Humble Newbie
When sharpening a chisel or plane iron is the grinding required. I watched several online videos that by passed the grinding and stayed with sandpaper or just stones.
Any thoughts.
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Replies
Larry,
I only grind when I have a deep chip in the blade. Otherwise I go straight to sandpaper. If sandpaper isn't needed I go straight to a stone.
GRW
The purpose of grinding is to remove a lot of metal quickly and efficiently. You can do the same thing by other methods, just a bit less quickly and less efficiently. The hollow (concave) shape that a grinding wheel puts on a tool also makes honing go a little quicker, but that's not a must-have by any means.
A coarse diamond stone is a reasonably efficient substitute for a grinder for sharpening woodworking tools (although it would be tiring to use if you were trying to completely reshape a blade). Of course, a good diamond stone costs a significant fraction of the price of an entry-level grinder, so you wouldn't be saving much, except some wear and tear on your fingers and forearms.
-Steve
Having the dubious honor of being one of the patients for "A Trip to the Sharpening Doctor" I found that hollow grinding does two things. As saschafer said, it removes a lot of metal quickly, the second thing it does is to give you a reference for hand honing. The "legs" at each end of the bevel register the blade to the correct angle for honing. If you use a honing guide, it doesn't matter. It will just take a bit longer because you are honing the entire face and not just two thinner edges.
I think you'll find that grinding will take your sharpening to a new level. If you only use sandpaper or stones to create the 25 deg bevel it's a lot of work and consequently you'll be put off the job.
You can buy a cheapo grinder and improve it substantially by careful tuning. I had to do this as, when I bought mine I could only find cheap ones locally. Then:
1. Tinker with the wheels to minimise their runout by finding the best position on the shaft.
2. Use paper shims to reduce/eliminate the runout.
3. Dress the wheels.
4. Have fun designing and building a decent tool rest.
Alternatively get a good one and an aftermarket tool rest.
I'd suggest going for a 6" one at least.
My 5 inch grinder cost me 30 euros ($42). There was immense variability in the quality of the ones I looked at. After it was vibrated off the bench while I was jigsawing one of the wheels broke so I installed 6" wheels because the only tool shop open at the time (11:55 on a Saturday morning - 5 minutes to closing time) did not have any 5" ones in stock,
Edited 6/16/2009 3:03 pm ET by davcefai
I grind myself. I have worked with a couple of european carpenters and cabinet makers that almost never ground a tool. They preferred a flat bevel on a chisel or plane iron. If they got a chip on the edge then they would grind. Seems like the hard road to me.
mike
Larry,
I would agree with all of the information posted before this one.
If you only have 4 or 5 chisels to sharpen, your first decision is how much money do you want to spend. The next is how much time do you have.
IF, you enjoy restoring old chisels and planes to user status (meaning considerably more than 4 or 5 cutters) and a few bucks I would suggest getting a grinder.
Well, actually, first read everything you can on sharpening chisels and planes. Yes, it will seem confusing at first. Check youtube for videos. Then, depending on money and time, either do things by hand (cheaper but takes longer) or buy a grinder (cost some money, but speeds things up considerably). Tormek is probably top of the line but some would argue it's overkill for only a few tools.
I have restored to user status a lot of chisels and planes. I use a Tormek grinder to get a good edge square to the blade and at the desired angle. Then, I hone by hand on wet/dry sandpaper. Then a leather strop. I also have waterstones and diamonds if I need them.
Like so many things in life, there is no one answer. There are almost as many answers as there are people.
Alan - planesaw
Pardon if I missed it if some one already sugjested it but all I can add is that the white power grinder stones run allot cooler and cut faster. Also some like the belt sander in place of a grinding wheel for the same reason. Be careful not to snag the belt with the tip of the chisel.
See here under Sharpening Techniques
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/index.html
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 6/17/2009 12:12 am by roc
I grind when the bevel gets flatter. This way I never grind the cutting edge unless the edge is chipped.
The grinder in the picture is one I was able to get for my students at the time when I could not get a German hand grinder. Some people today use a mandrel driven by an electric motor.
Tell me sir, just where did you find such a hand grinder as that. That's great and I have not run across one such as that in my travels. Wouldn't mind having one of my own. :-)
Grinding is not necessary! A few people have mentioned doing it to cut down on time at stone, so you aren't sharpening whole face, but this is misleading. Doing the initial shaping at 2 or 3 degrees less than final honing means you are only honing the very tip of the blade when you register at final preferred angle. For me this is 30 on anything but paring chisels. This is referred to as a micro bevel.
I find the perfect set-up for me to be an extra course diamond stone (don't want that to be anything but flat and can be used to flatten ceramic stones), followed up with a shapton 500 grit ceramic. Initial honing is done with norton 1000/4000 combo. To polish I use a shapton 8000 ceramic stone (glassstone designed to sharpen harder metals such as A2). Once norton wears out i will go to ceramic exclusively. They cut faster and stay flat longer!
Chris
ps - if i simply need to touch up, i go straight to 4000 grit and skip the others.
Chris,
May I kindly suggest that your statement No grinding is necessary! is potentially wrong?! It all depends on what the blade looks like that you are starting with.
When you have restored as many chisels and planes as I have you see many of them come in horrible shape. They were sharpened with files, pieces of concrete, dropped, used to open cans, etc., etc. Some would take hours (not minutes) to get square and sharp before you could even begin to flatten and hone .
A grinder gets things square and to the desired angle in a few minutes. Then one can go from there to stones, scarey sharp or whatever. From that point on, grinding is not needed very frequently (rather, it all depends on the frequency and amount of use).
Alan
I stand corrected. However, the vast majority of us don't need a grinder for our everyday sharpening. Even when removing a small chip is necessary, an extra course diamond stone is sufficient. While less so than a 60 grit wheel, it is more effective than a tormek.Chris
Chris,
I agree that "everyday sharpening" doesn't generally require a grinder. My point was that one may find a grinder much faster if the chisel or blade is not square and has huge gouges when one starts. Once it is "sharpened" (grinder or freehand) to the desired angle, and square, then doing it by hand as needed works.
Regarding your comment on Tormeks, I trust you meant efficient?! Many methods (freehand or grinders) are equally effective. But not as efficient if one is talking time.
Hope you have a great weekend. We are getting tired of the rain.
Alan
Larry,
You got good feedback from knowledgeable people.
You noticed that there are differences of opinion.
That is to be expected in woodworking, as in all of life.
There is no one right way of doing sharpening or anything else.
My comments are "on a different plane" (ha ha) than the others. To me, the important thing is not which method you use, but that you "dive in" and try something, and try it long enough to get good at it. The worst thing you can do is wait around and fret about not knowing "which way is best".
I suggest you try a few different ways of sharpening, and learn the differences for yourself. This is easy if you have friends who are woodworkers. Surely one of them will let you try their diamondstones. You can try sandpaper. Try oilstones and waterstones.
Unfortunately, it takes a bunch of tries to get good at any of them. But after you master any one of them, the others come much easier and faster.
The MOST IMPORTANT thing about sharpening is TO CHECK YOUR PROGRESS FREQUENTLY as you go. After you get good at it, you can move much faster. I recommend you keep a magnifying glass around while sharpening. The magnifying glass will tell you if you are going too fast, or too slow, or not making any progress at all.
I have a grindstone, and a 1" belt sander, and power strops. I guarantee you that you can do a lot of damage very quickly with those. Of course, if you learn to use them well, you can also save a lot of time.
I heartily recommend that you buy a half dozen cheap chisels and old plane blades (very cheap) to practice on. Whatever you do, don't practice on expensive new chisels and irons (plane blades).
You will find that grinding a thick plane blade is a lot easier and more satisfying than a thin old Stanley. But after you get some skill, then grinding the thin old blades is not hard at all.
When grinding, I recommend dipping the blnade in watier before you grind. It cools the blade. There are lots of things to read and see on grinding. Try any of them on some old blades that you can pick up for next to nothing. After dipping in water, just go lightly back and forth once or twice, and check what you have done to the blade, and make an adjustment. Since you are practicing on junk, you cant do any expensive damage, and you will learn a lot, and you will learn fast.
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. GO SLOWLY. CHECK YOUR WORK AS YOU GO. USE OLD JUNK BLADES.
When grinding, the tips of your fingers on my left hand (I am right handed) are near the edge being ground, and they are not there to Press, but to check for warmth (NOT HEAT - YOU DON"T WANT HEAT). WHen you feel the tip getting warm, put the blade in water again. I use my right hand to grab the blade and ride along the blade rest. I don't take my right hand off the blade until I am finished.
To make grinding easier, I bought a Lee Valley Veritas, honing guide. The reason is that I wasn't sure of my ability to grind to a straight line all the way across the blade. So I just come as close as I can with the grinder, and then I put the blade in the Veritas, and I do the blade on sandpaper on glass. You get a perfectly straight and square edge. That works for me. You may find something else works for you.
When it comes to "grinding angle". Don't worry about getting a perfect 25 degrees or whatever angle you want. Just come close. The wood doesn't care if you are off by a little bit on the angle. As you get better at grinding, you will be able to get closer and closer to the angle you want, and you won't worry about it so much.
So PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE on old stuff, and check you progress and have fun.
IT will come. Sharpening is not hard. Go visit someone who is good at it. If you live anywhere near Washington, DC, I'd be happy to have you over and let you try my sharpening stuff and give you a lesson.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks to all that have taken the time to respond.
I really appreciate the experience and knowledge that is offered in this forum.
Thanks
Another little tip which I have found very useful.
If you colour the bevel with a felt-tip pen then you can easily see where you are removing metal from.
Dave,
Your tip about the magic marker is REALLY helpful for judging progress. You know, nothing new has been written about sharpening for a long long time, but people keep asking about it rather than doing a search. I guess asking is just easier and more obvious, since if you are new, you know know that sharpening has been covered before (about a thousand times). I have thought for a while that it is time for a "rewrite" of Tage Frid's Trilogy, but this time, it should be electronic and free. ALL of the important woodworking topics have been covered on Knots (again and again). It would be revolutionary if The FWW editors just made an index of all of the important topics, and then made pointers to past threads that covered them. The second step would be to actually change the thread into an organized "chapter", but that would take some time. Merely organizing a series of "thread pointers" would be quite easy (I think) and the resulting easy access to info would be a BOON to newbies to Knots, who just keep coming (and that is a great thing).I thought of not responding to this query because my response and the others have already been made so many times before, but I had some minutes on my hands and wrote it down again. As I get older, I tend to be less willing to do that. I am not really a Hard-nose, but I just typed "sharpening chisels" into Google, and within .32 seconds, it found 242,000 responses. I would bet some of them are recundant :-), but they sure were easy and fast to find. Anyway, rewriting the old Tage Frid trilogy as a set of pointers to Knots threads sounds fascinating to me.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A newbie is likely to become confused by the sheer volume of often contradictory information around.Moreover a lot about sharpening is non-intuitive.I am fortunate in that I have access to a top-notch engineering and maintainance department the members of which are always happy to give advice and direction. This, together with this forum, helped me to pick my way through the tangled thicket of information and come up with a sharpening system that works for me.A lot of other people are probably not as lucky especially if they do not work in the "right" industry.Unintuitive? I had always thought that one sharpened away from the edge, it didn't cross my mind that sandpaper was aggressive enough to wear away tool steel.....
"it didn't cross my mind that sandpaper was aggressive enough to wear away tool steel....."Pro knife & tool makers use the open belt sander all the time for sharpening.
Another lifetime ago I did auto body repair. Granted it's not tool steel, but wet-or-dry paper worked very well and it's what I use if I choose to on my chisels & planes.
Bear in mind that I was a newbie not so long ago. Now I've learned a little. I was trying to convey the confusion that a newbie feels.
Try machinist's dye! You'll never go back to the marker! The dye doesnt come off when it hits water...Chris
Marker is in the drawer. Dye is at the specialised hardware supplier. No contest :-)
Do you have a Grainger nearby? Most supply places should have it....Chris
What's a Grainger and what do I do with it when I catch one? :-)If you're referring to sandpaper, up to not terribly long ago sandpaper was something I smoothed wood with and rubbed rust off metal with.There is an old Maltese saying "The old hag does not want to die, because as she grows older she learns more"
Grainger is an industrial supply company in the US (http://www.grainger.com/). I don't think they have a Maltese branch.
-Steve
No, but we do have Wurth!Regards.
Try machinist's dye! You'll never go back to the marker! The dye doesnt come off when it hits water...+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++The Sharpie brand of markers are alcohol based and won't come off in water.Leon
Just depends on how bad the edge is. If you accidently get a chip, yeah you may have to grind a bit. But you can touch up the edge quite a few times just to dress it. Kind of like a few passes on a flat stone for your pocket knife periodically. If you do some serious hacking, like on a deep mortise, it might take a little more effort. But if you are doing some intricate cutting or light shaving, you can touch up the edge with sand paper quite a few times. Your biggest issue will be your bevel. The closer you maintain your bevel, the longer your edge wil last.
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