a problem, they should put a warning on each package DO NOT OVER COMPRESS, but then no one would buy them. I wouldn't have recommended calling the manufacturer. Except for places like LN and LV, it rarely gets you anything except angry.
I haven't read spaceball instructions in years. I thought about using them a long time ago. As I remember, they recommended putting them on top and bottom as well as the sides, but as John said, putting them on the top and bottom is useless. I think I remember wondering about the folks who wrote those instructions when I read them. Luckily I regained my senses and just did without.
Keep us posted. Have fun,
Mel
It is safe to assume that any soft(ish) plastic or rubber contains plasticiser. For non-chemists, think "a sort of oily solvent".
I once spent 2 months purifying and trying to identify what I assumed was a plant natural product which turned out to be plasticiser leached out of 6" of supposedly top quality, totally inert, laboratory grade plastic narrow bore tubing. :-(
If it isn't absolutely necessary, skip it
My computer is a Dell. My guess is any other computer with similar pads would do the same thing.
I'll echo the comments of others, Spaceballs, while a great movie, are not needed for frame and panels. I just finished some frame and panel doors for a desk and didn't use anything to keep the doors in place other than friction in the grooves. If you're worried about expansion and contraction, pre-finish the panels.
space balls
We've been using them for 5 or 6 years and have had no problems. We make about 50 doors a week in various woods including walnut. We compress them about 1/16 as suggested.
Alan
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