I really like the look of the single entry dovetail. I cut my tails first for the record. I can cut dovetails very accurately, but I am running into a problem tracing the tails on to the boards that will have the pins. The space between the dovetails is so tight that it is difficult to mark the lines. Anyone else encountered this problem? What did you do?
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Use a thin knife to mark them.
Dick Dare
Archibald,I was taught to do this with my dovetail saw. The key is to leave the waste between the tails until after marking out the pins. This allows the toe of your dovetail saw to be slipped into each kerf, with the heel slightly elevated, then drawn back out of the kerf dragging the teeth at the toe. This leaves a kerf-width mark on the endgrain of the pin-piece, and you simply need to remember to leave this entire mark (maybe plus a smidgen, depending on the material) when sawing the pins. I've become so accustomed to this approach that it is my preferred method regardless of the size of the pins and tails.Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
What is a single entry dovetail? Can someone post an example?
It sounds like an ordinary dovetail to me ron, but given a new name. It's a mystery anyway, and I've seen thousands of dovetails: there are through dovetails, lapped (aka blind) dovetails and secret dovetails, either double lapped or mitred; decorative dovetails, one example of which recently got dubbed the 'hound's tooth' dovetail and it seems to be sticking; sliding dovetails, canted dovetails, double bevel dovetails, tapered sliding dovetails, and so on, but I've never heard of anything called a single entry dovetail until now.
Anyway, here's one way to get at those tricky little gaps between the tails and mark the pins. I made my knife out of an old hacksaw blade and stuck a bit of wood on for the handle-- pretty simple and not very flash, but it works. Slainte.
View Image Richard Jones Furniture
Mine is even more rude:I took a jigsaw blade and honed one side flat. I then "sharpened" it by grinding the other side. This ground away most of the teeth- leaving just enough to serve as "serrations" on my "knife". When I mark with it, I can lay it flat against the profile of the tail, and the "teeth" leave a fine but visible line. I made another for "left-handed" marking. Pretty crude but it works for me.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I've seen marking knives like this before and always wondered how best to sharpen them. What's your recommended sharpening technique for that curved blade?Thanks for posting the drawing.Phil
I use an oilstone slip intended for honing gouges. I roughed out the shape on a high speed grindstone and created the rough bevel with it too. Any slip will do though: it doesn't have to be oil lubricated. You could even just wrap a bit of abrasive paper around some dowelling at a bit of a push. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
rondunn,
I believe Archibald is referring to having the pins and tails come together on the first try...and then leaving them alone. In other words, cut tails and pins, apply glue, slap together, done.
ron,
Single entry dovetails are laid out using an arcane book keeping procedure, called a pencil, that has no eraser.
Use double entry dovetails when making more than one joint.
Both methods require the use of ledger strips. And are subject to review. Instead of giving a close look, the reviewer places his ear against the joint in question. This is called an audit.
Hope this clears things up.
Ray
Ray, that is priceless and will no doubt be much appreciated by any bean counters here.
Would you know when double-flare doves should be used?Philip Marcou
philip,
Double flare doves are placed on the roadside in front of, and behind, the scene of an accident or breakdown. Be sure and clip their wings first or stake them down to eliminate the possibility of the flares being alight, taking fright, then taking flight.
Always glad to help.
Ray
rondunn et al,Momentarily, I was also puzzled as to what Archibald meant by "single entry dovetails." But then realized that he was referring to the style of Edwardian drawer dovetails in which the pins are very narrow. So narrow, in fact, that the pairs of saw cuts which ultimately define the pins (tails first sawing) both enter via the same kerf. If one is using a thin gage (.020 - .025) dovetail saw, an even thinner gage marking knife is required to transfer marks to the end grain of the tail piece. Which is why I think it makes sense to simply use the dovetail saw as briefly described in my previous post. I am attaching a photo of one example of such dovetails. I apologize for the quality of the photo, but hope it conveys the necessary information.Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Edited 1/13/2008 9:34 am ET by chamfer
I've heard it called the zero-clearance dovetail, though once you've blown a couple zero-tolerance seems more apt. It's supposed to demonstrate to the world, which doesn't care, that you've done it all by hand. I use a chip-carving knife for marking -- similar to the bird's beak. Anyway, I have a question. Dovetails are used for joint strength. At what point (if at all) does the thinness of the pins compromise that strength?
Jim
Don,
That's brilliant! I just might be converted already - before trying your technique. Simple. Effective. Wonderful!Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
This was exactly the trick I was looking for. Thankyou
For the record I am referring to the Edwardian style of dovetail where the dovetail saw enters the same intial kerf to cut cheeks of adjacent tails. That photo was great, did you cut them?
Archibald et al,Since it seems I may have influenced a couple of people to try this technique, it might be helpful if I elaborated a little. When using my dovetail saw for marking out the pins, I grip the back of the saw, with my forefinger pointing along the back to/near the toe of the saw. In other words, I don't hold it by the handle as when sawing. I feel this gives me better control in this application, and, as with any method for transferring these marks, it is critical not to let anything move during the process. Probably not for everybody, but I like the simplicity and the fact that the saw is already at hand.In general, I try to stay out of the tails-first vs. pins-first controversies, but in the case of lapped dovetails I tend to make an exception. I don't like the idea of balancing the end of the drawer front on the drawer side while attempting to transfer marks. I much prefer affixing the drawer front in the bench vise and being able to firmly hold the drawer side in place while it rests on the end of the drawer front and a strategically placed block of wood (or plane on its side) on the bench. (I know people have devised methods of clamping everything together during this process, but I think it would find this cumbersome and slow.)Additionally, if one cuts pins first, the layout of the tails has to take place on the inside, "non-show," surface of the drawer sides. I prefer being able to saw to layout lines on the more visible surface. Additionally, sawing from the inside of the drawer side puts any risk of "blow-out" at the more visible surface. I know it can be made to work, but I just don't like taking those risks if I don't have to. Yes, those were some dovetails I cut about 20 years ago. These very fine pins do probably compromise strength a little bit - at least in theory. Actually, the biggest danger is that they may collapse during glue-up/assembly. Once successfully glued, they are more than strong enough for this application.Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Don, I also mark my dovetails using the saw. I learned this method in a Charles Haywood book. The only problems I have had is on drawer fronts with half blind dovetails. The first few times I pulled the saw too far and marked the entire side of the front board. It required more planing and sanding of the drawer side than I had planned.
Charles Haywood also cuts all the same sized drawer sides at the same time by clamping them together. He places the clamped sides in the vice at an angle so that he saws vertically.
I like the look of the thin dovetails for drawers as discussed by others, though it is hard to fit a chisel in to clean the wood out.
jump,
"The only problems I have had is on drawer fronts with half blind dovetails."
It'd be really tough on lipped drawer fronts, too, I expect.
Ray
Learn to cut the pins first, and you will have all sorts of room for your marking knife. I use a very sharp scratch awl.
Jeff
Amen.
Why anybody would cut tails first and force themselves to make marks in the tightest of spaces is beyond me. My first attempt, years ago, was tails first and once I had the tail board cut and offered it up to the pin board, I said audibly to nobody in particular, "this is obviously bull$hit" and I cut them pins first after that and never looked back.
Tails first forces the use of marking knife. Once somebody has a few under their belt a pencil will do just fine, just leave a hair graphite showing, but you can only do this in pins first mode.
Arch,
I made a marking knife from an old card scraper. Marked the dovetails in the attached photo with it.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled