As some of you know, I hang out over at Breaktime as well as here. As you know also know (unless you’ve been spending entirely too much time in the shop <G>), Taunton has switched forum software, which has been implemented in Cook’s Talk and Breaktime.
I’m not complaining about Taunton doing this — I’m sure they have reasons, and good ones at that. I wish ’em well.
However, after spending an hour or so in Breaktime today, it seems like it is, er, less than user friendly — WAY less. I just can’t seem to get the knack of quickly picking out threads I can productively contribute to, and/or quickly moving to threads and posts I haven’t yet seen. It was taking me much too long, and I was sifting through way much too much stuff that was irrelevant to me to get to stuff that interested me, to make it worth my while.
I’ll keep trying for a while, hoping that solutions can be found that make the site easier, faster and more efficient to use, but if things don’t improve — a lot — I’ll not likely be around much any more once the cutover happens.
So, I just wanted to say it’s been nice “knowing” y’all, and thanks for all the info you’ve shared over the years.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Replies
No preview panel. That's no fun!
Bobby
Sad to hear it.
I guess they say, all good things come to an end. Que sera sera.
Here's hoping that in this internet age, someone will come up with a forum we can all enjoy and contribut to again soon because I'm right with you - unless they fix up the new offering extensively, I won't be bothering with it either.
Saw Mill Creek is pretty decent, btw.
Take it easy.
It's interesting how many complaints there are on other forums about BT. Even one on JLC. The format is so bad it's not worth the effort to post on it.The complaints seem pretty common sense. The other forums, Cooks' Talk, etc. must have had similar. I wonder why they weren't instituted on BT, or if the BT complaints will be rectified here.John
Edited 12/10/2009 12:36 pm by JohnCujie
go here and prosper
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
http://www.mvflaim.com
I'm way ahead of you. Already there. I notice that BTC is trying to include Knots and Cook's as well by including one folder for each. I appreciate the effort, but doubt it'll work for long. Still, I'll be there as long as it's reasonably functional and the "old guard" sticks around.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Agreed. It's going to be awkward with competing subjects within the same forum.
But I know how you feel. I ran a forum on About.com for several years. They got bought by the NYTimes and changed from a delphi type to one similar to the new one coming here. It pretty well killed the forum. Their feeling was they felt they made no money from the forum so they weren't going to spend money on it.
Denny
Mike & All,Hope to see you all again between these two forums (Delphi & Taunton).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I think BTC might be a really fun forum because it's not heavily monitored like Taunton forums so you get some really risque posts (which I like the best because I'm somewhat immature). It'll be interesting to see how it develops.
http://www.mvflaim.com
I'm not a computer whiz, so I can't tell you how they did it but, the Breaktime Classic is perfect. Maybe someone will step up and do the same (Knots Classic# and I'll see you all there.
Edit; Oops, I should have read the rest of the posts. I see my comment has already been addressed.
It's really to bad though, I will probably not renew my magazine or an line subscriptions. Hope something new comes along.
Although I am not what you would call a prolific poster on Knots, I have tried to keep my posts relevant #sometimes I have been opinionated, who hasn't?#. I have really enjoyed reading the posts here and feel as though we are like close group of friends. I will miss you all, even those I don't always see eye-to-eye with. You have all made valuable contributions to a wonderful community and I hope to meet you again on a forum that is as user friendly at this one.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Edited 12/12/2009 8:41 am ET by salamfam
Mike
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you regarding the future of both Breaktime and The Knots. I can't begin to tell how much I learned from the guys over at Breaktime. I remodeled an entire old home by myself, and when odd occasion came along where I needed advice, I got it from the guys over there within a day.
I spent 30 minutes or so trying to figure out which end was up over there, and I got completely confused. At least, that's my take.
Hopefully, I will run into you, and other friendly sorts, at another forum or two out there in cyberspace. I have so many other better things to do than waste time trying to navigate through a user-unfriendly format like what's about to hit our beloved "Knots" right between the eyes. Maybe we're wrong, and it'll get easier to find threads we're looking for, but I doubt it.
Take care, and Happy Holidays,
Jeff
Edited 12/13/2009 10:50 am ET by JeffHeath
Yep, those guys over there helped walk me through replacing rotten sill plate on an old garage - sketches, diagrams, offer of use of tools, you name it.
I find it interesting that Knots is still here in a usable format while Breaktime and the others have been moved to this new Drupal thing. I was first introduced to Fine Woodworking way back when the covers were in black and white. I think it was the first of the "Fine" publications.
Having spent 30 years in the IT field, I have great sympathy for migrating systems with hundreds or thousands of users. The computer industry literature is filled with stories of business ending disasters. That said, I am still puzzled how this move was even considered when the popular opinion seems to be so universally negative. There must have been a huge financial incentive for going forward but I would still expect to see SOME benefits in addition. I can't recall hearing of anything to look forward to with the exception of "a new look."
I'm still puzzled but will hang around for awhile in hopes of seeing a breakthrough...
Sawyer
They're doing one forum at a time. First the cooks, then the contractors. Soon the woodworkers.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I'm right behind you......really sad......didn't have to go like this.......
It is an unfortunate decision that Taunton has made, and I hope that the Admins, after reading posts like yours, reconsider the effort. I am with you and cannot bother with a forum that is so hard to decipher.
I've been reading knots for about five months only and am probably considered to new to really comment much which is why I've been adding or taking from discussions now only twice (including this post). I checked out Delphi and am confused why anyone would want to switch from a woodworking forum that is about woodworking for and by woodworkers and the like to a forum that is catering to anyone who wants to join - the current topic was about sex and there are topics for homework help that have nothing to do with woodworking. That is not for me, I will hang out here and try the new format for awhile, those who stay will slowly love it and think it is the way it should have always been. Sorry to see anyone go, but change happens and often the first step isn't a better one but one that will lead to another and another until all steps have lead to where we want to be. That's my .02 -
Mike Hennessy..
I for one will miss your comment ALOT.. Life is to short to get upset about this change!
Really! I will miss you.
Edited 12/10/2009 10:48 pm by WillGeorge
That's my problem, life IS too short. I rely on Knots advice for just about every project I undertake at some point or another. Whether it's finishing or the best choice of wood or even a design change, I get my woodworking education from all of the contributors on Knots. For me it's like school is about to close and I'm on my own now. Some of you I've gotten to know a bit and I loath having to find a new school. I'm bummed,Jim
Edited 12/10/2009 11:53 pm ET by James R.
I'm bummed.. So am I. I lost my wonderful wife back in 1989.. I still love her to this moment in time. She was sort of like Knots,,, I could talk to her and get stupid and the perfect answer to any question I asked of her! It was my choice to pick out what she said to me..
No better folks than Knots.. I'd say...
EDIT: I for one will stay here if I am allowed in here. I do go off the deep end on some comments I read.
Edited 12/11/2009 12:16 am by WillGeorge
buhbye
I can't imagine losing my wife, I'm not sure how I'd manage. It must be difficult every day. I imagine it might be less traumatic with time, but from what you said it never goes away. You have my deepest sympathyHere's hoping a lot of us stay here. I need all the help I can get.Jim
Edited 12/11/2009 1:24 am ET by James R.
BTW, I lived in Chicago, Lincolnwood actually, as a kid. 1948 to about 52. I still love Chicago and I visit even though I no longer know anyone there. Great town. Took my wife there a few years ago and showed her where I lived. The people living there asked us in. I was a great experience.Jim
"Life is to short to get upset about this change!"
I'm not upset -- just being realistic. Unless the current Breaktime format is very preliminary, and things change a lot, I just don't see myself enduring the pain of negotiating that style of forum. So I expect I'll be pretty scarce in these parts once the changeover hits. So I wanted to tip my virtual hat 'goodbye' to my Knots friends as well as any Taunton-ites who happen upon this thread. I've learned a few things here, and in Taunton's mags, and I'm thankful for that and grateful to Taunton and to various and sundry Knot-heads for what I've gained over the years. (Yes, I still have that balck & white FWW issue with the segmented bowl on the cover.)
Like I said, it's Taunton's sandbox, and they have a perfect right to fill it with whatever they want, be it sand or slush. Totally their call, and no hard feelings on this end. But I just don't think I'll feel like playing in the slush.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike,
An hour!!! You spent and hour at Breaktime and now you are off to the hills. Now there is a test case that needs some serious documentation, not a mere farewell note.
Your pain and anguish caused me to go and take a look. We needed another pain and anguish thread like we need stringy glue.
My goodness your tolerance level must be pathetically low to have caused you to fire up yet another throat moan (Lataxe 2009).
As you have chosen to draw your line, I hope you have the courage to stay on your side, not like others who just cannot resist the opportunity chime in and tell us how it use to be and how it isn't like that..... on and on ad nauseam.
I am going to give the fine people who sponsor the free for all to get comfortable with the software, then start making it truly support the endeavor. Any of you who think enterprise wide software is perfect right out of the box are living outside of reality. No on e has excess funds to customize so they take a leap of faith the the package they bought will do the job.
Wrong. I and others on this forum have been involved in software deployments that have taken months , even years and millions even tens of million's just to get to the point of hitting the on switch!
The fine folks on this deployment team have fast tracked this conversion and full marks to them. This is a huge undertaking that is likely on a very tight budget.
Those of you who have been so totally inconvenienced, insulted, cast out from your comfortable little world have absolutely no comprehension of what is going on in the background.
The most disgusting theme in all of the discussions to date is the focus on "my personal comfort" and how the pack of dissatisfied have turned on the people who make this forum available AT NO CHARGE.
There has been discussion from the conversion team that this software can be altered. Can we wait a few days for things to stabilize? Oh no we have to have it NOW. Cause why - some of us are customers and deserve to be heard! Some just have to flap away because.
Anyway, do carry on. I am sure you and the others will heal. But please, please, please do not poke in with the "that's why I don't come here any longer" level of BS that has become somewhat habitual for some.
Don
You mistake me, sir. I am not complaining. I just didn't want to disappear without saying my 'fare thee well'. And as I said, my hat's off to Taunton and all they have provided for me and a lot of others. It's just that, unless things change a whole lot (more than a few "tweaks"), the new forum software's just not my cup 'o tea, so I won't likely be partaking. YMMV.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I think not. Your wrapping is just a bit thicker.Don
>>"Any of you who think enterprise wide software is perfect right out of the...."This is not a case where entrerprise-wide software is being changed. ITs a case in which the forum-sponsoring software is being changed.And that is a HUGE difference.>>"I and others on this forum have been involved in software deployments that have taken months , even years and millions even tens of million's ....."Yeah, me too. For a dozen years, I was part of a small team (6) that oversaw the systems of a fortune 50, with more than 8-Billion in annual sales.Wanna bet that none of my implementations went this bad?
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
"This is not a case where entrerprise-wide software is being changed. ITs a case in which the forum-sponsoring software is being changed.And that is a HUGE difference."Depends on resourcing. They are rolling out across a number of forums. That is a huger difference if your resources are limited."Yeah, me too. For a dozen years, I was part of a small team (6) that oversaw the systems of a fortune 50, with more than 8-Billion in annual sales.Wanna bet that none of my implementations went this bad?"Again it depends on resourcing if you truly believe this is going badly.
Did a Fortune 50 company on a team of 6 did you? You probably didn't have time to pee let alone implement.Don
>>"Again it depends on resourcing if you truly believe this is going badly. "I'm not the only one who seems to think that this is going badly. One of the most stalwart, conservative members of the Breaktime community (65 thousnand posts -- yes, 65 thousand) has said that it will probably have him "slowing down".>>"Did a Fortune 50 company on a team of 6 did you? You probably didn't have time to pee let alone implement."I had time to assure that implementations did not have this level of difficulty. FWIW, if ANY of my implementations had this level of difficulty, two things would have happened. Thousands of people would have been standing around without work (yes, thousands) at least temporarily; and my company would have been "backcharged" for that downtime. That's how the contracts were written -- if I screwed up and caused a customer downtime, my company paid.And yes, downtime for a single customer location was thousands of workers, standing on the assembly line with their fingers in their noses.So, I'll ask again -- how many of my implementations do you think went as badly as this one has?(Hint -- the answer is a number less than one.)
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
You have really got the significance of this transition scaled out of proportion haven't you?This is a discussion forum. Where is all of the pain coming from? What is this costing you? Why is it so difficult to just sit back or go to the shop and cut some slack to these people?Don
>>"You have really got the significance of this transition scaled out of proportion haven't you?"I don't believe that I do.Because the transition, if it goes as the others have, will cause a significant loss of readership.And lost readership will cause lost content.Which will have a further effect on readership.So for me, the possibility is that we all could lose a valuable resource. Which is significant.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
It amazes me the constant diminishing of anothers feelings of loss.
I feel and share your "real" pain and loss of something that starts your day as does mine.
One doesn't have to loose a foot to feel pain. If we loose a loved one do we not feel pain? When we loose a leader, political figure, do we not feel pain? When we work years on our home and suffer a fire , do we not feel pain?
Pain is not only physical but emotional, sometimes both. Those that criticize you for your pain,our pain, fail themselves with their lack of empathy.
>>"I feel and share your "real" pain and loss ....."For me the pain is not at all similar to the loss of a friend. It's much more like losing the use of a great tool or other resource.Here's a great analogy -- losing Breaktime and Knots, for me, would be at least as bad as losing my local library, and Wikipedia at the same time.Because both have been valuable resources over the years.I'm still here at Knots because it has not lost its functionality.I've stopped in briefly at Breaktime each day sine the change, but I used to read virtually every post there. I learned TONS, and contributed what I could. But it's just too much like work now.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
I believe I can say what might be going in Taunton's thought process. The Forum has become dominated by a relatively small group of people that take the 'forum life' way too seriously (Knotheads). They club up, resist outsiders, post so frequently as to squelch any semblance of diversity, and have quietly driven off the masses while they gird the playhouse. Is it not a little scary that some of these complaint posts appear to be tapped out through tears? Taunton has determined to expand the marketability of every product they control. This means they will drive off the Knotheads and replace with a more diverse, lower entry threshold, democratic and - most importantly - easily marketed crowd. Look to the evolution of the magazine for an idea of how this works. Acornw
Actually, if you leave, you're no longer a Knothead.So Taunton isn't "driving off Knotheads." :)
I have to agree with much of what you've written in your first paragraph. I've been watching both this forum and Breaktime for about 7 years and your comments fit the forums like comfortable old socks. They really have transformed into social clubs dominated by a select few heavy users, a normal evolution for online fora I think.There is wheat interspersed amongst the chaff but it has long been becoming apparent that it isn't worth the effort required to sift it out. Unless one embraces the social mores of the club and aspires to join it, there really isn't a lot of reason to keep coming back. The new format is the straw that breaks my back. It is far too difficult to navigate and far too unwieldy to use for what little it returns.All you folks that belittle those who are disappointed in the change and who intend to hang on to your comfortable club come bells or high water, well, good luck and you all have fun now!
Edited 12/13/2009 1:07 am by observer
o,
before you go, please tell us where lotusland is.
eef
Ummm, we'll see how you like it when you want to navigate a really long thread. No one at Cooks Talk "wants" to leave. And we are going back and forth with the new forum and one that has our old features trying to be constructive in getting a functional forum from the mess they have put up for us to deal with. AND much does NOT work--like time stamps, etc.
Gretchen
Gretchen,Is there any part of the new forum on CT that you'all (too many years in Atlanta) find improved? A general consensus you see being picked up on?
(trying to see if there are any positives here to build on)
I have looked at CT and Breaktime but not deeply and I suppose I haven't given them a fair look. Although I'm on Lumberjacks, I find it too confusing to really take seriously.Take careBB
(old dog looking to learn new tricks -- just not stupid people ones)
Not Gretchen, but another long term (7+years) CTer. The ONLY thing I found for the better is that you will have a 4MB limit per attachment.I used to go there several times a day. I lasted a 4 or 5 days in the new format. It is simply, in my view, the worst navigation I have ever seen in a web site. Bar none.As to the folks here who would call us whiners, I can only smile.
I will come back a week after the changeover and look for all the positives you may have found.Cheers,Peter
Not Gretchen but another longtime CTer, the one thing I think is better is how photos can be viewed as a slide show--they show in the post as a thumbnail, then when you click on one the slideshow launches.
Other than that, no I have yet to see any improvement in function vs the old CT.
Well that's a start. We have had several multiple how tos by some of our better posters and this would make it more convenient to view their "multiples. Can you down load the show?ThanksBB
I'm not sure, it opened in sort of a half window, and I just used it once. We're all decamped at CT Classic awaiting improvements to the site so we can go back and use it. Right now it's just not worth the time one wastes trying to converse or locate conversations.
But the slideshow was a lot easier than opening multiple JPEGs in a post, and I would think you'd find that useful at FWW because you want to show a piece's progression, right?
Gretchen,
You are not listening. Someone else threw this "wait till you don't like it" or some other nonsense at me.
I have never taken the position that I will stick with this come hell or high water. I have a good life now, I had a good life before I signed on to Knots which was a number of years after I started subscribing to FWW. I love FWW, Knots on the other hand can stop dead in its tracks tomorrow if it has to. It will be to bad but my life will go on.
It is a resource, nothing more, nothing less.I have both my magazine subscription and my online subscription. My first search is via the magazine archives. Knotts is a great virtual coffee shop or neighborhood pub. Can you imagine sharing a pint with some of these characters? There is some great information shared and a wonderful way for some very talented individuals to showcase their work.
*************************
I have only ever asked for all of the doom and gloom to stop, to allow the Taunton folks to do what they have to do. Matt Kenney says it will be similar to Woodjocks. If this is the case, then just please let them do their job. If it take a month or 2 to get the kinks out, so be it.
***************************
If you want it sooner, then lets all - not some but all start paying for the service. No payment, no service. Have I been insensitive - yes. The chorus of doom and despair that has risen from the Throng of the Betrayed is
filling the Taunton servers with drivel. Makes me think there is some level of addiction to the way the site is structured.
(Matt/Gina: maybe you ought to think about selling this stuff!!)
Could this have been executed better - yes. I ask again is this the end of the world? Hardly
If we don't have our little virtual coffee sessions in as perfect a way as they have been is it the end? Not for me,
probably not for any of us if we would keep our collective head on our shoulders.
There are many forums, many sources of information. I even read a suggestion that some house builder relied on Breaktime for business purposes. Wow, can you imagine running your business based on info from people who have no name, no address. At one time you could get a divinity degree through and address on a book of matches, but a journeyman carpenters ticket through Breaktime???? Sorry, but crap like this is just to far out there to be taken seriously. Any way I am now filling the server with my trollish views of the seriousness of the virtual world.Don
Maybe FWW is different, but at CT we actually have many many of the posters, we know their names, we know where they live, we know their addresses and we get together fairly frequently.
It's sad that you would characterize wanting to preserve strong friendships as some kind of addiction. Perhaps that is how your relationships work, but not ours.
And I haven't seen any doom and gloom on CT, just vocal feedback about what's not working well and what we want changed. Robyn has been appreciative of that, she doesn't seem to find it's drivel.
"It's sad that you would characterize wanting to preserve strong friendships as some kind of addiction. Perhaps that is how your relationships work, but not ours."Whoa. I never said anything of the sort. I spoke of site structure NOT strong friendships and or content. If the friendships cannot survive the look and feel (read Site Structure)of the virtual meeting place, how strong are they? This and any other forum site can go down tomorrow. And who holds the contact info? The group or the site owner? You can easily find your friends in here, how about out there? Every close group should have an alternate plan. "And I haven't seen any doom and gloom on CT, just vocal feedback about what's not working well and what we want changed. Robyn has been appreciative of that, she doesn't seem to find it's drivel."This is good. There is more than enough (doom & gloom type of drivel) here and Knots hasn't even been switched. Maybe if Knots were changed there would be more focus on enhancing the new format. The changes would likely be similar for each forum.DonDon
Well fortunately our alternate plan is up and running so we're cool. And about 200 people have become members at CT classic all through our offsite grapevine.
So the friendships will continue, but for the first several days after the switchover (which BTW we rec'd FAR less warning and info about what and when it would happen than you've gotten here), we all quickly realized we could no longer converse readily through the site, and we didn't have our Plan B in place, so we were bummed.
Plus you must realize that Dec is prime cooking season, so the need to easily exchange information/techniques/recipes is essential. This couldn't have happened at a worse time, sort of like overhauling a CPA's internal sorftware on April 13. Woodworking is probably more spaced out over the course of the year, but cooking peaks in December for most cooking enthusiasts.
Mike:
The present Knots forum, with its topics arrayed on the left with most recent threads showing where one has contributed is the best forum layout I have experienced, bar none.
The Felder forum works because it is just one long thread and there are not too many posters. But for forums with a lot of topics such as Knots it is a pain to have to navigate back to the top menu to get to another topic.
Just as you said, I suspect that my time on Knots will be much shorter as a direct result of this change. And that will be a major source of regret.
Hastings
I took just a few minutes to go over to Break Time and
found it to be less than intuitive. I do hope that Knots will not
have the same look & feel in the near future.A previous poster's passionate response stated that
most of us do not know what goes on behind the scenes.
He suggested that we should embrace change for something
that is free... etc. I respectfully disagree.I was a senior IT manager for many years and DO UNDERSTAND
what goes on and how difficult it is to upgrade hardware,
software and platforms all to well.What it boils down to is this:If you build it (the way "they" want it), They will come.
If you don't, "They" will go elsewhere. Free or not.We can complain - and we have. A good customer complains,
a bad customer just goes away. Those who have complained
actually care about this site and it's participants. Kudos to
those that have spoken out constructively!Taunton can choose to listen and respond, or not. As someone
previously stated, It is their sandbox and they can do as they please.
If we don't like it - we go elsewhere.We'll miss what we had - if we do lose it. But we'll manage to
re-group elsewhere... eventually... (sigh).I'll give it some time because I value your input. But if you're not
here - then there's no incentive to stay.Just my 2¢ folks...Bill-
Edited 12/11/2009 9:59 am ET by Woodrat1
Sorry Bill that is a $.02 cop out. If you were indeed manger of said projects then you would have a better sense for budgets and timelines. And since you are, as the rest of us are, looking in from way outside, you know nothing about this specific project. "If you build it (the way "they" want it), They will come."
And you ran every project like this didn't you? Right from day 1, perfection, no compromise for any user?You are right in there with the moaning takers.Don
Don,I was “indeed a manager of said projects” and do have
a sense of budgets and timelines.I managed 4 million dollars is assets and a 1 million
dollar (cash) budget. My customers / users were all
internal employees of the company.All migration projects started with the same questions
of my “customers”.- What do you need?
- When do you need it?
- What is your budget?Then the compromises begin.
There were always compromises.All projects are driven by a need. That need may be
to stay current with technology, remain competitive,
security reasons, reduce costs, etc. Change is driven
by need.Do I know the specifics about the Knots migration?
Nope – sure don’t. But I can assure you that the change
is driven by some need that Taunton has.I obviously must state that internal customers (employees
of a company) are very different from retail customers.
In this case the retail customers are Knots participants.If a company is offering goods or services that no one wants,
needs or likes – they lose customers. Remember the Ford Edsel?If a company once offered goods or services that people
liked / wanted then changed what they offered which their
customers didn’t like – they lost customers.It’s sort of like some of the tool manufacturers we here in
Knots liked but don’t anymore. It’s all pretty basic.I have no intention of engaging you in personal assaults.
You have lost your objectivity and are no longer carrying on
on a civil and constructive conversation.With that, I do wish you peace and calm.Bill-
Well Bill, I am sorry if you felt personally assaulted. I really felt that with your background that you might have contributed in a more positive manner rather than yet another high handed, fist on the table demand for instant gratification.Peace to you as well.Don
>>"....might have contributed in a more positive manner rather than yet another high handed, fist on the table demand for instant gratification."And here I thought that all he was expressing was a desire to have this system change go as smoothly as the ones that he has overseen in the past.Much like me.Apparently, your mileage varies.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Bill,It's no profit to argue with a troll. Such folk drive off more posters than any forum change ever will. Ignore him and he will descend beneath his bridge.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
G,
That was unworthy of you.
Like Don I feel that many fellows have lost a sense of proportion with all this squeaking and hand-wringing about changes to a familliar and comforting screen or two.
"Pain" is when you break a bone, get a serious infection, lose at love, lose a friend to the grim reaper. What you feel when a website forum changes its style to one that loses you a minute or two of navigation time or tips you out of your comfort zone is "mild irritation". If its more than that then Dr Lataxe suggests a bit of introspection to see what other life-frustrations are being displaced on to Taunton, such that major hissy fits are being indulged in at a tiny little change to a mere website forum.
In short, one feels that some fellows really ought to stop with the teenage tandrums and grow up.
Of course, if they want to disband from a very knowledgeable and useful community, this will be mostly their loss. But one suspects they will still be here in a few months, when all they can find in the "moaners' corners" being set up here and there is..... a lot of moaning.
Lataxe, who uses media for the content, not the packaging.
L,Unworthy?“…your tolerance level must be pathetically low…”“Your wrapping is just a bit thicker…”“…that is a $.02 cop out…”“You are right in there with the moaning takers.”“…another high handed, fist on the table demand for instant gratification.”Above are selected quotes from the poster in question. Ad hominem attacks on persons, rather than positions, is the language of the troll. The fact that you agree with the sentiments does not alter their intent, nor excuse their lack of amity.It is hypocritical to inveigh against "teenage tandrums" (sic) while employing adolescent (juvenile?) tactics in the enterprise. Dr. Glaucon suggests a bit of introspection to Dr. Lataxe: Physician, heal thyself- whatsoever we have heard done in posting, do also here in thy reply (with apologies to St. Luke).
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
G,
I have been indulging myself in a bout of micky at the expense of those with forum change angst, it's true. I learnt the tactic long ago when I was a parent of somewhat oversensitive teenage girls, who nevertheless responded best to a few prods at their posturing and posing in primadonna style. And naturally, they gave me the same effective ego-pricking treatment when I overdid the pompous father routine.
It's the way, in our rough North British society - most effective at introducing that sense of proportion about the world and its frustrations; that important understanding that the world at large is rarely interested in out huffs and hissy fits, at which point we get over it.
I suppose the other tactic is to be amiable and understanding of the angst-ridden fellows, like a social worker. Personally I feel this really would be condescending. One suspects those who are getting their Michaels extracted prefer a bit of honest opposition; even the odd poke in the rib. After all, they may then poke back and feel better.
To see ourselves as others see us. This is usually difficult without a degree of honest attention-reinforcement of the alien viewpoint.
Anyway, I accept your charges of amity-lack and even hypocracy, in this instance (I am moaning about moaners, after all). But I am putting off repentence just yet. :-)
Lataxe, a running dog.
My dear Lataxe,I will probably see you over at the "Knots Classic" after you have tried the NEW IMPROVED Taunton site.$0.02 says you will last a week at the most here.See ya there...Cheers,Peter
Glaucon,I see you are keeping the score card for the Throng of the Betrayed. A worthy undertaking. Well I guess I should apologize but since when to trolls even contemplate a concept that they cannot spell?I can see this change has the potential to be life altering for a number of contributors. I do find it interesting that the Throng of the Betrayed finds it acceptable to hurl all sorts phlegm at the site owners somewhat anonymously, and any notion that some of us might question the "end of the world" mentality being promoted by a very vocal and agitated following is met with the same level of "ad hominem personal attacks at you decry in your score card.I did not feel I attacked anyone personally, just the stupid "end of the world" position that permeates the posts of the Throng!
Yet you have called me a Troll. You have not the ability to challenge my position because sitting back and letting the people charged with doing the job do the job contains no chaos, no woe is me, no I can't find my threadsI know the editors have to be a bit more nice to this nonsense, but I don't. The Throng of the Betrayed have not shown any respect to this organization, but you sure come out slinging your own level of nice when you feel your delicate image impugned. Don
Resident Troll from the Northlands
Patiently waiting for the switch to be thrown
>>"The Throng of the Betrayed have not shown any respect to this organization,....."You, sir, are wrong.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
"...if they want to disband from a very knowledgeable and useful community, this will be mostly their loss."That would be true if the community disbanded, but it hasn't. Cooks Talk Classic and Breaktime Classic are up and running with quite a few members of CT and BT posting away just like before - and several more "refugees" show up there every day. That "knowledgeable and useful community" seems to be intact.Like me, most of them tried the new formats, saw much that they didn't like (and little that they did), and posted their objections. IMO, Tauntons biggest mistake has been to seemingly ignore the protests. At first, I saw statements like "Well, you can't please everyone", and "Give it a chance", but little about when/how/if those objections would (or could) be addressed. Only in the past couple of days has there been anything that indicates acknowledgement that problems exist and should be addressed. This forum was scheduled to switch over during the past week, and I suspect that it hasn't because Taunton is regrouping before the wreck gets worse.
Well.... I yam starting to think there must be summick wrong with me. Perhaps when the format of Knots changes I'll be struck to the quick and fall down weeping, bereft of hope as the Terrible Dark Threat of Change rides in to destroy my cyberworld of woodworking. All the Prophets of Doom may then smugly nod their heads as I commence to cry out pitifully with the other mourners. "Woe, woe! I have had to larn to navigate a novel webpage design!! Woe, woe"!!!
Or maybe not. :-)
As Richard noted somewhere...it'll all blow over soon enough and Mr Dissatisfaction will have to find another excuse to mutter dark accusations about uncaring people behind a curtain, plotting to discomfort them or even wreck their fragile mind state and thus their ability to work wood, they will be so in the dark about everything.
Lataxe, an insensitive and uncaring brute, obviously. I will tell myself of when I have time.
Lataxe:I share your general lack of patience with whiners, moaners and complainers. But, design matters. Apple didn't invent the mp3 player, in fact they were quite late to the party but they knew how to make one that people would want to use; and, that took design know-how.Before responding to your post, I went to Breaktime. There are two changes to the design that completely change the experience. The first is that topics are presented in a top menu that you have to navigate back to if you want to go to another topic. The second change is that the visual layout of each thread is just awful from a design standpoint. It's hard to see where each post begins - it is visually very confusing.These two seemingly innocuous changes are enough to change the whole forum experience. In its present form, I can scan the entire forum by scrolling. In the new world, I am going to have to navigate through a hierarchy of menus.So user interfaces matter, they define the experience and make it pleasing, or not. In the design world, this sort of thing is less opinion than settled fact.You may choose to live with the new format, but I bet you won't enjoy it as much.H
Hastings,You've got it right and an example is Mel's 6000+ post thread. Once the novelty got old, it died because one couldn't navigate through it without struggling through all the no-content posts intended solely to show how witty and brilliant the poster is. Topics came and went without most people here ever seeing them. Latax loved it and his forum persona grew out of that thread. He's got a whole identity wrapped up in this forum and has a lot to lose if Taunton blows this. That's why he's in attack mode. Where else can he sit on his lofty perch and look down his nose at all the mere mortals around him?
Larry,
Handbags at dawn it is, you caddish boundah! You certainly know how to give a savage cowbite. Ow, ow! :-)
Lataxe the lofty, entwined in a Knot.
Handbags?? At dawn??
I can't..........
View Image
Larry,
You only just avoided getting the cleaning bill fo my twisted knicker, which I nearly wet as I opened your post and suffered a bout of explosive mirth.
And I though ye lacked a sense of humour! I will borrow that pic for future use.
Lataxe, sailing merrily around the stormy teacup, hoisting a variety of signals.
Larry,Now THAT was funny!! I didn't know you had it in you. Good for you.Happy Holidays,Jeff
Larry,
Ya missed the spilled pints of ale on the floor, then I think ya got it nailed purfect.
What a great way to start the morning. Handbags and squirrels.... I will smile all day.
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
H,
In truth I like this present Knots format very much, compared to all other forum layouts and navigation schemes I've experienced. Like others, I wish it wasn't being replaced. I have sculled around the Threads forum - Gatherings - as the ladywife goes there from time to time. It isn't as user-friendly as this format here .... but I have to say that it seems a small matter, nevertheless, to have to deal with.
The content matters much more than the presentation, even though the latter is better if well-designed.
Perhaps when Knots changes I'll be less forgiving, as the content and society here are more important to me than Gatherings or any other forum (which I rarely visit and usually only read, except for the odd rare post). So yes, user interface is "important" to the design of a website; this design still extant at Knots is a good one and t'other is not nearly so good. However.....
Taunton (as has been elucidated elsewhere) has reasons to change. Moreover if the claim that the new stuff can be tweaked is true, we may see improvements over the poor Breaktime design as time passes. However, if hissy-fitters can't be bothered to show any patience and have no feelings of loyalty - feel no sense of obligation to contribute to those potential improvements - let them go elsewhere. If they want improvements, let them participate constructively (as some have) rather than fulminating and throwing teddy out of their pram.
"Wah, I doan like it" is not a constructive suggestion.
I do feel a sense of loyalty to Taunton: they provide an excellent overall service that has for years been my mainstay woodworking education. Despite the moans about alleged lesser quality of current FWW, that a certain section of the hissy-fitters indulge in every chance they get, I feel the opposite. I go to other magazines and their websites from time to time; I find a lot less to attract me.
I hope that major contributors to my Knots-gained knowledge will also remain here to keep a Good Society intact. Let the non-altruist individualistas go elsewhere to find their perfect and first-rate website utopia. Good luck, they'll need it, as various deviations from their model of perfection will soon have them hissing once more!
****
We all have our scales and tables of imortant to not-important environmental factors. In mine, website navigation frustrations come near the bottom, next to blase shop assistants, drivers who don't signal and mobile-users blathering too loudly in the public airspace. One heaves a sigh and gets on with things.
"Important" is more like avoiding age-related debilitation, violent criminals and fellows intent on impoverishing or otherwise over-exploiting me. It's to do (partly) with intent. Taunton has good intent until otherwise proven, based on its excellent reputation. An attempt to move web services does not fall in the category "bad intent" - unless one is an oversensitive solipsist filled to bustin' with an overwhelming sense of one's own self-importance. No one at Taunton is trying to hurt me or rip me off.
Lataxe, probably some form of pinko-lacky.
Well Said!
"So user interfaces matter, they define the experience and make it pleasing, or not. In the design world, this sort of thing is less opinion than settled fact."
In our own world a drawer that won't open becomes a panel.... Design and detail are what matters, especially for a publisher that owns the word 'Fine'. When you loose track of the critical element of user interface you will become irrelevant. Fact, that is proven every day in the business world.
I also find the new design a step backward, though it might perhaps be a cost savings to Taunton, it is impossible to read. We will have to see how the new interface works, but I am skeptical at best. No moaning no whining....
Morgan, Who feels like I am going to a new school the first day. <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Even on Drupal's own web site there is more criticsm than good press.
What we see on-screen is a user interface. With enough time and skill, FWW's IT people can replicate the present software's UI or create something else of value for the user's experience beyond the bog standard install. But as a "standard install," Drupal really sucks for how it displays data.
However, at the back-end, the real data exists in a database and how that user interface gets served the data is paramount. One of the prime compaints about Drupal is its inability to efficiently manage and serve up large amounts of data.
Other compaints--on Drupal's own web site--is that customizing that user interface is a chore. There is presently more people on the site (Drpal's site) disliking it and lack of scalability and ability to be customized than not.
There is a reality to be faced by the Taunton IT people--it is going to be hard work. How that shakes out is yet to be seen. I trust they will give it their best shot. I'll continue to watch in on their progress simply because these changes they are making don't bother me much. I do like the present format here, but it isn't my decision to make changes or not.
Take care, Mike
If Knots goes the way of the other forums it might be possible to form a woodworker's group on facebook. I know there are groups and organizations on facebook, why not us. We'd need a computer wizard to see if it actually is a possibility.
Just a thought.
Jim
Edited 12/12/2009 2:40 am ET by James R.
Hey James,
Hope your recovery is going well. As for the facebook suggestion, I believe most here would have an anonymity issue
Tom
I was part of the regulars over at BT and it's the reason I'm over here now. The format may be a better one, but I just don't see it. I have tried the new forum a couple of times and feel like my eyes are crossed when I do.
I've always liked Taunton and was a subscriber to FHB pretty much from their start & have all their back issues. That ended a few months ago, but I still think FWW is still worth it.
It's sad, because there was quite a crew of great people over there who are now gone for various reasons of change etc. It was so much more than just advice. There were a lot of fun things there.
Hopefully it will grow back, and maybe it'll catch me in the wind again but for now, I too am bidding a fond farewell.
I'll continue to stick my head in here from time to time. You guys are great.
Adios amigos.
[waves bye-bye in a friendly fashion]Who was that?
You're pretty sarcastic for some loud mouth with less than a year here.
LOL! That's the Taunton I remember.
Mike,
Ouch! So I read all 57 (Heinz is in your neck of the woods...) posts in this thread and then popped over to Breaktime to check it out. I agree that the new Drupal platform is gawd awful. Ouch!! Hope to see you over at SMC.
-Jerry
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