Replies

1. 
   mitch | Dec 12, 2002 03:44am | #1

   you cannot go wrong with a makita ls1013- they rock.

   mitch

1. 
   Mach70 | Dec 12, 2002 03:51am | #2

   2nd that.  Smooth as silk and outstanding capacity for a 10" saw.

2. 
   JeffKurtz | Dec 12, 2002 04:14am | #3

   I'm wondering if there's a reason you want a sliding miter saw as opposed to a 12" compound miter saw.  Their cutting capacities don't differ much, and the simpler design of the compound unit means lower cost (about half the price) and fewer things to go wrong.  Sliding miter saws, if set up in the shop, require greater depth than compound models.

   Should you decide on a sliding unit, I'd suggest you avoid models having only one rod such as the Makita LS1011.  (They're still out there.)  If you prefer a 12" compound model, go with the DeWalt - it's just a little work horse.  BTW, DeWalt also makes a 12" sliding compound model which has gotten excellent reviews.  You've already noticed the price tag on the Hitachis, but I understand they're worth every penny.

   Jeff

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/11/2002 8:17:27 PM ET by Jeff K

1. 
   Dick38 | Dec 12, 2002 05:13pm | #5

   The 12" Dewalt is sweet, only way to go.

   Dick

   Edited 12/12/2002 9:15:25 AM ET by Dick

3. 
   JRMCarpentry | Dec 12, 2002 04:25pm | #4

   I have had experience with the DeWalt,Hitachi, and Makita dual compound sliders.  Here is my take on all thre.  First the DeWalt.  First I did not like a 12" blade.  Extra expense without gaing much in cutting capacity.  Second I did not like the exposed rails.  My saw is used both in the shop and on the job.  If something in my van fell on those rails and messed them up I would be very cranky.  Third I personally think the table top is too small for a saw that takes up so much room.  However, the Dewalts' cam lock on the miter table is in my opinion the best locking system out there.  Next the Hitachi.  I think the fence is too short, and there is a pin that has to be pulled in the back if you want to compound right.  The pin is hard to get at and is in general a paain in the butt.  Because of the inclusion of metric rafter cut markings on the miter scale, i think the scale is really hard to read.  Quick find 42 degrees.  Other than that it is smooth, quiet and accurate.   Finally the Makita.  This one is my favorite.  It is so smooth to operate you can hardly believe it.  It is reasonably quiet and very accurate.  However, there are som things I don't like.  If you want to make a 1/2 degree change from one of the positive stops, you can have trouble.  It wants to pop back into the stop.  Second the locking mechanism on the miter table is less than rock solid.  Maybe mine was a bad unit but if I had to lock the table on say for instance 40 degrees, I could still move the table after it was supposed to be locked.  That is very bad news if you need to miter a cuppped piece of oak.  The table would literally start to creep during the cut!  In my opinion if they could put the DeWalt locking mechanism on the Makita LS1013 you would have the ultimate compound slide.  Sorry this is so long winded, but just wanted to share my experiences

   Jim

1. 
   atelierDRM | Dec 12, 2002 05:31pm | #6

   Thanks Jim for the info. The more I hear about it the Makita 1013, the more I think I should take another look at it. Still I have had no opinions on the PorterCable mitre, is this because it simply isn't worth discussing.

   Thanks again to everyone.

1. 
   b1gcountry | Dec 12, 2002 06:39pm | #7

   Here's some information I put together a while back when I was deciding on a 12" CMS. I'll tell you in advance, I got the Makita offering from Tool Crib, and I haven't once regretted it. The post is targeted at a CMS, but most things are general across the board.

   HTH,

   Tom

   Originally posted by Thomas Judkins ([email protected]) on the newsgroup rec.woodworking Search the archives at groups.google.com for the original thread.

   INTRO

   Well, I've been looking into purchasing a 12" Compound Miter Saw, and I thought I would share what I've learned with the group. To give you an idea where I am coming from, I intend this saw for strict shop use, and I want something capable of cutting very precise miters, and bevels, as well as something that can make an easily repeatable cross-cut.

   SAW TYPE OVERVIEW

   The first thing that you need to do is decide which type of saw you want to buy. Obviously, it will be somewhat a matter of price whether you decide on a 10", 12" or slider, but there are also other issues that influence the decision, including the inherent differences between the different types:

   10" Compound Miter Saws-- There are several good things about a 10" saw. The first is the cost; a 10" saw will be cheaper than a 12" one of similar quality. Another plus is that the 10" blade will be interchangeable with your 10" table saw (But don't put you TS blade on your Miter Saw; they can't handle rip blades). The saw is also smaller and will fit more easily into a space than a larger model. The final bonus to a smaller diameter blade is that arbor vibration does not throw off the cut as much as in a larger saw (less saw to vibrate).

   12" Compound Miter Saws-- The main advantage to a 12" saw is a larger cutting width and height. Another advantage is the blade speed at the cut. A 12" blade spinning at the same RPM will be going faster at the teeth than a 10" one because the teeth have farther to travel. The disadvantages include extra size, price, and slightly more blade runout (if the arbor vibrates off by one degree, that degree will be amplified more when the cutting edge is farther from the nut.) This last issue is not as important as it sounds, as the quality of other things effect the cut more than this.

   Sliding Compound Miter Saws-- These can be operated in two ways: 1. with the sliding mechanism locked in place; in this way, the saw has all the advantages/disadvantages of a non-sliding saw, and 2. with the sliding mechanism unlocked; in this case, a much larger cutting width is allowed (although the cutting height is not affected much), however, the sliding mechanism is now contributing all of it's errors to the cut as well, so the cut quality is not as good as when the slider is locked. The only advantage to a slider (and a big one) is the extra cut width. The cutting height, however, is not affected. The major disadvantages are a much higher cost, much more space is needed, and less accurate cut when sliding it. There is a major difference between the different sliding mechanisms employed by the different makers, however, I decided early on that I did not want a slider, so this is all I know about that.

   There is also another type of saw called a plain "Miter Saw" that does not tilt, but these are pretty much replaced by the CMS today.

   DECIDING WHICH KIND OF SAW

   The first thing you need to do is look at your work, and decide what the largest pieces you will be crosscutting regularly. Namely, figure out: what is the widest board you want to cut? A 10"CMS will handle up to 5.5-6" width, a 12" up to ~8" and sliders more. Next figure out what cutting height you will need. This is relevent for cutting moldings when you wish to stand them up on the turntable, of when cutting thick stock like a 4x4. Individual saws vary on this dimension, but 12" saws are generally more capable in this respect.

   Now that you have your minimum dimansions down, you should figure out what type of work you will be doing. If you are in construction, you will need something more rugged that can be tossed in a pickup. With furniture making or finish work, you wil need something that will cut clean miters. When you figure these out, you will know what to check when looking at actual saws. Of course, you will also have to decide what price you are willing to spend.

   COMPARING SAWS

   Fence and Table:

   The fence and table contribute a great deal to the accuracy of a saw. There are several things which should be checked before the purchase of any Miter Saw.

   Table Flatness: The table should be dead flat across the entire turntable and extensions. Just as it is difficult to lay a warped board flat, it is difficult to put a flat board on a warped table without it wobbling during the cut. Even if you are able to hold the piece steady, you will never be able to get two pieces to lay the same way.

   Fence Flatness: This is the same as table flatness. Both sides must not only be flat, but they must lie in the same plane as well. To check the flatness of both fence and table, use a straight edge and place it over the surface. If you can see any light between the straight edge and fence/table, then it is not flat. Most saws made today seem to be off by at least a little, and some seem to be off by as much as 1/8".

   Fence Angle: The next thing to check is that the fence lies at a right angle to the table. This is a little harder to check, but is best done with an engineer's square at several locations along the fence.

   Turntable setup

   Stop Accuracy: This is probably easier to check through using the saw, which is sometimes not possible. The table should align with the pre-machined stops (called detents) easily and consistently. Make sure that there is little play once the table is set to an angle stop. Also check to see if you can set the angle to something very close to a pre-set angle (like 46 degrees) without the table slipping into that notch. You also want to make sure that the stops are set up correctly. The 90 degree position is easily checked, but the others are hard to measure without making a cut.

   Ease on Eyes: The vernier scale (angle chart) should be easy to read. The easier to read, the less the error on your part. This is subjective. The silk-screened scale on the Makita is a much finer scale, however, the stamped metal on the DeWalt will withstand abuse. This is a trade off.

   Ease of Travel: The turntable should slide smoothly, and should feel comfortable to you. Again, this is very subjective.

   Zero Clearance Insert: A simple low or zero clearance insert on the bottom of the table will help reduce tearout, as well as keeping small offcuts from taking flight. If the prvided insert is easily replaced, you can make your own zero clearance insert.

   (It was also a suggestion from Leon, a poster on rec.woodworking, that a zero clearance insert is also a sure sign of where the saw will cut. One word of caution on this point, however, as soon as you make your first beveled cut, the kerf in the insert will open up slightly, so you may want to line up your workpiece a hair over the edge.

   Chop Mechanism

   Clearance: There are two clearances that you should be concerned with: The vertical clearance under the blade guard, and the vertical clearance under the saw teeth. The clearance under the teeth is the maximum height the saw is capable of cutting (actually, a little less), but it is an easier cut if the piece clears the guard as well.

   Smoothness: The saw should lower smoothly, and spring back up without assistance.

   Bevel adjustment: The saw you are interested in might bevel only one way, or it may bevel in both directions. If the later is the case, then there should be some sort of positive stop at the perpendicular point. It is very convenient if the bevel scale is visible from the front of the saw. Also, I find it easier to adjust the saws that tend to "stay put" at whatever bevel you set them to. That way you don't have to put as much effort into supporting the saw as you lock it into place. Again, see if this is comfortable to you.

   Motor and Blade

   Power: Again, you don't know what power a machine really has until you put it through some tough wood. The factors that contribute to the power include the amps, the RPM, and whether the saw has a speed control that will keep the RPMs constant through a cut. I can hear when a machine starts to get bogged down, a good test is to chop through some wood, and if you hear it start to get back up to speed after the cut, then you know it bogged down.

   Kick-start: If the saw kicks hard when you turn it on, it is more likely to move the work piece from where you set it. Sometimes a saw will kick so hard it will jump on the table; not good if it isn't bolted down. This is more of a problem with direct drive motors than belt driven ones. Soft start also helps.

   Soft Start: This can be either good or bad. It reduces the amount of kick start almost completely, but you must then wait the second for the blade to get up to speed before starting the cut (not good for the contractors who hold, start, cut and release in one motion).

   Electric Brake: The quicker the blade stops, the less chance of injury. Blade brakes are good things.

   Speed Control: This mechanism keeps the blade at a constant speed throughout the cut. Look for these to run at less RPMs because they don't slow down under load. This is a nice feature IMHO, should make cuts smoother.

   Trigger: This is also a matter of taste; they usually aren't made for lefties, but you should see if you can at least do a cut with either hand, as some rare times, you just have to.

   Blade: Decide if the blade on the saw is good enough. The best blades have 70-80 teeth. These will leave smoother cuts and make the saw run better/quieter.

   Blade Guard: You want one you're not going to take off. Also see the section on clearance. A clear one also helps so you can see if the blade is still spinning (a good thing to know.)

   Noise: WHAT DID YOU SAY?!

   BRANDS

   As I think I have stressed, there is no saw that is perfect for everyone. If you plan on moving a saw around, then there is a whole load of things that you should consider that I didn't even mention. I have included a few links below that contain a few reviews, and each chose a different saw. I would strongly recommend looking at the reviews at Amazon.com, and trying out these for yourself before buying. That said, here's my opinions:

   brands I looked at: Delta, Porter-Cable, Rigid, Hitachi, Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, others I'm sure I'm forgetting

   I know someone with a Delta, and I've used it, and I didn't like it. It was in a architecture shop and a lot of people used it, so it got a workout, but its motor crapped out, and it is dead now. It took abuse, I will admit, but it didn't survive. The cuts it gave were never clean, and it burned a lot of the wood I cut (admittedly, probably the blade). I realize this is probably an unfair bias, but I did not consider either the Delta or Porter-Cable.

   The Rigid was a surprisingly good machine. It felt sturdy, it came with a lot of accessories, and the adjustments were quite nice. The table was a little off, but not as bad as others. I didn't check the fence, but I should have.

   The Hitachis I looked at were all VERY nice, but they didn't have a 12" model, so I didn't really consider them. (They look kinda weird too) The tables were flat though.

   Bosch kind of felt like the Rigid, but I forget about anything else.

   The DeWalt was a nice saw. The one I saw had a nice blade, and it had a rugged detent system. Several reviews ranked this one on top. The kicker for me is that the bed was way off. None of the ones I tried were close. One thing I liked (I think) was that the vernier (angle) scale was a screw-on plate that can be adjusted. This gives you lee-way if it is off, but I don't know if it will move on it's own with abuse.

   The Makita was my favorite, and I plan on buying it when I make room. It has a very level fence and table, one of the few that were really machines *well*. The soft start and speed control work good for me, and the saw felt good. That said, it's probably not the best to put in the back of your pickup. The vernier scale was silk screened on, and, as one reviewer noted, "it would not last in my Ford".

   LINKS

   Here are some links I used in my decision. Most of this post is from the info below, people's comments, and my experience fiddling with these saws.

   Well, I hope this helped at least a few of you.

   Tom Judkins

   GENERAL INFO:

   Workshop Wisdom - Table Saws

   http://www.toolnewz.com/workshopwisdom/workshop_mitre.html

   American Woodworker: Feature Article: How To Buy A Miter Saw

   http://www.americanwoodworker.com/200010/projects/mitersaw/main.html

   American Woodworker: Miter Saws

   http://www.americanwoodworker.com/2001_buyers_guide/miter_saws/page3.html

   REVIEWS:

   Tools of the Trade Online: Tool Test: Sliding Compound Miter Saws

   http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/content/tools/1999/jf99/mitertest/default.asp

   10" Compound Miter Saws

   http://www.growinglifestyle.com/article/s0/a46254.html

   Tool Comparison for Mitersaws

   http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodmall/charts/mitersaws/index.html

   Compound Miter Saws - Listed by Blade Diameter

   http://www.woodzone.com/toolreview/miter-blade.htm

   Review of DeWalt 12-inch Compound Miter Saw

   http://www.wwforum.com/faqs_articles/dw705.html

   MISC:

   Breakdown Makita LS1220 ToolPartsDirect

   http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/cgi-bin/tpd.cgi/breakdown/makita/LS1220/

   Woodworkers Journal eZine

   http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/ezine/archive/2001/2.6/webreview.cfm

2. 
   JRMCarpentry | Dec 13, 2002 06:04am | #12

   DRM

   I have no personal experience with the PC saw.  I do know it is not a dual compound, meaning you can not bevel right and left.  To me if I were to spend the money on a slider  , I would want it to tilt both directions.  I do not know what your intended purpose for the saw is but I love the dual capability for things like crown mold and base.  It is absolutely indispensible when cutting open tread stair stringers.  But I cannot comment on the Porter Cable CSMS.  I do love their routers though!  Good luck

   Jim

3. 
   JeffKurtz | Dec 15, 2002 04:15am | #18

   I own the Delta, which is just the PC with different stickers.  Think you can do a lot better for the money with DeWalt or Makita.

   Jeff

4. 
   Elcoholic | Dec 12, 2002 11:16pm | #8

   I have a Makita LS1212 and it's great.  I upgraded from a Delta 10" CMS.  I also upgraded to an FS 12" 100 tooth blade and Makita's horizontal work clamp (which is spendy, but worth it).  Altough some may question the added capacity, I've found it very useful.  I can and do almost all my cross cutting on it which leaves the TS almost always set-up for ripping or plowing.  Saves lots of time.  I even cut some 2 x 12 stair stringers with it.  It plunge cuts great and left just the inside corner to get with a jig saw.  On bed rails and other long pieces I've made very precise shoulder cuts using the depth stop.  BTW my second choice was the Hitachi 10" slider.

   John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/12/2002 3:17:39 PM ET by ELCOHOLIC

5. 
   All10Attache | Dec 12, 2002 11:29pm | #9

   Recently did some casual research after justifying my need for a SCMS with the War Department - Settled on the Bosch and love it.  My only comparison to other power tools in the shop is DeWalt and Craftsman.  DeWalt is acceptable at best.  Craftsman is next to the trash can.  Bosch makes a solid product with good overall functionality but is a little on the pricy side for a home shop on a limited budget.  Let us know what  you finally decide upon.

   Regards,

   JB

6. 
   sweensdv | Dec 12, 2002 11:32pm | #10

   You really need to factor in the price of an after market blade when figuring out the total price of the saw.  Most OEM supplied blades are average at best.  The OEM blade on the LS1013 on the other hand is a top of the line quality blade that will give you an almost glass smooth cut.  You will not have to replace this blade.  The Makita may appear to cost more compared to other saws but when all costs are factored in they are all in the same ballpark.

7. 
   mike4244 | Dec 13, 2002 03:06am | #11

   I have used most slidesaws ever made. Milwaukee makes the best, no comparison to any other saw. The Makita is a very good saw but hard to read swing and bevel scales. Freud is pure junk, Dewalt that I have used was not accurate for trim work.Bosch, Porter Cable , Delta are decent saws.

   The Milwaukee slidesaw is dead accurate, large flip top fence. The fence is flipped when bevel cutting, takes 2 seconds to flip fence. The bevel and swing scales are large and easy to read.The saw locks at any degree or part of a degree without jumping into the nearest detent.Swings 48 degrees to the left, 59 degrees to the right.Bevel goes 3 degrees past zero in each direction. I have owned this saw about 5 years with absolutely no problems. This saw is used every day.

1. 
   Elcoholic | Dec 14, 2002 12:36am | #13

   The Makita is a very good saw but hard to read swing and bevel scales.

   Not to start anything here, just food for thought about whats really important.  Who really uses bevel and or swing scales for precision work anyway.  Especially if using multiple machines with multiple set-ups.  For instance when making chairs I'll set my adjustable bevel gauge off a drawing.  I'll set the slider off the bevel and cut a 2 x 2 hunk of scrap oak.  That's now my reference for that angle for everything from the slider to the TS to the mortiser ...

   My old Delta had special markings for doing crown molding.  The compound cuts were right on.  Ever see a corner where the 3 axises (axii ?) were exactly perpendicular?  Nope?  Me neither.  So you get close and use a block plane or a caulking gun if it's paint grade work.  The scales get you close, but that's it.  What I look for are accurate detents and the accuracy/feel of the linear bearings and pivot.  The LS1212 is really smooth.  So are the Hitachi's.  Most of the others I tried felt like dragging a stick through mud and gravel.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   mike4244 | Dec 14, 2002 03:45am | #14

   You apparently have not done trim work, if you had there would not be a question of accuracy and readability of the bevel scale and swing scale. On a job there are few 90 degree corners. Every day I need to set the slidesaw to a fraction of a degree, example : outside corners of crown, base , chair rail etc. Even if the corner shows a dead 90 degrees I usually set the swing to 45 1/4 degrees. This gives you a tight miter.I could go on and on about why you need accurate swing and bevel scales. From your post i reckon you work only in a shop, a controlled enviorment.I have worked in several shops but mostly on millwork installations. If I used a caulking gun on lousy miters as you suggest i would be back doing concrete formwork where I started 41 years ago.

1. 
   kennedy136 | Dec 14, 2002 05:01am | #15

   Mike,

            Very well put.  The scales are critical especially for crown mldg. and other phases of trim work.

                                                         Mark

8. 
   bbwoodworks | Dec 14, 2002 06:38am | #16

   Makita is by far and away the best slide compound saw on the market. Before I get started I also want to express my displeasure for all Dewalt saws. I have worked in Interior trim for years and have used almost every saw on the market, after using dewalts over this period of time I noticed a large amount of blade wobble.

   Now on to the makita, this saw offers positive stops on the dual compound at both 45's and zero. In production work this comes in very handy as u do not have to lock it down. Also in my oppinion the lock on the makita is superior as the dewalt is hard to adjust or fine tune the degree. the makita is a simple hand turn. makita cutting capacity is slighty small then that of the 12 in dewalt.

   You can not buy a better saw then the makita. which u can normaly find around 350 bucks.

1. 
   Mach70 | Dec 14, 2002 09:29am | #17

   <You can not buy a better saw then the makita. which u can normaly find around 350 bucks.>

   I agree with the first part but if the 2nd were true then the choice would really be a no-brainer. The Makita LS1013 sells for around 500 and the Dewalt DW708 for 600. Once in a while a Makita will go for 350-400 on eBay but then you pay shipping.